Author Topic: Does "baptism of desire" grant the grace of baptismspiritual rebirth? (Read 13153 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #25 on:** April 24, 2014, 10:50:56 AM »

Quote from: Nishant

Hi, Ladislaus. It is the minor above that is not entirely correct, in the passage mentioned, Trent is controverting the Protestants heretical notion of imputed justification. Trent says in those justified by water baptism, there is nothing that God hates, and nothing would prevent them from entering heaven immediately if they die.

No, Nishant, that's not what the text says. Trent CLEARLY defines being "born again" as entering into a state in which God "hates nothing", a state of complete innocence ... as the very term rebirth would imply.

Where did St. Thomas come up with this idea that temporal punishment isn't remitted by BoD anyway? Answer: He made it up. (it's pure speculation) There's no theological reason for why BoD wouldn't remit temporal punishment due to sin also. St. Alphonsus just likely followed St. Thomas on this without realizing that it contradicted Trent. St. Thomas / St. Alphonsus clearly speculated that one can enter into a state of justification without spiritual rebirth.

It's similar to how BoDers say that BoD does not produce the Christian Character. How do we know this? Why can't God in an extraordinary way confer this character also? In fact, I'd have a MUCH easier time with BoD if someone were to claim that it DOES confer this character.

If anything, I believe the OPPOSITE ... namely, that desire for Baptism and martyrdom can remit (at least some of) the TEMPORAL punishment due to sin but never Original Sin or the eternal guilt of sin.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #26 on:** April 24, 2014, 10:58:11 AM »

Sorry, Nishant, but I don't buy this. Here's the quote from Trent again:

Quote from: Trent

For in those who are born again God hates nothing

It does not say "For in those who are born again in Baptism God hates nothing". It says that "For in those who are born again God hates nothing." Despite the fact that it goes on later to speak about being born again in Baptism, that doesn't affect this passage whatsoever; it stands alone as a definition of rebirth. It's clearly defining the term "born again" according to its very obvious sense and meaning. How can someone be "born again" while still being polluted by past sins in any way? This is just obvious.

And it's the other passage in Trent that was less obvious, namely that there cannot be any justification without this rebirth. St. Thomas / St. Alphonsus claimed that there can be justification without rebirth.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #27 on:** April 24, 2014, 10:59:49 AM »

St. Thomas of course was writing before Trent. St. Alphonsus just likely picked up on this notion of St. Thomas without realizing that it had been subsequently contradicted by Trent.

patientiam · « **Reply #28 on:** April 24, 2014, 11:03:03 AM »

Quote from: Nishant

Edit:... Argh. The ink dried. Meant to say, to patientiam, "is the statement "creation cannot be effected without God's action or His Word's" not logically equivalent to the statement "creation can be effected by God's action or His Word's."

No, Nishant, the ink didn't dry, because you are using a computer. You attempt at humor actually demonstrates your profound dishonesty. Also, you can clearly see that the two statements are not logically equivalent at all. Your faith in man is cracking.

Nishant · « **Reply #29 on:** April 24, 2014, 11:04:08 AM »

Ladislaus, some issues.

1. This is the passage in question, which you cited, and it describes why this is so "For in those who are born again God hates nothing, because there is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism unto death." So is it really appropriate to apply this to BOD?

2. Baptism of desire is similar to an act of perfect love of God or of contrition. Therefore, it has the similar effect to perfect contrition, which as we know, (and is dogmatically defined) remits the eternal punishment entirely but the temporal punishment only in part, i.e. in proportion to the intensity with which God is loved, as the Doctors explain. Otherwise all Catholics who make an act of contrition will go to heaven immediately, which need not be the case.

3. Baptism of desire cannot effect the sacramental character for many reasons, but just one from the practice of the Church will suffice. It is taught that catechumens can receive justification by baptism of desire, but even these catechumens have to receive baptism when they can. But if they did receive the character, then this would not be so, for the Church teaches that it is precisely the character that forbids the repetition of the sacrament.

4. How is it possible for one in the state of original or mortal to receive the remission of temporal punishment, Ladislaus? Theology on indulgences, which are remissions of temporal punishment, and the conditions for receiving them, seems clearly to preclude that.