Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Poll

Can Protestants be saved, without becoming Catholic, at least in the hour of death?

Yes, they can be saved, as Protestants, provided invincible ignorance excuses them from heresy.
8 (19%)
I'm not sure if they can be saved. I assume they can be and so it's ok to leave them in ignorance.
0 (0%)
I'm not sure if they can be saved. I assume they can't be and thus I pray and work to convert them.
9 (21.4%)
No, Protestants cannot be saved without having become Catholic before death.
23 (54.8%)
Other (please explain).
2 (4.8%)

Total Members Voted: 34

Author Topic: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?  (Read 16736 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
« Reply #65 on: September 19, 2018, 06:57:55 PM »

Quote
PV:The above +ABL explanation is a contradiction.  As it is written, it’s not catholic. 

So one CI member declares that what ABL has written is "not Catholic."  In fact, says he, it is "a contradiction."  Very well.  Are there others? Somewhat ironical, I'd say.  CI is a site, many of whose members have a deep respect for ABL, and a devotion to his one time senior bishop, Richard Williamson, whom most of them now recognize as the head of the Resistance. 
Ladislaus and NO probably agree with you, though they withhold comment for the moment.  Let's see if we can lure them into the discussion.  Here is the rest of the quote from A Letter to Confused Christians.  I'd like to think that Abp. Lefebvre, whose name is etched on an interior wall at St. Peter's, might carry a bit more weight in this argument than the posts of anonymous individuals with usernames, who merely post on the internet.


Quote
Baptism of desire can be explicit. Many times in Africa I heard one of our catechumens say to me, “Father, baptize me straightaway because if I die before you come again, I shall go to hell.” I told him “No, if you have no mortal sin on your conscience and if you desire baptism, then you already have the grace in you.” 
 
 The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire.  This consists in doing the will of God.
 God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church. 
 
 The error consists in thinking that they are saved by their religion.  They are saved in their religion but not by it.
 There is no Buddhist church in heaven, no Protestant church. This is perhaps hard to accept, but it is the truth. I did not found the Church, but rather Our Lord the Son of God.  As priests we must state theTruth. 


Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
« Reply #66 on: September 19, 2018, 07:38:00 PM »
I think this is an interesting discussion. There are certainly differing opinions on this issue. I do not see any meaningful difference between Archbishop Lefebvre's position and that of the modernists on EENS. No meaningful difference whatsoever. And trads try to hurl the denial of EENS as one of the problems with Vatican II when their belief on EENS is almost exactly the same. Not exactly the same as the trads might think a hundred million people in the world today who do not believe in Jesus will be saved by BOD and the modernists think that four billion will be saved by BOD who do not believe in Jesus but the principle is the same. And the other difference is that the modernists are honest about it and openly reject EENS while the trads believe as the modernists do but pretend to cling to the dogma and give it lip-service. Perhaps I am guilty of this as well because I believe in some kind of limited BOD. So, Lefebvre here seems to be saying that many people who are not baptized but want to be baptized do not need baptism as they already have the grace within them and he tells them to rely on this an not worry? Okay. And he even gives this grace out to people who do not even believe even those who reject the Church like the Muslims. Okay. I disagree but everyone believes this today. But this belief goes back centuries and is not really new. I am no expert on Saint Thomas Aquinas but at one point I have seen quotes where he suggests that to receive Baptism of Desire one must believe in the central truths of the Catholic faith, but in another point he brings forth the idea that for all unbaptized children when they reach the age of reason their first rational act is to turn towards God and if they do they are justified (basically baptism of desire) or to turn away from God and commit a mortal sin. I always found this idea to be strange. This seems to be a contradiction to me. I wonder if Saint Thomas ever noticed this seeming contradiction and thought about it. It actually shocked me when I first read it because he was proposing BOD on such a large scale that it might even be more common and save more people than actual baptism. Then if every person who has reached the age of reason is offered BOD in their first rational moment, then why would God not give that same opportunity for those who die before the age of reason? Why not make it available to all? And at this point, when we go this far, I don't see how we can continue to claim that the sacraments are necessary for salvation and that EENS is true when more people are saved without the sacraments than with them and more people are saved outside the Church than within her, although we like to play games with words which completely deny their meaning while pretending to believe in them. "Yes, EENS is true but the Church is an invisible body that encompasses all men of good will (whatever that means) whether or not they believe in Jesus even if they deny Jesus and reject the Church outright (which is what is believed because they give BOD to Jews and Muslims) and not just the ignorant savages." But this is a strange argument. If you know me I tend to believe in BOD but think you have to believe in the Catholic faith to receive it and that it is not common so it should not be assumed or relied on.


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
« Reply #67 on: September 19, 2018, 08:34:31 PM »
So one CI member declares that what ABL has written is "not Catholic."  In fact, says he, it is "a contradiction."  Very well.  Are there others? 

Yes, it's a grave error, an almost word-for-word contradiction of the Church's dogmatic definitions of EENS.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
« Reply #68 on: September 19, 2018, 08:35:47 PM »
Ladislaus and NO probably agree with you, though they withhold comment for the moment.

Uhm, yeah, because I was out for the evening.  I've said this many times.

Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
« Reply #69 on: September 19, 2018, 08:42:05 PM »
So one CI member declares that what ABL has written is "not Catholic."  In fact, says he, it is "a contradiction."  Very well.  Are there others? Somewhat ironical, I'd say.  CI is a site, many of whose members have a deep respect for ABL, and a devotion to his one time senior bishop, Richard Williamson, whom most of them now recognize as the head of the Resistance.  
Ladislaus and NO probably agree with you, though they withhold comment for the moment.  Let's see if we can lure them into the discussion.  Here is the rest of the quote from A Letter to Confused Christians.  I'd like to think that Abp. Lefebvre, whose name is etched on an interior wall at St. Peter's, might carry a bit more weight in this argument than the posts of anonymous individuals with usernames, who merely post on the internet.

Look hollingsworth, Catholics believe in dogma and not in fallible men. And you cry like a heathen "oh vey, they touched my idols". Grow up!