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Poll

Can Protestants be saved, without becoming Catholic, at least in the hour of death?

Yes, they can be saved, as Protestants, provided invincible ignorance excuses them from heresy.
8 (19.5%)
I'm not sure if they can be saved. I assume they can be and so it's ok to leave them in ignorance.
0 (0%)
I'm not sure if they can be saved. I assume they can't be and thus I pray and work to convert them.
9 (22%)
No, Protestants cannot be saved without having become Catholic before death.
22 (53.7%)
Other (please explain).
2 (4.9%)

Total Members Voted: 34

Author Topic: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?  (Read 6038 times)

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Offline ihsv

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Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
« Reply #60 on: September 19, 2018, 02:21:11 PM »
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  • Yeah, terrific sermon.  Is that Father Bitzer?

    Yes, it is.

    His sermons are available on YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/c/OurLadyofthePillarChapel
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #61 on: September 19, 2018, 03:18:33 PM »
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  • Yes, it is.

    His sermons are available on YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/c/OurLadyofthePillarChapel

    He has a fantastic delivery due to the tenor of his voice (could be on the radio), and his content is spot on.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #62 on: September 19, 2018, 03:20:00 PM »
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  • .
    Another one:
    https://www.cathinfo.com/teen-catholic-hangout/funny-stuff/msg627206/#msg627206
    ..
    Me neither.

    Her screen name was changed, so that probably messes up some things.  She originally typoed it "chritsy" when she meant "christy".

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #63 on: September 19, 2018, 04:02:37 PM »
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  • Quote
    Lefebvre: Does that mean that no Protestant, no Muslim, no Buddhist or animist will be saved? No, it would be a second error to think that. Those who cry for intolerance in interpreting St. Cyprian’s formula, “Outside the Church there is no salvation,” also reject the Creed, “I confess one baptism for the remission of sins,” and are insufficiently instructed as to what baptism is. There are three ways of receiving it: the baptism of water; the baptism of blood (that of the martyrs who confessed the faith while still catechumens) and baptism of desire. 


    I would like folks like Ladislaus and NO to go on the record. Maybe you both have in the past, but I have no time to go through the accuмulated reams of babble on CI from the two of you true Catholic gents. The words above are reprinted, (perhaps for the third time), from the writings of ABL. Are you willing to testify for the record that the Archbishop was wrong, and, by extension, that Bp Williamson is wrong, including the three bishops whom the former has appointed? If so, please say so in clear words which all of us can understand. Please do not belabor us with unnecessary verbiage. I want succinct statements from you both that I can file away and have always at hand

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #64 on: September 19, 2018, 06:02:45 PM »
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  • The above +ABL explanation is a contradiction.  As it is written, it’s not catholic.  


    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #65 on: September 19, 2018, 06:57:55 PM »
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  • Quote
    PV:The above +ABL explanation is a contradiction.  As it is written, it’s not catholic. 

    So one CI member declares that what ABL has written is "not Catholic."  In fact, says he, it is "a contradiction."  Very well.  Are there others? Somewhat ironical, I'd say.  CI is a site, many of whose members have a deep respect for ABL, and a devotion to his one time senior bishop, Richard Williamson, whom most of them now recognize as the head of the Resistance. 
    Ladislaus and NO probably agree with you, though they withhold comment for the moment.  Let's see if we can lure them into the discussion.  Here is the rest of the quote from A Letter to Confused Christians.  I'd like to think that Abp. Lefebvre, whose name is etched on an interior wall at St. Peter's, might carry a bit more weight in this argument than the posts of anonymous individuals with usernames, who merely post on the internet.


    Quote
    Baptism of desire can be explicit. Many times in Africa I heard one of our catechumens say to me, “Father, baptize me straightaway because if I die before you come again, I shall go to hell.” I told him “No, if you have no mortal sin on your conscience and if you desire baptism, then you already have the grace in you.” 
     
     The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire.  This consists in doing the will of God.
     God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church. 
     
     The error consists in thinking that they are saved by their religion.  They are saved in their religion but not by it.
     There is no Buddhist church in heaven, no Protestant church. This is perhaps hard to accept, but it is the truth. I did not found the Church, but rather Our Lord the Son of God.  As priests we must state theTruth. 


    Offline Matto

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #66 on: September 19, 2018, 07:38:00 PM »
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  • I think this is an interesting discussion. There are certainly differing opinions on this issue. I do not see any meaningful difference between Archbishop Lefebvre's position and that of the modernists on EENS. No meaningful difference whatsoever. And trads try to hurl the denial of EENS as one of the problems with Vatican II when their belief on EENS is almost exactly the same. Not exactly the same as the trads might think a hundred million people in the world today who do not believe in Jesus will be saved by BOD and the modernists think that four billion will be saved by BOD who do not believe in Jesus but the principle is the same. And the other difference is that the modernists are honest about it and openly reject EENS while the trads believe as the modernists do but pretend to cling to the dogma and give it lip-service. Perhaps I am guilty of this as well because I believe in some kind of limited BOD. So, Lefebvre here seems to be saying that many people who are not baptized but want to be baptized do not need baptism as they already have the grace within them and he tells them to rely on this an not worry? Okay. And he even gives this grace out to people who do not even believe even those who reject the Church like the Muslims. Okay. I disagree but everyone believes this today. But this belief goes back centuries and is not really new. I am no expert on Saint Thomas Aquinas but at one point I have seen quotes where he suggests that to receive Baptism of Desire one must believe in the central truths of the Catholic faith, but in another point he brings forth the idea that for all unbaptized children when they reach the age of reason their first rational act is to turn towards God and if they do they are justified (basically baptism of desire) or to turn away from God and commit a mortal sin. I always found this idea to be strange. This seems to be a contradiction to me. I wonder if Saint Thomas ever noticed this seeming contradiction and thought about it. It actually shocked me when I first read it because he was proposing BOD on such a large scale that it might even be more common and save more people than actual baptism. Then if every person who has reached the age of reason is offered BOD in their first rational moment, then why would God not give that same opportunity for those who die before the age of reason? Why not make it available to all? And at this point, when we go this far, I don't see how we can continue to claim that the sacraments are necessary for salvation and that EENS is true when more people are saved without the sacraments than with them and more people are saved outside the Church than within her, although we like to play games with words which completely deny their meaning while pretending to believe in them. "Yes, EENS is true but the Church is an invisible body that encompasses all men of good will (whatever that means) whether or not they believe in Jesus even if they deny Jesus and reject the Church outright (which is what is believed because they give BOD to Jєωs and Muslims) and not just the ignorant savages." But this is a strange argument. If you know me I tend to believe in BOD but think you have to believe in the Catholic faith to receive it and that it is not common so it should not be assumed or relied on.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #67 on: September 19, 2018, 08:34:31 PM »
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  • So one CI member declares that what ABL has written is "not Catholic."  In fact, says he, it is "a contradiction."  Very well.  Are there others? 

    Yes, it's a grave error, an almost word-for-word contradiction of the Church's dogmatic definitions of EENS.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #68 on: September 19, 2018, 08:35:47 PM »
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  • Ladislaus and NO probably agree with you, though they withhold comment for the moment.

    Uhm, yeah, because I was out for the evening.  I've said this many times.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #69 on: September 19, 2018, 08:42:05 PM »
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  • So one CI member declares that what ABL has written is "not Catholic."  In fact, says he, it is "a contradiction."  Very well.  Are there others? Somewhat ironical, I'd say.  CI is a site, many of whose members have a deep respect for ABL, and a devotion to his one time senior bishop, Richard Williamson, whom most of them now recognize as the head of the Resistance.  
    Ladislaus and NO probably agree with you, though they withhold comment for the moment.  Let's see if we can lure them into the discussion.  Here is the rest of the quote from A Letter to Confused Christians.  I'd like to think that Abp. Lefebvre, whose name is etched on an interior wall at St. Peter's, might carry a bit more weight in this argument than the posts of anonymous individuals with usernames, who merely post on the internet.

    Look hollingsworth, Catholics believe in dogma and not in fallible men. And you cry like a heathen "oh vey, they touched my idols". Grow up!
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #70 on: September 19, 2018, 09:18:02 PM »
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  • Quote
    Lad: Yes, it's, (i.e. Lefebvre's position on EENS) a grave error, an almost word-for-word contradiction of the Church's dogmatic definitions of EENS.


    Quote
    struth: Look hollingsworth, Catholics believe in dogma and not in fallible men. And you cry like a heathen "oh vey, they touched my idols". Grow up!

    OK, we've got two of you on record.  Where's NO?  Laddy says that ABL was in "grave error."  And struth believes in dogma, not fallible men like ABL.  What a champion of the faith he is!
    How about you, Matthew?  Do you take a similar position?  Are you in the camp of these two theological CI giants? Do you reject "fallible men" like the Archbishop, while declaring unyielding, unwavering allegiance to true "dogma?"  This is your blog.  You reprint everything that +Williamson writes, who, along with the other bishops I am certain, holds the erroneous views of ABL.  Where do you stand, sir? After all, you say this is a Resistance site, and +W is the putative leader of that Resistance.  How about it?


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #71 on: September 19, 2018, 09:26:51 PM »
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  • @hollingsworth

    My thumb up for asking pertinent questions. Whether one believes in dogma or in fallible men.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #72 on: September 19, 2018, 09:36:07 PM »
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  • @hollingsworth


    Did you notice that we're in "The Feeneyism Ghetto" here? Like in the deepest part of hell, where noone can hear you?
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline poche

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #73 on: September 19, 2018, 10:40:36 PM »
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  • Don't you believe this ^^^^ lying crap poche.

    This is the truth:
    "The Doctrine of Exclusive Salvation is described as fundamental or "foundational" to Catholic theology. It is called the "Dogma of Faith," because, of a truth, unless a person accepts it in all its momentous absoluteness, he really does not accept the Catholic Faith, howsoever he protests that he does. Conversely, he who dilutes this doctrine to any degree, so radically distorts the Faith that he renders it null and void, and his own faith in the bargain. For he who denies this doctrine makes Catholicity hardly more than a nicety, as if membership in the Church were like the first-class compartment on a commercial airliner, in which the majority of others will arrive at the same destination, really none the worse for their second-class transport." - Fr. Wathen, Who Shall Ascend?
    In another place the soul describes the entry into Heaven of a woman who was not Catholic but who died making an act of perfect contrition, which was accepted by God.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #74 on: September 19, 2018, 11:43:48 PM »
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  • Hi Christy. I won't cite a theological text to you, but maybe you could read this remnant article, written by a now Traditional Catholic woman who was a little girl around the time of Vatican II. It shows how most Catholics, even little children, used to think and speak not that long ago. And the fruits were so good! +ABL says, in a 1966 letter, "conversions of pagans and Protestants were numerous".
    Quote
    "My friends knew all sorts of things about Heaven. It was amazing. It was like they shared some secret knowledge. There was no doubt in their minds that Heaven was a place, and they talked about it as if they had been there. I clamored to know more.
    They looked at each other, shook their heads, then looked sadly at me.
    “But you can’t go to Heaven,” they said.
    “Why not?”
    “’Cause you’re not Catholic.”
    “What do I have to do to be Catholic?”
    “You have to go to Catechism.”
    Those words struck my heart like an arrow. Even though I was not able to actually “go to Catechism” until I was a sophomore in college, I made up my mind right then. I would be Catholic. A real one, not just one saying the Nicene Creed in the whitewashed Episcopal Church, wondering how I could believe in the One Holy Catholic Church and not be in it.
    Those nine-year-old girls possessed the Truth, and they didn’t hesitate to let me know it. They told me what was necessary for salvation because I was their friend. They didn’t dilute the doctrine. I didn’t need to know about the exceptions. I just needed to be Catholic.
    Please spare me the nuances. They exist, I understand that. There can be people in Heaven that we didn’t think would be there. That’s good. I have no idea how the Lord goes about rescuing people at the last minute who didn’t enter the Church during their life. I don’t pretend to know how grace burns the unbelief from their minds before their souls depart this world, but I don’t have to know those extraordinary things. That’s God’s business.
    All I know is that every human being on this earth needs to be rescued from Hell. Our Lord died to secure a place for us in Heaven. He founded a Church, the One True Church which is necessary for the salvation of souls.
    If that’s not true, then everything we’re doing is a waste of time. Why should we fight so hard? Why should we hold so closely to Tradition? Why should we struggle to stand against the flood of immorality and despair that engulfs the world? What does it matter? What’s the point? If there is salvation outside the Catholic Church, then we don’t have to do anything. Just jump right back in the Sea of Unknowing.
    For myself, I’d rather be like my old friends, those valiant girls who first told me what I had to do to save my soul."
    https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/3931-where-have-all-the-catholics-gone

    Hi Stubborn. Yes, we have to be Catholic to be saved. We never pass final judgment, but we pray that God gives all souls the grace to become Catholic and repent of their sins and heresies before the end of their lives. And we work to deliver them from their error and help them enter the Church. I've cited two holy Priests Fr. Mueller and Fr. Damen. I can cite incidents in the lives of two Saintly Priests - St. John Marie Vianney and St. Padre Pio - where, beside the many souls they converted in life, these two Saints have informed or announced the hidden deathbed conversion of others whom the Saints and others in their family was praying for. True doctrine is important, and true doctrine is we all need to be Catholic to be saved; but doctrine without love of souls is dead, just like faith without works is dead, and bears no fruit. Fr. Damen made 10s of thousands of converts from Protestantism, and the love he had for the Protestant souls he ministered to and, by the grace of God, converted to the Faith, is evident. And love for souls is what is necessary for apostolates to bear fruit. Is the Church, even in Tradition, doing the same today? Every convert is a cause for joy, and a work of God's grace. But how many converts are we making and receiving? One reason is all of us are not praying and sacrificing for sinners and for conversions as much as Our Lord and Lady have asked. Those are works of love which we all should be doing more.

    Faith is important, but not faith alone; faith with works of love is necessary, as St. Paul says. So, also true doctrine, with love for souls.
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.