Q. What is the meaning of the word heretic?
A. Heretic is a Greek word, and means simply a chooser.
Q. Who, then, is a heretic?
A. A baptized person who chooses among the doctrines proposed to him by the Roman Catholic Church, to accept such doctrines as they please him, and to reject the rest.
Q. How do we know that heretics are not saved?
A. Because St. Paul the Apostle assures us that such a chooser or heretic is condemned. "A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid; knowing that he who is such an one is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment." Tit. iii. 10, 11.
Q. Are there any other reasons to show that heretics, or Protestants who die out of the Roman Catholic Church, are not saved?
A. There are several. They cannot be saved because
1. They have no divine faith.
2. They make a liar of Jesus Christ, of the holy Ghost, and of the Apostles.
3. They have no faith in Christ.
4. They fell away from the true Church of Christ.
5. They are too proud to submit to the Pope, the Vicar of Christ.
6. They cannot perform any good works whereby they can attain heaven.
7. They do not receive the Body and Blood of Christ.
8. They die in their sins.
9. They ridicule and blaspheme the Mother of God and His Saints.
10. They slander the spouse of Jesus Christ—the Catholic Church.
Q. Why is it that Protestants have no divine faith?
A. Because they do not believe God in those whom He has appointed to teach.
Q. Who is the teacher among Protestants?
A. Every one is his own teacher, his own law-giver and judge in matters of religion.
Q. Was there ever a time when God left men to themselves, to fashion their own religion, to invent their own creed, and their own form of worship?
A. No; from the beginning of the world God established on earth a visible teaching authority, to which it was the bounden duty of every man to submit.
Q. What follows from this?
A. That Protestants, by refusing to submit to that divine teaching authority, cannot have divine faith.
Q. What is the act of faith of a Protestant?
A. O my God, I believe nothing except what my own private judgment tells me to believe; therefore I believe that I can interpret Thy written word—the Holy Scriptures—as I choose. I believe that the Pope is anti-Christ; that any man can be saved, provided he is an honest man; I believe that faith alone is sufficient for salvation; that good works, and works of penance, and the confession of sins are not necessary, etc.
Q. Is this an act of divine faith?
A. It is rather a great blasphemy against God; it is the language of Luther, who, according to his own avowal, learned it from the devil ...Q. Who were the first Protestants?A. 1. Martin Luther, a bad German priest, who left his convent, broke the solemn vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience, which he had made to God, married a nun, and became the founder of the Lutherans.
2. Henry VIII., a bad Catholic king of England, who murdered his wives, and founded the Episcopalian or Anglican Church.
3. John Calvin, a wicked French Catholic, who was the founder of the Calvinists.
4. John Knox, a bad Scottish priest, who was the founder of the Presbyterians or Puritans.Q. What great crime did these wicked men commit?A. They rebelled against the Church of Jesus Christ, and caused a great number of their Catholic countrymen to follow their bad example.Q. What will be the punishment of those who wilfully rebel against the Holy Catholic Church?A. Like Lucifer, and the other rebellious angels, they will be cast into the everlasting flames of hell.Q. Who has assured us of this?A. Jesus Christ Himself, the Son of God.Q. What are His words?A. "He who will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and the publican." MAtt. xviii. 17.Q. What does Jesus Christ tell us in these words?A. He tells us plainly that he who is out of His Church, and does not obey her, is before Him as the heathen and publican.Q. What follows from this?A. It follows that, as the heathen is damned, so, also, all those will be damned who die out of the Church of Jesus Christ.
I am asking whether Protestants who do not receive the Body and Blood of the Lord can be saved? we must consider that, at least, a moral impossibility, on par with someone being raised from the dead. Fr. Mueller says Protestants who die as Protestants will be lost; the only possibility, therefore, of their salvation is a hidden deathbed conversion unknown to us.
Can Protestants be saved without becoming Catholic? we know some Protestants are baptized as infants. Justification is not the issue here. The issue is whether they can obtain the special grace the Doctors and the Church call final perseverance (the grace promised for e.g. by the Sacred Heart to all Catholic Christians to keep the Nine First Fridays, and by the Immaculate Heart Herself to all deeply devoted to Her by the Rosary, who keep the First Saturdays), a special form of which is the grace (since it is a grace, this means God alone gives it, and He can choose not to give it, unless Prots become Catholic first) never to commit mortal sin again (and this wondrous and most precious grace - which we should desire for ourselves and for our children with all our hearts, the Twin Hearts together promised to all who make a Great Double Novena of 9 First Fridays and 9 First Saturdays together, after Sacramental Confession and a good Preparation - please see http://lapieta.tripod.com/dnov_ena.html for more on that) which corresponds to a high state of merit, a high degree of grace. If a person attains this level of grace, especially in infancy or while still quite young, as Jesus so earnestly urges in the link, he can well hope to have a rich crown of merit in heaven.Remember, one of the sins that cannot be forgiven, is the sin of never having become a member of the Catholic Church. Those who die in this state, die outside of the Church, as such will always die with this mortal sin on their soul. You have the wrong idea of what Final Perseverance is.
[...]
So, can Protestants be saved, as Protestants? Can we agree at least that it is a moral impossibility to obtain final perseverance, without Holy Mass, without Holy Communion, without Eucharistic adoration - and especially when one has contempt and despises these things?
A baptized Protestant child under the age of 7 most likely would be saved. Through Baptism we are joined with the Church (and even Baptisms by heretics can be valid), it's only by the embracement of heresy that Protestants are separated from the Church. A child under 7 having not achieved the age of reason would be spared the sin of heresy AFAIK and therefore still count as a member of the Church. Although that would be in spite of the child being a Protestant..
Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.
Xavier:.
Anne Catherine Emmerich, the renowned German seer, testifies that she saw Protestant souls in Purgatory.
The answer to this is so obviously no that I cannot understand why you are asking the question.
If it were somehow possible for Protestants to be saved that would also mean that they were Catholic somehow . They cannot be saved as Protestants .
Hi, Jayne. No, I believe you are mistaken. I am asking whether Protestants who do not receive the Body and Blood of the Lord can be saved?
Xavier:
I certainly don't believe this. I don't care what "Fr. Mueller" says, (whoever he may be). How we, on this side of eternity, can make these glib assumptions is beyond me. Anne Catherine Emmerich, the renowned German seer, testifies that she saw Protestant souls in Purgatory.
You say "a moral impossibility, on par with someone being raised from the dead?" Really? And just who the heck are you, Xavier, to say such a thing? Sorry, no sale.
A baptised Protestant child under the age of 7 most likely would be saved. Through Baptism we are joined with the Church(and even Baptisms by heretics can be valid), it's only by the embracement of heresy that Protestants are separated from the Church. A child under 7 having not achieved the age of reason would be spared the sin of heresy AFAIK and therefore still count as a member of the Church. Although that would be in spite of the child being a Protestant.
Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.
There are no writings of Anna Katharina Emmerick. All there is are two dubious books written by the dubious poet and romanticist Clemens Brentano, who interviewed her at length.
A baptised Protestant child under the age of 7 most likely would be saved.
If there's sufficient invincible ignorance, this means that they are truly Catholic and not Protestant.
A baptised Protestant child under the age of 7 most likely would be saved. Through Baptism we are joined with the Church(and even Baptisms by heretics can be valid), it's only by the embracement of heresy that Protestants are separated from the Church. A child under 7 having not achieved the age of reason would be spared the sin of heresy AFAIK and therefore still count as a member of the Church. Although that would be in spite of the child being a Protestant.You are not wrong.
Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.
Hi, Jayne. No, I believe you are mistaken. I am asking whether Protestants who do not receive the Body and Blood of the Lord can be saved? we must consider that, at least, a moral impossibility, on par with someone being raised from the dead..
Read this again, Neil..
"Q. Are there any other reasons to show that heretics, or Protestants who die out of the Roman Catholic Church, are not saved?
A. There are several. They cannot be saved because
1. They have no divine faith.
2. They make a liar of Jesus Christ, of the holy Ghost, and of the Apostles.
3. They have no faith in Christ.
4. They fell away from the true Church of Christ.
5. They are too proud to submit to the Pope, the Vicar of Christ.
6. They cannot perform any good works whereby they can attain heaven.
7. They do not receive the Body and Blood of Christ.
8. They die in their sins.
9. They ridicule and blaspheme the Mother of God and His Saints.
10. They slander the spouse of Jesus Christ—the Catholic Church."
Not interested in getting into a meaningless squabble. Try to understand Fr. Mueller's point. There are many reasons, not just one, why heretics who die as heretics, will not be saved..
Fr.M: "There are several. They cannot be saved because ... They do not receive the Body and Blood of Christ."
Your reading comprehension must be less than nil. Someone more patient than me will have to help you..
This is the question Fr. Mueller was asking and answering. Q. Are there any other reasons to show that heretics, or Protestants who die out of the Roman Catholic Church, are not saved?
Go read the Catechism and the sources I've given again. You have given no source. And you're just interested in picking a fight.
No thanks.
If they are invincibly ignorant, they are material heretics.
Also, one could be invincibly ignorant and not culpable and still be a formal heretic.I'm having trouble getting my head around this one. Could you please give a hypothetical scenario in which this occurs.
I'm having trouble getting my head around this one. Could you please give a hypothetical scenario in which this occurs.
The teaching of the Church's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm) Doctors on this point has ever been the same, and it will suffice if we quote two passages from St. Thomas (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14663b.htm), who, however, has no set treatise on a question which he took for granted. "The formal object of faith", he says, "is the First Truth as manifested in Holy Scripture (http://www.newadvent.org/bible) and in the Church's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm) teaching. Hence if anyone does not adhere as to an infallible (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm) and Divine rule to the Church's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm) teaching, which proceeds from the Church's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm) truth (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15073a.htm) manifested in Holy Scripture (http://www.newadvent.org/bible), such an one has not the habit of faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm), but holds the truths (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15073a.htm) of faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) not by faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) but by some other principle" (II-II, Q. v, a. 3)
I have said that out of the Church there can be no Divine Faith. What is Divine Faith? When we believe a thing upon the authority of God, and believe it without doubt, without hesitating. Now, all our separated brethren outside of the Catholic Church take the private interpretation of the Bible for their guide; but the private interpretation of the Bible can never give them Divine Faith ... On what does he believe? On what authority? On his own opinion and judgment. And what is that? A human opinion, human testimony, and, therefore, a human faith. He cannot say positively, "I am sure, positively sure, as sure as there is a God in heaven, that this is the meaning of the text." Therefore, he has no other authority but his own opinion and judgment, and what his preacher tells him. But the preacher is a smart man. There are many smart Unitarian preachers, also, but that proves nothing; it is only human authority, and nothing else, and, therefore, only human faith. What is human faith? Believing a thing on the testimony of man. Divine Faith is believing on the testimony of God.
II.
The Catholic has Divine Faith, and why? Because the Catholic says: "I believe in such and such a thing." Why? "Because the Church teaches me so." And why do you believe the Church? "Because God has commanded me to believe the teaching of the Church; and God has threatened me with damnation if I do not believe the Church, and we are taught by St. Peter, in his epistle, that there is no private prophecy or interpretation of the Scriptures, for the unlearned and unstable wrest the very Scriptures, the Bible, to their own damnation."
That is strong language, my dear people, but that is the language of St. Peter, the head of the Apostles....And, therefore, my dearly beloved separated brethren, think over it seriously. You have a soul to be saved, and that soul must be saved or damned; either one or the other, it will dwell with God in heaven or with the devil in hell; therefore, seriously meditate upon it.
When I gave my Mission in Brooklyn several Protestants became Catholics. Among them there was a very highly educated and intelligent Virginian. He was a Presbyterian. After he had listened to my lecture he went to see his minister, and he asked him to be kind enough to explain a text of the Bible. The minister gave him the meaning. "Well, now," said the gentleman, "are you positive and sure that is the meaning of the text, for several other Protestants explain it differently?" "Why, my dear young man," says the preacher, "we never can be certain of our faith." "Well, then," says the young man, "good-bye to you: If I cannot be sure of my faith in the Protestant church, I will go where I can." And he became a Catholic ... I have said this evening hard things, but if St. Paul were here tonight, in this pulpit, he would have said harder things still. I have said them, however, not through a spirit of unkindness, but through a spirit of love, and a spirit of charity, in the hope of opening your eyes that your souls my be saved. It is love for your salvation, my dearly beloved Protestant brethren, for which I would gladly give my heart's blood; my love for your salvation that has made me preach to you as I have done.
Thanks, Ladislaus, for the concern. I appreciate it. But I'm not too worried about it - I think there are only slight misunderstandings of some of the issues involved and most Traditional Catholics would agree about the best approach for the Church to take if some small difficulties were cleared up.
You'll be surprised at how much animosity you'll find against the position that Protestants as Protestants cannot be saved.
Q. Are all those who are out of the Church equally guilty and damnable before God?A. No; some are more guilty than others.Q. Who are least guilty and damnable?A. Those who, without any fault of theirs, do not know Jesus Christ or His doctrine at all.Q. Who are most guilty and damnable?A. Those who know the Catholic Church to be the only true Church, but do not embrace her faith, as also those who could know her if they would candidly search, but who, through indifference and other culpable motives, neglect to do so.Q. What are we to think of the salvation of those who are out of the pale of the Church without any fault of theirs, and who never had any opportunity of knowing better?A. Their inculpable ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in His infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the Catholic faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance.Q. Is it then right for us to say that one who was not received into the Church before his death, is damned?A. No.Q. Why not?A. Because we cannot know for certain what takes place between God and the soul at the awful moment of death.Q. What do you mean by this?A. I mean that God, in His infinite mercy, may enlighten, at the hour of death, one who is not yet a Catholic, so that he may see the truth of the Catholic faith, be truly sorry for his sins, and sincerely desire to die a good Catholic.Q. What do we say of those who receive such an extraordinary grace, and die in this manner?A. We say of them that they die united, at least, to the soul of the Catholic Church, and are saved.Q. What, then, awaits all those who are out of the Catholic Church, and die without having received such an extraordinary grace at the hour of death?A. Eternal damnation.
Fr. Mueller is quite clear at the same time that we cannot pass final judgment on any other soul, but we can and must pray and work for their conversion and salvation. If a soul receives the grace of a deathbed conversion, he or she would receive justification and perseverance together.No, we cannot pass final judgement, but we must believe and can repeat what the Church herself infallibly teaches about one who dies outside the Church. In that situation, unless one is baptized (in the case of an infidel), or instructed in the Catholic faith and accepts the faith prior to death, there is no hope of the grace of a deathbed conversion so called. The person cannot save himself nor can he be saved without first accepting the truths of the Catholic faith.
Q. What are we to think of the salvation of those who are out of the pale of the Church without any fault of theirs, and who never had any opportunity of knowing better?Here is a good example of what Fr. Mueller is talking about:
A. Their inculpable ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in His infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the Catholic faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance.
Seriously?Outside of the Church There is Absolutely No Salvation
Of course Protestants can be saved.
If someone is a Protestant yet totally believes that they are in the right religion, and have not been properly exposed to Catholicism, they can be saved.
The error and sin only begins once they have a doubt, that they did not research, or they know they are not in the right religion.
It is absurd to believe that so many thousand of good-willed people go to hell.
Seriously?
Of course Protestants can be saved.
If someone is a Protestant yet totally believes that they are in the right religion, and have not been properly exposed to Catholicism, they can be saved.
The error and sin only begins once they have a doubt, that they did not research, or they know they are not in the right religion.
It is absurd to believe that so many thousand of good-willed people go to hell.
christy must have been a troll, I clicked on her name and it says this:No she just changed her username.
The user whose profile you are trying to view does not exist.
No she just changed her username..
Seriously?Who is more "good willed" and do not "know they are not in the right religion" than an unbaptized baby or a totally mentally handicapped? Yet they are not saved if the are not baptized.
Of course Protestants can be saved.
If someone is a Protestant yet totally believes that they are in the right religion, and have not been properly exposed to Catholicism, they can be saved.
The error and sin only begins once they have a doubt, that they did not research, or they know they are not in the right religion.
It is absurd to believe that so many thousand of good-willed people go to hell.
Do You Believe Protestants as Protestants Can be Saved?Today, the majority of people who call themselves Protestants in the USA, are not baptized. Keep that in mind.
Seriously?If the writer believes what he wrote then he has to also believe that:
Of course Protestants can be saved.
If someone is a Protestant yet totally believes that they are in the right religion, and have not been properly exposed to Catholicism, they can be saved.
The error and sin only begins once they have a doubt, that they did not research, or they know they are not in the right religion.
It is absurd to believe that so many thousand of good-willed people go to hell.
Seriously?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EEv5DkrVeE
Of course Protestants can be saved.
If someone is a Protestant yet totally believes that they are in the right religion, and have not been properly exposed to Catholicism, they can be saved.
The error and sin only begins once they have a doubt, that they did not research, or they know they are not in the right religion.
It is absurd to believe that so many thousand of good-willed people go to hell.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EEv5DkrVeE
From a soul in Purgatory;Don't you believe this ^^^^ lying crap poche.
Are many Protestants saved?
By the mercy of God a certain number of Protestants are saved, but their Purgatory is for many long and rigorous. It is true they have not abused grace like many Catholics, but neither have they had the marvelous graces of the sacraments and the other helps of the true religion, thus their expiation in Purgatory is prolonged.
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6253 (http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6253)
christy must have been a troll, I clicked on her name and it says this:.
The user whose profile you are trying to view does not exist.
From a soul in Purgatory;.
Are many Protestants saved?
By the mercy of God a certain number of Protestants are saved, but their Purgatory is for many long and rigorous. It is true they have not abused grace like many Catholics, but neither have they had the marvelous graces of the sacraments and the other helps of the true religion, thus their expiation in Purgatory is prolonged.
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6253 (http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6253)
.I don't understand how that works. The poster who doesn't exist still posts. ;)
In the past 2 days, this same "christy" (the user who ostensibly does not exist) has made 3 more posts:
.
https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/hurricane-florence-please-pray-for-us!/msg626991/#msg626991
.
https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/let-us-empty-purgatory!/msg626990/#msg626990
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https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/introduce-yourself!/msg626864/#msg626864
You would have to be scraping the bottom of the barrel to find trash like this.I am more inclined to believe the testimony of an anonymous soul in Purgatory than the prolix rantings of certain members of CI
The source even explains this is from a merely historical docuмent that is a private writing having no bearing on Church teaching.
The author is "unknown."
NO: I am more inclined to believe the testimony of an anonymous soul in Purgatory than the prolix rantings of certain members of CIThere's tons of dogma that have been posted here. What you are doing is called grasping for straws.
NO: I am more inclined to believe the testimony of an anonymous soul in Purgatory ...
NO: I am more inclined to believe the testimony of an anonymous soul in Purgatory thanthe prolix rantings of certain members of CIChurch teaching.
christy must have been a troll, I clicked on her name and it says this:.
The user whose profile you are trying to view does not exist.
I don't understand how that works. The poster who doesn't exist still posts. ;).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EEv5DkrVeE.
..
You would have to be scraping the bottom of the barrel to find trash like this.
The source even explains this is from a merely historical docuмent that is a private writing having no bearing on Church teaching.
The author is "unknown."
.
An Unpublished Manuscript on Purgatory
by Unknown (https://www.catholicculture.org/search/resultslist.cfm?requesttype=docbrowseauth&resourcetype=1&catlabel=author&catid=1147)
DESCRIPTION
This pamphlet, describing alleged conversations between a nun and a soul in Purgatory, brings to light many aspects of the mysterious purification souls undergo before entering Heaven.
PUBLISHER & DATE The Reparation Society of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, Inc., December 26, 1967
Note: In conformity with the decrees of Pope Urban VIII, the author formally declares that the preternatural or seemingly supernatural facts recorded in this historical narrative rest on purely human authority, and consequently he does not in any way intend to pronounce a final judgment, or to anticipate any future decision of lawful Church authority as to their nature.
Introduction
At the expressed desire of the Directors of the Bulletin "Notre Dame de la Bonne Mort," this pamphlet is published with all the reservations ordered by the Church in the decree of Urban VIII, and as a purely historical docuмent.
It was sent to that periodical by a zealous and devout missionary and is a pious docuмent based on alleged conversations between a nun and a soul in Purgatory.
...
Finally they were impressed by the living Sister's great progress in the work of her sanctification. So remarkable was this that on reading the manuscript Canon Dubosq said, "In publishing this Manuscript, as I heartily approve, you are anticipating a cause of beatification."...
.
[So, they were anticipating beatification, eh? Well that didn't happen! Maybe Bishop-of-Rome Francis can get that remedied!]
Yeah, terrific sermon. Is that Father Bitzer?Yes, it is.
Yes, it is.
His sermons are available on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/OurLadyofthePillarChapel (https://www.youtube.com/c/OurLadyofthePillarChapel)
.
Another one:
https://www.cathinfo.com/teen-catholic-hangout/funny-stuff/msg627206/#msg627206
..
Me neither.
Lefebvre: Does that mean that no Protestant, no Muslim, no Buddhist or animist will be saved? No, it would be a second error to think that. Those who cry for intolerance in interpreting St. Cyprian’s formula, “Outside the Church there is no salvation,” also reject the Creed, “I confess one baptism for the remission of sins,” and are insufficiently instructed as to what baptism is. There are three ways of receiving it: the baptism of water; the baptism of blood (that of the martyrs who confessed the faith while still catechumens) and baptism of desire.
PV:The above +ABL explanation is a contradiction. As it is written, it’s not catholic.
Baptism of desire can be explicit. Many times in Africa I heard one of our catechumens say to me, “Father, baptize me straightaway because if I die before you come again, I shall go to hell.” I told him “No, if you have no mortal sin on your conscience and if you desire baptism, then you already have the grace in you.”
The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church.
The error consists in thinking that they are saved by their religion. They are saved in their religion but not by it. There is no Buddhist church in heaven, no Protestant church. This is perhaps hard to accept, but it is the truth. I did not found the Church, but rather Our Lord the Son of God. As priests we must state theTruth.
So one CI member declares that what ABL has written is "not Catholic." In fact, says he, it is "a contradiction." Very well. Are there others?
Ladislaus and NO probably agree with you, though they withhold comment for the moment.
So one CI member declares that what ABL has written is "not Catholic." In fact, says he, it is "a contradiction." Very well. Are there others? Somewhat ironical, I'd say. CI is a site, many of whose members have a deep respect for ABL, and a devotion to his one time senior bishop, Richard Williamson, whom most of them now recognize as the head of the Resistance.
Ladislaus and NO probably agree with you, though they withhold comment for the moment. Let's see if we can lure them into the discussion. Here is the rest of the quote from A Letter to Confused Christians. I'd like to think that Abp. Lefebvre, whose name is etched on an interior wall at St. Peter's, might carry a bit more weight in this argument than the posts of anonymous individuals with usernames, who merely post on the internet.
Lad: Yes, it's, (i.e. Lefebvre's position on EENS) a grave error, an almost word-for-word contradiction of the Church's dogmatic definitions of EENS.
struth: Look hollingsworth, Catholics believe in dogma and not in fallible men. And you cry like a heathen "oh vey, they touched my idols". Grow up!
Don't you believe this ^^^^ lying crap poche.In another place the soul describes the entry into Heaven of a woman who was not Catholic but who died making an act of perfect contrition, which was accepted by God.
This is the truth:
"The Doctrine of Exclusive Salvation is described as fundamental or "foundational" to Catholic theology. It is called the "Dogma of Faith," because, of a truth, unless a person accepts it in all its momentous absoluteness, he really does not accept the Catholic Faith, howsoever he protests that he does. Conversely, he who dilutes this doctrine to any degree, so radically distorts the Faith that he renders it null and void, and his own faith in the bargain. For he who denies this doctrine makes Catholicity hardly more than a nicety, as if membership in the Church were like the first-class compartment on a commercial airliner, in which the majority of others will arrive at the same destination, really none the worse for their second-class transport." - Fr. Wathen, Who Shall Ascend?
"My friends knew all sorts of things about Heaven. It was amazing. It was like they shared some secret knowledge. There was no doubt in their minds that Heaven was a place, and they talked about it as if they had been there. I clamored to know more.https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/3931-where-have-all-the-catholics-gone
They looked at each other, shook their heads, then looked sadly at me.
“But you can’t go to Heaven,” they said.
“Why not?”
“’Cause you’re not Catholic.”
“What do I have to do to be Catholic?”
“You have to go to Catechism.”
Those words struck my heart like an arrow. Even though I was not able to actually “go to Catechism” until I was a sophomore in college, I made up my mind right then. I would be Catholic. A real one, not just one saying the Nicene Creed in the whitewashed Episcopal Church, wondering how I could believe in the One Holy Catholic Church and not be in it.
Those nine-year-old girls possessed the Truth, and they didn’t hesitate to let me know it. They told me what was necessary for salvation because I was their friend. They didn’t dilute the doctrine. I didn’t need to know about the exceptions. I just needed to be Catholic.
Please spare me the nuances. They exist, I understand that. There can be people in Heaven that we didn’t think would be there. That’s good. I have no idea how the Lord goes about rescuing people at the last minute who didn’t enter the Church during their life. I don’t pretend to know how grace burns the unbelief from their minds before their souls depart this world, but I don’t have to know those extraordinary things. That’s God’s business.
All I know is that every human being on this earth needs to be rescued from Hell. Our Lord died to secure a place for us in Heaven. He founded a Church, the One True Church which is necessary for the salvation of souls.
If that’s not true, then everything we’re doing is a waste of time. Why should we fight so hard? Why should we hold so closely to Tradition? Why should we struggle to stand against the flood of immorality and despair that engulfs the world? What does it matter? What’s the point? If there is salvation outside the Catholic Church, then we don’t have to do anything. Just jump right back in the Sea of Unknowing.
For myself, I’d rather be like my old friends, those valiant girls who first told me what I had to do to save my soul."
In another place the soul describes the entry into Heaven of a woman who was not Catholic but who died making an act of perfect contrition, which was accepted by God.In light of the dogma, which binds us to believing under pain of mortal sin that there is no salvation outside the Church, how is it that you are able to believe that a woman who was not Catholic, was able to even make an act of perfect contrition at all? - and on that account, made it to heaven. To believe that both the story and the dogma are true, is ipso facto to deny that one of them, the dogma, is true. Which is to say that if the non-Catholic was saved, then the dogma is a lie.
In another place the soul describes the entry into Heaven of a woman who was not Catholic but who died making an act of perfect contrition, which was accepted by God.Poche,
OK, we've got two of you on record. Where's NO? Laddy says that ABL was in "grave error." And struth believes in dogma, not fallible men like ABL. What a champion of the faith he is!
How about you, Matthew? Do you take a similar position? Are you in the camp of these two theological CI giants? Do you reject "fallible men" like the Archbishop, while declaring unyielding, unwavering allegiance to true "dogma?" This is your blog. You reprint everything that +Williamson writes, who, along with the other bishops I am certain, holds the erroneous views of ABL. Where do you stand, sir? After all, you say this is a Resistance site, and +W is the putative leader of that Resistance. How about it?
In light of the dogma, which binds us to believing under pain of mortal sin that there is no salvation outside the Church, how is it that you are able to believe that a woman who was not Catholic, was able to even make an act of perfect contrition at all? - and on that account, made it to heaven. To believe that both the story and the dogma are true, is ipso facto to deny that one of them, the dogma, is true. Which is to say that if the non-Catholic was saved, then the dogma is a lie.
The only way anyone can believe the story, is to disbelieve the dogma, which is a sin. It is impossible to believe that both the dogma and the story are both true. That is, it is impossible to believe the dogma that non-Catholics cannot be saved, while at the same time believe that a non-Catholic was saved without denying the dogma.
For, if you understand by the expression material heretic one who, while professing subjection to the Church's Magisterium in matters of faith, nevertheless still denies something defined by the Church because he did not know it was defined, or,This is not applicable to protestants because they either know the magisterium exists or they reject its authority.
by the same token, holds an opinion opposed to Catholic doctrine because he falsely thinks that the Church teaches it, it would be quite absurd to place material heretics outside the body of the true Church;A protestant can't believe that the Church teaches something if they are "invincibly ignorant" that the Church exists.
while material heretics are those who, being in invincible ignorance of the Church herself, in good faith choose some other guiding rule.This contradicts the middle quote. He says that Protestants can only be material heretics if they are ignorant of the Church.
In light of the dogma, which binds us to believing under pain of mortal sin that there is no salvation outside the Church, how is it that you are able to believe that a woman who was not Catholic, was able to even make an act of perfect contrition at all? - and on that account, made it to heaven. To believe that both the story and the dogma are true, is ipso facto to deny that one of them, the dogma, is true. Which is to say that if the non-Catholic was saved, then the dogma is a lie.I heard asimilar story about Edwin Edwards. He was αssαssιnαtҽd. When he was shot he was brought to a Catholic hospital. The nun asked him if he wanted to see a priest. He said, "No sister, I am not a Catholic." The sister held his hand and led him in making an act of perfect contrition. I believe this sister helped him to make his peace with God and that he could well be in Purgatory if not in Heaven by now. If the religious sister more than 80 years ago who probably never heard the word VaticanII during her lifetime thought that because he wasn't a Catholic he would go straight to Hell tehn why would she waste her time leading him in making an act of perfect contrition?
The only way anyone can believe the story, is to disbelieve the dogma, which is a sin. It is impossible to believe that both the dogma and the story are both true. That is, it is impossible to believe the dogma that non-Catholics cannot be saved, while at the same time believe that a non-Catholic was saved without denying the dogma.
I heard asimilar story about Edwin Edwards. He was αssαssιnαtҽd. When he was shot he was brought to a Catholic hospital. The nun asked him if he wanted to see a priest. He said, "No sister, I am not a Catholic." The sister held his hand and led him in making an act of perfect contrition. I believe this sister helped him to make his peace with God and that he could well be in Purgatory if not in Heaven by now. If the religious sister more than 80 years ago who probably never heard the word VaticanII during her lifetime thought that because he wasn't a Catholic he would go straight to Hell tehn why would she waste her time leading him in making an act of perfect contrition?
The question is, can someone who is a material heretic obtain the grace of final perseverance? The answer Fr. Mueller and other theologians give is, if he co-operates with the graces God gives him, God in His mercy will give him that grace, by enabling him to repent of his Protestant heresies before death. But He won't give final perseverance to someone who has not become a Catholic.
Material heretics, per the explanation of Cardinal Billot, can be in the state of grace. But they will either be lost for other mortal sins and thus perish in them as Protestants, or if they co-operate with God Who wants them to be converted and saved, they will be converted.
Thus the statement of Pope Gregory XVI that "men are saved only in the Catholic religion" and that heretics do not attain eternal life.
But the nature of heresy consists in withdrawal from the rule of the ecclesiastical Magisterium and this does not take place in the case mentioned [of someone who is resolved to believe all that the Church teaches but makes a mistake as to what her teaching consists in], since this is a simple error of fact concerning what the rule dictates. And therefore there is no scope for heresy, even materially."
So poche does theology based upon the sentiments of a nun.It is not for me to judge. I leave everything to the mercy of God and I ask Him for a merciful judgement.
This error long predates Vatican II, and it was in fact the cause of Vatican II.
So, poche, how do you explain this particular story in light of the dogma that there's no salvation outside the Catholic Church?
It is not for me to judge. I leave everything to the mercy of God and I ask Him for a merciful judgement.
So it's not for you to affirm Catholic dogma. Duly noted.It is not that I refuse to affirm Catholic dogma. It is that I do not sit in the place of God.
It is not that I refuse to affirm Catholic dogma. It is that I do not sit in the place of God.