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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => The Feeneyism Ghetto => Topic started by: Nishant Xavier on September 16, 2018, 04:30:40 AM

Title: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Nishant Xavier on September 16, 2018, 04:30:40 AM
Can Protestants be saved without becoming Catholic? we know some Protestants are baptized as infants. Justification is not the issue here. The issue is whether they can obtain the special grace the Doctors and the Church call final perseverance (the grace promised for e.g. by the Sacred Heart to all Catholic Christians to keep the Nine First Fridays, and by the Immaculate Heart Herself to all deeply devoted to Her by the Rosary, who keep the First Saturdays), a special form of which is the grace (since it is a grace, this means God alone gives it, and He can choose not to give it, unless Prots become Catholic first) never to commit mortal sin again (and this wondrous and most precious grace - which we should desire for ourselves and for our children with all our hearts, the Twin Hearts together promised to all who make a Great Double Novena of 9 First Fridays and 9 First Saturdays together, after Sacramental Confession and a good Preparation - please see http://lapieta.tripod.com/dnov_ena.html for more on that) which corresponds to a high state of merit, a high degree of grace. If a person attains this level of grace, especially in infancy or while still quite young, as Jesus so earnestly urges in the link, he can well hope to have a rich crown of merit in heaven.

In the Gospel, Jesus seems to plainly connect eating His flesh with obtaining final perseverance and eternal life. For again and again, He refers to Himself as the Bread of life, and He speaks of those who ate manna but lost their souls, but promises those who devoutly and frequently receive this Bread of the Eucharist will obtain eternal life. He says they will live and grow in union with Him as He is one with the Father. And it is the privilege of Catholic Christians alone to receive of the Holy Eucharist in Holy Mass by Holy Communion. At the same time, He threatens those who refuse to do with eternal damnation.

6:47-59 "Amen, amen, I say unto you: He that believeth in Me hath everlasting life. I am the Bread of Life. Your fathers did eat manna in the desert: and are dead. This is the Bread which cometh down from heaven: that if any man eat of it, he may not die. I am the living Bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this Bread, he shall live for ever: and the Bread that I will give is My flesh, for the life of the world. The Jєωs therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us His flesh to eat?

Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth My flesh and drinketh My blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For My flesh is meat indeed: and My blood is drink indeed. He that eateth My flesh and drinketh My blood abideth in Me: and I in him. As the living Father hath sent Me and I live by the Father: so he that eateth Me, the same also shall live by Me. This is the Bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna and are dead. He that eateth this bread shall live for ever.

(amen amen dico vobis qui credit in me habet vitam aeternam ego sum panis vitae patres vestri manducaverunt in deserto manna et mortui sunt hic est panis de caelo descendens ut si quis ex ipso manducaverit non moriatur ego sum panis vivus qui de caelo descendi si quis manducaverit ex hoc pane vivet in aeternum et panis quem ego dabo caro mea est pro mundi vita litigabant ergo Iudaei ad invicem dicentes quomodo potest hic nobis carnem suam dare ad manducandum dixit ergo eis Iesus amen amen dico vobis nisi manducaveritis carnem Filii hominis et biberitis eius sanguinem non habetis vitam in vobis qui manducat meam carnem et bibit meum sanguinem habet vitam aeternam et ego resuscitabo eum in novissimo die caro enim mea vere est cibus et sanguis meus vere est potus qui manducat meam carnem et bibit meum sanguinem in me manet et ego in illo sicut misit me vivens Pater et ego vivo propter Patrem et qui manducat me et ipse vivet propter me hic est panis qui de caelo descendit non sicut manducaverunt patres vestri manna et mortui sunt qui manducat hunc panem vivet in aeternum)

So, can Protestants be saved, as Protestants? Can we agree at least that it is a moral impossibility to obtain final perseverance, without Holy Mass, without Holy Communion, without Eucharistic adoration - and especially when one has contempt and despises these things?
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Jaynek on September 16, 2018, 09:02:28 AM
The answer to this is so obviously no that I cannot understand why you are asking the question. 

If it were somehow possible for Protestants to be saved that would also mean that they were Catholic somehow .  They cannot be saved as Protestants .
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Nishant Xavier on September 16, 2018, 10:04:21 AM
Hi, Jayne. No, I believe you are mistaken. I am asking whether Protestants who do not receive the Body and Blood of the Lord can be saved? we must consider that, at least, a moral impossibility, on par with someone being raised from the dead. Fr. Mueller says Protestants who die as Protestants will be lost; the only possibility, therefore, of their salvation is a hidden deathbed conversion unknown to us. This can happen, and it will be good if it happens, and we should pray for it to happen; since it too if it happens, will not happen without the prayers of the Church, and without the soul renouncing his or her Protestant errors. 

Quote
Q. What is the meaning of the word heretic?
A. Heretic is a Greek word, and means simply a chooser.
Q. Who, then, is a heretic?
A. A baptized person who chooses among the doctrines proposed to him by the Roman Catholic Church, to accept such doctrines as they please him, and to reject the rest.
Q. How do we know that heretics are not saved?
A. Because St. Paul the Apostle assures us that such a chooser or heretic is condemned. "A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid; knowing that he who is such an one is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment." Tit. iii. 10, 11.
Q. Are there any other reasons to show that heretics, or Protestants who die out of the Roman Catholic Church, are not saved?
A. There are several. They cannot be saved because
1. They have no divine faith.
2. They make a liar of Jesus Christ, of the holy Ghost, and of the Apostles.
3. They have no faith in Christ.
4. They fell away from the true Church of Christ.
5. They are too proud to submit to the Pope, the Vicar of Christ.
6. They cannot perform any good works whereby they can attain heaven.
7. They do not receive the Body and Blood of Christ.
8. They die in their sins.
9. They ridicule and blaspheme the Mother of God and His Saints.
10. They slander the spouse of Jesus Christ—the Catholic Church.

Q. Why is it that Protestants have no divine faith?
A. Because they do not believe God in those whom He has appointed to teach.
Q. Who is the teacher among Protestants?
A. Every one is his own teacher, his own law-giver and judge in matters of religion.
Q. Was there ever a time when God left men to themselves, to fashion their own religion, to invent their own creed, and their own form of worship?
A. No; from the beginning of the world God established on earth a visible teaching authority, to which it was the bounden duty of every man to submit.
Q. What follows from this?
A. That Protestants, by refusing to submit to that divine teaching authority, cannot have divine faith.
Q. What is the act of faith of a Protestant?
A. O my God, I believe nothing except what my own private judgment tells me to believe; therefore I believe that I can interpret Thy written word—the Holy Scriptures—as I choose. I believe that the Pope is anti-Christ; that any man can be saved, provided he is an honest man; I believe that faith alone is sufficient for salvation; that good works, and works of penance, and the confession of sins are not necessary, etc.
Q. Is this an act of divine faith?
A. It is rather a great blasphemy against God; it is the language of Luther, who, according to his own avowal, learned it from the devil ...

Q. Who were the first Protestants?
A. 1. Martin Luther, a bad German priest, who left his convent, broke the solemn vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience, which he had made to God, married a nun, and became the founder of the Lutherans.
2. Henry VIII., a bad Catholic king of England, who murdered his wives, and founded the Episcopalian or Anglican Church.
3. John Calvin, a wicked French Catholic, who was the founder of the Calvinists.
4. John Knox, a bad Scottish priest, who was the founder of the Presbyterians or Puritans.
Q. What great crime did these wicked men commit?
A. They rebelled against the Church of Jesus Christ, and caused a great number of their Catholic countrymen to follow their bad example.
Q. What will be the punishment of those who wilfully rebel against the Holy Catholic Church?
A. Like Lucifer, and the other rebellious angels, they will be cast into the everlasting flames of hell.
Q. Who has assured us of this?
A. Jesus Christ Himself, the Son of God.
Q. What are His words?
A. "He who will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and the publican." MAtt. xviii. 17.
Q. What does Jesus Christ tell us in these words?
A. He tells us plainly that he who is out of His Church, and does not obey her, is before Him as the heathen and publican.
Q. What follows from this?
A. It follows that, as the heathen is damned, so, also, all those will be damned who die out of the Church of Jesus Christ.

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/familiar.htm

When EENS was preached like this to Protestants, there were innumerable conversions. If there were 10,000 missionary Priests in America or most nations today with the same spirit and missionary zeal as a Fr. Michael Mueller or a Fr. Arnold Damen had, that nation would be converted to the Church in a matter of decades. They made 10s of thousands of converts. One reason for unbelief in the plain sense of the doctrine - that all must be converted to the Faith and become Catholic Christians to be saved - is because it requires much prayer, work and effort on our part. If we convince ourselves non-Catholics are saved in their ignorance, we can just hope they remain blissfully ignorant. That is mistaken imho. The traditional approach has great fruits and we should return to it.

His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, who has said strict EENS of this kind is a legitimate position although the Holy Father himself does not believe it as such, also comes very close to discerning one major reason for the loss of missionary zeal among Catholics - "The missionaries of the 16th century were convinced that the unbaptized person is lost forever. After the [Second Vatican] Council, this conviction was definitely abandoned. The result was a two-sided, deep crisis. Without this attentiveness to the salvation, the Faith loses its foundation." https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pope-emeritus-benedict-says-church-is-now-facing-a-two-sided-deep-crisis Would you disagree with him, Jayne?

Fr. Michael Mueller says clearly that as the Lord tells us to treat heretics as heathen, the same applies to them.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: hollingsworth on September 16, 2018, 10:37:52 AM
Xavier:
Quote
I am asking whether Protestants who do not receive the Body and Blood of the Lord can be saved? we must consider that, at least, a moral impossibility, on par with someone being raised from the dead. Fr. Mueller says Protestants who die as Protestants will be lost; the only possibility, therefore, of their salvation is a hidden deathbed conversion unknown to us.

I certainly don't believe this.  I don't care what "Fr. Mueller" says, (whoever he may be).  How we, on this side of eternity, can make these glib assumptions is beyond me.  Anne Catherine Emmerich, the renowned German seer, testifies that she saw Protestant souls in Purgatory.
You say "a moral impossibility, on par with someone being raised from the dead?"  Really?  And just who the heck are you, Xavier, to say such a thing?  Sorry, no sale.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Jaynek on September 16, 2018, 10:38:14 AM
My point, Xavier, is that you are not framing the question properly.  It's like asking "Can circles be squares?"  Even if, for the sake of argument, we were to say that Protestants in a state of invincible ignorance could be saved, they would not be saved as Protestants. In such a hypothetical situation, they would be saved in spite of considering themselves Protestants. From God's perspective, they would be Catholic.

If you are trying to discuss whether there are any circuмstances under which a Protestant could be saved, you can't phrase it as you have, including the expression "as Protestant".  Protestantism is not a saving religion.  Nobody could possibly be saved as a Protestant.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Nishant Xavier on September 16, 2018, 10:57:13 AM
So, the Council of Florence got it wrong, then, Hollingsworth, "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jєωs and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

Do you not know what St. Theresa said about Luther and Calvin, how their false presumption deceived them and led them to hell?

Also, there was a mystic to whom Our Lady used to appear. And in those days when every Catholic used to believe heretics must become Catholics to be saved, when asked by Protestants, "Can we Protestants be saved?" She gave a non-committal answer, like most Catholics today would give, "I can't judge that". But Our Lady said, "My daughter, since you had too much human respect, I won't appear to you again". And She did not. Catholics, when asked, should say you must be Catholic to be saved. Pope St. Pius X authorized the Holy Office decree that taught, "Catholic, when interrogated, should answer that those who die as infidels are damned."

St. Alphonsus always preached heretics and infidels who died in final impenitence were lost. Oh !what an invaluable benefit is the gift of faith ! How many millions of souls, among infidels and heretics, are deprived of the Sacraments, of sermons, of good example,and of the other helps to salvation which we possess in the true Church."

Edit: Jayne, the person who voted Protestants for the first option probably disagrees with you. Protestants, as Protestants, can't be saved. What St. Alphonsus says of infidels, “Still we answer the Semipelagians, and say, that infidels who arrive at the use of reason, and are not converted to the Faith, cannot be excused ... if the infidel cooperates with this movement, observing the precepts of the law of nature, and abstaining from grievous sins, he will certainly receive, through the merits of Jesus Christ, the grace proximately sufficient to embrace the Faith, and save his soul.” applies in the same way to heretics. To be saved, Jesus requires of Protestants what the Church does - to renounce pagan and Protestant errors, and ask to receive the gift of Catholic Faith, and salvation.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Stubborn on September 16, 2018, 11:33:20 AM
Can Protestants be saved without becoming Catholic? we know some Protestants are baptized as infants. Justification is not the issue here. The issue is whether they can obtain the special grace the Doctors and the Church call final perseverance (the grace promised for e.g. by the Sacred Heart to all Catholic Christians to keep the Nine First Fridays, and by the Immaculate Heart Herself to all deeply devoted to Her by the Rosary, who keep the First Saturdays), a special form of which is the grace (since it is a grace, this means God alone gives it, and He can choose not to give it, unless Prots become Catholic first) never to commit mortal sin again (and this wondrous and most precious grace - which we should desire for ourselves and for our children with all our hearts, the Twin Hearts together promised to all who make a Great Double Novena of 9 First Fridays and 9 First Saturdays together, after Sacramental Confession and a good Preparation - please see http://lapieta.tripod.com/dnov_ena.html for more on that) which corresponds to a high state of merit, a high degree of grace. If a person attains this level of grace, especially in infancy or while still quite young, as Jesus so earnestly urges in the link, he can well hope to have a rich crown of merit in heaven.

[...]

So, can Protestants be saved, as Protestants? Can we agree at least that it is a moral impossibility to obtain final perseverance, without Holy Mass, without Holy Communion, without Eucharistic adoration - and especially when one has contempt and despises these things?
Remember, one of the sins that cannot be forgiven, is the sin of never having become a member of the Catholic Church. Those who die in this state, die outside of the Church, as such will always die with this mortal sin on their soul. You have the wrong idea of what Final Perseverance is.

Next, the idea of anyone outside the Church having their sins forgiven at all is heresy, because the dogma clearly states that: "We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins" - this is dogma and we are bound under pain of mortal sin to believe it as decreed by Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctum.

Finally, we cannot say that the only requirement for prots' salvation is to die without sin because we are bound to merit salvation via good works - this is something prots, who believe (false) faith alone is necessary and live their lives wholly rejecting as heresy that works are a requirement for salvation. If prots can be saved, then error is meritorious and, as V2 preaches, everyone can be saved.

So, no, Protestants cannot be saved without having become Catholic before death.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: forlorn on September 16, 2018, 03:22:04 PM
A baptised Protestant child under the age of 7 most likely would be saved. Through Baptism we are joined with the Church(and even Baptisms by heretics can be valid), it's only by the embracement of heresy that Protestants are separated from the Church. A child under 7 having not achieved the age of reason would be spared the sin of heresy AFAIK and therefore still count as a member of the Church. Although that would be in spite of the child being a Protestant.

Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 16, 2018, 06:55:52 PM
A baptized Protestant child under the age of 7 most likely would be saved. Through Baptism we are joined with the Church (and even Baptisms by heretics can be valid), it's only by the embracement of heresy that Protestants are separated from the Church. A child under 7 having not achieved the age of reason would be spared the sin of heresy AFAIK and therefore still count as a member of the Church. Although that would be in spite of the child being a Protestant.

Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.
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It is Catholic teaching that Baptism makes a person a member of the Catholic Church, and wipes out not only original sin but any actual sin along with any Purgatory associated with the actual sin. Therefore any baptized child, even among Protestants, before the age of reason who dies is saved and goes straight to heaven. When you get right down to brass tacks, no child becomes "Protestant" until the age of reason.
.
But how does a Protestant Baptism have the power to make this happen? The Sacrament of Baptism is not Protestant. It is Catholic, and when administered validly in a Protestant setting it is effective even though it is stolen from the Catholic Church. This is similar to a valid Eucharist consecrated by a priest who is in the state of mortal sin.
.
Whether a specific child under 7 years old (Protestant or not) has yet reached the age of reason or not, is a question that varies from child to child and ultimately God is the only qualified judge.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 16, 2018, 07:07:28 PM
Xavier:

  Anne Catherine Emmerich, the renowned German seer, testifies that she saw Protestant souls in Purgatory.

.
She was German so this must be translated, perhaps losing something in the translation.
She must have meant that she saw people in Purgatory whom she had KNOWN to be Protestants in life.
They would have had to convert to become Catholic before they died in order to be eligible for Purgatory.
Protestants don't believe in Purgatory, so how could they go there?
Would they have to remain in Purgatory until they abandon their infidelity and accept the reality that Purgatory is real?
Who says that is what Purgatory is for, or, if that can even happen in Purgatory?
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Struthio on September 16, 2018, 07:23:17 PM
There are no writings of Anna Katharina Emmerick. All there is are two dubious books written by the dubious poet and romanticist Clemens Brentano, who interviewed her at length.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 16, 2018, 07:35:31 PM
The answer to this is so obviously no that I cannot understand why you are asking the question.

If it were somehow possible for Protestants to be saved that would also mean that they were Catholic somehow .  They cannot be saved as Protestants .

Exactly.  "No, ..." is the only non-heretical answer.  If they are saved it's only because they've are Catholic.  If there's sufficient invincible ignorance, this means that they are truly Catholic and not Protestant.  Frankly, I'm shocked that anyone could answer anything other than the "No, ..." option.  This shows how deeply polluted so many people's thinking has become regarding the EENS issue.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 16, 2018, 07:36:49 PM
Hi, Jayne. No, I believe you are mistaken. I am asking whether Protestants who do not receive the Body and Blood of the Lord can be saved?

Then you need to reformulate your poll.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 16, 2018, 07:40:39 PM
Xavier:
I certainly don't believe this.  I don't care what "Fr. Mueller" says, (whoever he may be).  How we, on this side of eternity, can make these glib assumptions is beyond me.  Anne Catherine Emmerich, the renowned German seer, testifies that she saw Protestant souls in Purgatory.
You say "a moral impossibility, on par with someone being raised from the dead?"  Really?  And just who the heck are you, Xavier, to say such a thing?  Sorry, no sale.

Glib assumptions?  That's Catholic dogma.  So you'll take the alleged visions of one Anne Catherine Emmerich over the teaching of the Magisterium.  It's Catholic dogma that Protestants cannot be saved.  It's obvious that you don't care what Father Mueller says, nor do you care what the Church teaches.  You have your own opinion and you're sticking with it regardless ... the essence of heresy.

Given this outburst of yours, it's clear that you lack Catholic faith.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 16, 2018, 07:42:59 PM
A baptised Protestant child under the age of 7 most likely would be saved. Through Baptism we are joined with the Church(and even Baptisms by heretics can be valid), it's only by the embracement of heresy that Protestants are separated from the Church. A child under 7 having not achieved the age of reason would be spared the sin of heresy AFAIK and therefore still count as a member of the Church. Although that would be in spite of the child being a Protestant.

Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Yes, they are Catholics until they profess heresy, since they have received the Sacrament of Baptism.  As for the requirement to receive Holy Eucharist, that's considered necessary by necessity of precept but not absolutely necessary for salvation.  Adherence to heresy is one of the things that excludes from membership in the Church (cf. St. Robert Bellarmine's criteria).  Now, is it possible that an invincibly ignorance 10-year-old could not pertinaciously adhere to heresy and be saved?  Sure, I think so.  But then he's still a Catholic in material heresy.  Once the nature of this heresy, however, touches the point where the person no longer has the correct formal motive of faith, the heresy transitions into formal heresy ... even if there's no active sin against faith.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 16, 2018, 07:46:22 PM
There are no writings of Anna Katharina Emmerick. All there is are two dubious books written by the dubious poet and romanticist Clemens Brentano, who interviewed her at length.

Correct.  Yet hollingworth prefers these works to the teaching of the Magisterium and prefers the poetry of Brentano to the serious theology of Father Mueller.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Nishant Xavier on September 17, 2018, 04:04:12 AM
Pope Gregory XVI taught, "Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.

Quote from: forlorn
A baptised Protestant child under the age of 7 most likely would be saved.

Sure, forlorn, this isn't the issue here at all. Every baptized child is Catholic. He ceases to be Catholic only when he becomes personally responsible for the errors of his sect, or when he denies the fundamental mysteries of the Catholic Faith, the Trinity and the Incarnation.

Let's be practical here - we're not talking about the hypothetical 7 or 10 year child, or even a 18 year old man or woman. We are talking about our Protestant co-workers, friends, colleagues, relatives, persons we know and generally talk to. Should we, by prayer and sacrifice above all, and secondly by evangelism and effort, work for their conversion to the Catholic Faith, as the only means to deliver them from hell. If you say yes, you agree with me. If no, then we disagree. The statement of Pope Gregory XVI is very clear. If we told it to a Protestant, he would understand it. If we are going to say Protestants can be anonymous Catholics, we are only one step away from pagans-can-be-saved-as-anonymous-Christians Rahner's theory.

Quote
If there's sufficient invincible ignorance, this means that they are truly Catholic and not Protestant.

Ok, Ladislaus. What about a 70 or 80 year old Protestant neighbor of ours, who has lived among Catholics all his or her life, and been told many times that they have to be Catholic to be saved. Will you say they are invincibly ignorant? My answer is invincible ignorance is not the issue. If they are culpably ignorant, they are formal heretics. If they are invincibly ignorant, they are material heretics. But being a material heretic is not the same as obtaining final perseverance. One of the effects of the Holy Eucharist, Ladislaus, is to prevent us from falling into future mortal sins, and to deliver us from daily venial faults. Trent says this. Similarly, all the Sacraments have their proper effects. A 70 or 80 year old Protestant has received none of them after Baptism. A Catholic Christian, who is striving to obtain final perseverance, has received several.

"But it is not enough to resolve never more to lose God; it is moreover necessary to adopt the means by which you may be preserved from the danger of losing him. The first means is, to avoid the occasions of sin; of this we have already spoken. The second is, to frequent the sacraments of penance and the Eucharist. In the house which is often swept there is no uncleanness. By the sacrament of penance the soul is purified; by it it obtains not only the remission of sins, but also help to resist temptations. The Communion is called the bread of heaven; because as the body cannot live without earthly food, so the soul cannot live without this celestial bread. Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you (John, vi, 54).

But on the other hand, to those who frequently eat this bread, is promised eternal life. If any man eat of this bread he shall live forever (John, vi, 52). Hence the Council of Trent calls the Communion a medicine which delivers us from venial, and preserves us from mortal sins (Sess. 13, cap. 2). " http://www.traditionalcatholicpriest.com/2017/06/17/final-perseverance-preparation-death-considerations-xxxi/

Moreover, final perseverance is to be sought primarily by prayer, St. Alphonsus and the Doctors tell us. But one should not depend so much on one's own prayers, as one should on the prayers of the Mother of God and the Saints. And this too Protestants don't do. And nobody who considers this reasonably will not see how precarious is the state of our Protestant friends and how desperately the Church is necessary.

Unfortunately, Pope Benedict XVI, in his discussion of EENS, says we no longer question that non-Catholics can be saved, but the real question, he says, is "why is the Church still necessary"? Sadly, this is where it ends up.

I'm not interested in getting into an interminable theoretical dispute. Are we interested in Protestantism remaining for another 500 years or are we going to pray and work for its extirpation in the next 50? We have the prophesies of the Age of Mary to come, when the Mother of God will triumph over all heresies, and Protestantism will disappear. We must believe and hope in that promise, and pray and work to obtain it. Part of that is seriousness about EENS, and the necessity for all to be Catholic. If just 1000000 Catholics would seriously resolve, by prayer and sacrifice primarily, to offer all their good works, Masses, Holy Communions, in union with the Sacred and Immaculate Heart, to obtain just one convert every year, anywhere in the world, and teach all Catholics and future converts they meet to do the same, there will be 10 million converts in 10 years, and it will keep increasing rapidly. This is our duty as Catholic Christians. If ecuмenism had not confused many Catholics, Traditional Catholics included, we would all be doing just this daily.

What is the essence of false ecuмenism? It is believing adult Protestants, who have tons of opportunities to convert, can be saved without being converted. St. Kolbe called it one of the most dangerous heresies of our time. This great Saint taught us every Knight of the Immaculata must work to counter false ecuмenism and resist it by diametrically opposite action. St. Montfort says it is liberalism not to believe that devotion to Our Lady - because the grace of final perseverance is dispensed by Her hands, and primarily through Her prayers - is necessary for salvation. Needless to say, most adult Protestants have not invoked Our Lady's aid for salvation via the Hail Mary and similar prayers either. All these are part of what makes the conversion of our Protestant friends so urgent.

"§ 1. Necessary to all men to attain salvation.

40. The learned and pious Jesuit, Suarez, the erudite and devout Justus Lipsius, doctor of Louvain, and many others have proved invincibly, from the sentiments of the Fathers [among others, St. Augustine, St. Ephrem, deacon of Edessa, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Germanus of Constantinople, St. John Damascene, St. Anselm, St. Bernard, St. Bernardine, St. Thomas and St. Bonaventure], that devotion to our Blessed Lady is necessary to salvation, and . . . that it is an infallible mark of reprobation to have no esteem and love for the holy Virgin; while on the other hand, it is an infallible mark of predestination to be entirely and truly devoted to Her."

http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/mary15d.htm

A final point, which Pope Benedict inadvertently touches on, is Catholics do not know how precious these things are - devotion to the Eucharist, devotion to Mary, etc - because now they are taught we can as well be saved without them. So, they are not esteemed.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Stubborn on September 17, 2018, 06:04:51 AM
A baptised Protestant child under the age of 7 most likely would be saved. Through Baptism we are joined with the Church(and even Baptisms by heretics can be valid), it's only by the embracement of heresy that Protestants are separated from the Church. A child under 7 having not achieved the age of reason would be spared the sin of heresy AFAIK and therefore still count as a member of the Church. Although that would be in spite of the child being a Protestant.

Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.
You are not wrong.

"...But this world, as far as men go, need not be a failure! Everybody could know about the Catholic Faith! There is not a city in the United States where you could not find it. Little babies could not find it, I grant you, but little Protestant babies who die before they reach the age of reason are saved. Baptism made them Catholics. That is very sweet, is it not? There is only one Baptism. And every baptized baby is a subject of our Holy Father the Pope. (When you go to Heaven, most of the Americans you meet will be under seven years of age!) But you are not babies, and I am not talking to you as babies...." - Fr. Feeney, Bread of Life
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 17, 2018, 07:28:30 AM
Hi, Jayne. No, I believe you are mistaken. I am asking whether Protestants who do not receive the Body and Blood of the Lord can be saved? we must consider that, at least, a moral impossibility, on par with someone being raised from the dead.
.
Correction:
No, your poll is not asking anything about Holy Communion. What you're trying to do is change the meaning of what your poll asked in the first place after several posts have made you realize you were entirely wrong from the start, in thinking that Catholic dogma is subject to popular opinion -- or, scraping the bottom of the barrel, anyone can believe what he wants to believe like you're attempting to do with your own personal doctrine on salvation.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Nishant Xavier on September 17, 2018, 07:33:18 AM
Read this again, Neil.

"Q. Are there any other reasons to show that heretics, or Protestants who die out of the Roman Catholic Church, are not saved?
A. There are several. They cannot be saved because
1. They have no divine faith.
2. They make a liar of Jesus Christ, of the holy Ghost, and of the Apostles.
3. They have no faith in Christ.
4. They fell away from the true Church of Christ.
5. They are too proud to submit to the Pope, the Vicar of Christ.
6. They cannot perform any good works whereby they can attain heaven.
7. They do not receive the Body and Blood of Christ.
8. They die in their sins.
9. They ridicule and blaspheme the Mother of God and His Saints.
10. They slander the spouse of Jesus Christ—the Catholic Church."
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 17, 2018, 07:39:37 AM
Read this again, Neil.

"Q. Are there any other reasons to show that heretics, or Protestants who die out of the Roman Catholic Church, are not saved?
A. There are several. They cannot be saved because
1. They have no divine faith.
2. They make a liar of Jesus Christ, of the holy Ghost, and of the Apostles.
3. They have no faith in Christ.
4. They fell away from the true Church of Christ.
5. They are too proud to submit to the Pope, the Vicar of Christ.
6. They cannot perform any good works whereby they can attain heaven.
7. They do not receive the Body and Blood of Christ.
8. They die in their sins.
9. They ridicule and blaspheme the Mother of God and His Saints.
10. They slander the spouse of Jesus Christ—the Catholic Church."
.
Read this again XS -- your poll offers nothing regarding the Eucharist:

Can Protestants be saved, without becoming Catholic, at least in the hour of death?

Yes, they can be saved, as Protestants, provided invincible ignorance excuses them from heresy.

5 (22.7%)
I'm not sure if they can be saved. I assume they can be and so it's ok to leave them in ignorance.

0 (0%)
I'm not sure if they can be saved. I assume they can't be and thus I pray and work to convert them.

4 (18.2%)
No, Protestants cannot be saved without having become Catholic before death.

12 (54.5%)
Other (please explain).
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Nishant Xavier on September 17, 2018, 07:41:19 AM
Not interested in getting into a meaningless squabble. Try to understand Fr. Mueller's point. There are many reasons, not just one, why heretics who die as heretics, will not be saved.

Fr.M: "There are several. They cannot be saved because ... They do not receive the Body and Blood of Christ."
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 17, 2018, 07:47:25 AM
Not interested in getting into a meaningless squabble. Try to understand Fr. Mueller's point. There are many reasons, not just one, why heretics who die as heretics, will not be saved.

Fr.M: "There are several. They cannot be saved because ... They do not receive the Body and Blood of Christ."
.
It takes a special brand of idiot to compose a poll, wait for replies to the poll, then try to say the poll was asking something else.
.
You ought to learn something about conducting polls before you try to change the concept itself. 
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Nishant Xavier on September 17, 2018, 07:51:33 AM
Your reading comprehension must be less than nil. Someone more patient than me will have to help you.

This is the question Fr. Mueller was asking and answering. Q. Are there any other reasons to show that heretics, or Protestants who die out of the Roman Catholic Church, are not saved?

Go read the Catechism and the sources I've given again. You have given no source. And you're just interested in picking a fight. 

No thanks.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 17, 2018, 08:08:04 AM
Your reading comprehension must be less than nil. Someone more patient than me will have to help you.

This is the question Fr. Mueller was asking and answering. Q. Are there any other reasons to show that heretics, or Protestants who die out of the Roman Catholic Church, are not saved?

Go read the Catechism and the sources I've given again. You have given no source. And you're just interested in picking a fight.

No thanks.
.
Keep up the idiocy, and prove you're an idiot.
Where is Mueller in your poll?
Where is the Eucharist in your poll?
Where do you say you're conducting a different poll now?
You've got egg on your face and you're embarrassed.  
Face the facts.
Maybe you're used to getting away with your antics elsewhere.
News flash:
Not going to happen on CI.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 17, 2018, 08:16:28 AM
XavierSem, you're not going to last very long in any Traditional Catholic seminary that I know of.  You'll quickly be labeled a "Feeneyite heretic".  [This is not a criticism but an observation, since I personally identify with "Feeneyism" myself.]
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Jaynek on September 17, 2018, 08:19:44 AM
XavierSem, I think what you are trying to say is actually correct.   Unfortunately you have not expressed yourself clearly.  Several people have tried to tell you this.

From my perspective, one of the major problems facing the Church since Vatican II has been lack of clarity and precision in supposedly magisterial teaching.  Being concerned with clarity is not petty squabbling about words.  It is a desperate need of the Church right now.  You can't just put something out there and expect everyone to guess what you mean.

I really appreciate your zeal for the Faith and tend to appreciate your posts.  Zeal, however, needs to be tempered by humility.  I suggest you pray about and discuss with your spiritual director your ability to accept correction.  Also, some people on this forum are going to offer corrections harshly.  Do not be discouraged by this.  It offers you an excellent opportunity to grow in virtue.

(And if you don't have a spiritual director yet, I recommend you make finding one a high priority.)
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 17, 2018, 08:21:15 AM
If they are invincibly ignorant, they are material heretics.

Not necessarily.  Depending on the degree of ignorance, they may be formal heretics.  If they lack sufficient knowledge to be able to have the formal motive of faith, then they are still formal heretics ... even if the sin of (active) infidelity is not imputed to them due to their ignorance (cf. St. Thomas).  Formal heresy is not (necessarily) to be equated with the sin of infidelity.  It has to do with the formal motive of faith (vs. the material objects of faith), the WHY of belief vs. the WHAT.  Theoretically, someone could believe very single teaching of the Church and still be a formal heretic.  Also, one could be invincibly ignorant and not culpable and still be a formal heretic.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Jaynek on September 17, 2018, 08:32:48 AM
 Also, one could be invincibly ignorant and not culpable and still be a formal heretic.
I'm having trouble getting my head around this one.  Could you please give a hypothetical scenario in which this occurs.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Stubborn on September 17, 2018, 08:44:35 AM
Invincible ignorance should never be introduced into any EENS discussion because God alone knows those whom He chose to leave invincibly ignorant of Himself and the means of salvation, iow, no one. Facing that reality, being invincibly ignorant means that only when one is brain damaged and on that account is incapable of learning, period. Other than that, no one is invincibly ignorant of the true faith and means of salvation except by their own choice.    
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 17, 2018, 09:09:38 AM
I'm having trouble getting my head around this one.  Could you please give a hypothetical scenario in which this occurs.

I've never heard of the Catholic Church but have a copy of the Bible.  So I start reading it and begin formulating one incorrect proposition after another.  Because my own interpretation of the Bible is my rule of faith, I lack the formal rule of faith.  Read below from St. Thomas (quoted in the Catholic Encyclopedia):

Quote
The teaching of the Church's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm) Doctors on this point has ever been the same, and it will suffice if we quote two passages from St. Thomas (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14663b.htm), who, however, has no set treatise on a question which he took for granted. "The formal object of faith", he says, "is the First Truth as manifested in Holy Scripture (http://www.newadvent.org/bible) and in the Church's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm) teaching. Hence if anyone does not adhere as to an infallible (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm) and Divine rule to the Church's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm) teaching, which proceeds from the Church's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm) truth (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15073a.htm) manifested in Holy Scripture (http://www.newadvent.org/bible), such an one has not the habit of faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm), but holds the truths (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15073a.htm) of faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) not by faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) but by some other principle" (II-II, Q. v, a. 3)

So it's possible to hold the truths of faith (materially) but not "by faith" (formally).

So if you have the incorrect (non-infallible and non-Divine) rule of faith, you lack the habit (aka supernatural virtue) of faith.  You could be inculpably ignorant of the existence of this rule, but even if this rule is lacking inculpably, supernatural faith cannot exist without it.

In order words, the faith can be lacking, purely negatively, by its absence.

So the formal vs. material distinction has less to do with the degree of sinfulness than with the presence or absence of the formal motive of faith.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Nishant Xavier on September 17, 2018, 12:13:33 PM
Thank you, dear Jayne, for your advice. I'll try to do as you say. Fr. Hartrup, SSPX, is my confessor, and spiritual director. I told myself I wouldn't get dragged into bitter controversy on this and regret doing so. All I wish to say, about the Holy Eucharist, the Bread of Life, is that it is our great and priceless pledge of obtaining final perseverance. And thus we must strive with all the means in our power to receive it frequently and daily if possible, and labor with all our zeal to ensure all our loved ones are able to do so. For Catholic Christians, that involves exhorting each other on the great gift of the Catholic Faith which is required for us to receive Our Lord in Holy Communion. For separated Christians, our zeal must be to show them the necessity of receiving it, so that, by the grace of God, they may enter the Church, and experience the joy of receiving Our Lord in Holy Communion at least a few times in their life.

Thanks, Ladislaus, for the concern. I appreciate it. But I'm not too worried about it - I think there are only slight misunderstandings of some of the issues involved and most Traditional Catholics would agree about the best approach for the Church to take if some small difficulties were cleared up. But I will never cease to preach that the Holy Eucharist is the surest pledge of our salvation, a wondrous blessing from Infinite Love, the medicine of immortality, the remedy for all our spiritual defects. If ever I became a Priest and had the power to do so, I would have every Catholic child under my authority make the 9 First Fridays, the 5 First Saturdays, and the Double Great Novena to which the Lord Jesus promised the grace never to commit mortal sin again. Then, I would impress upon Catholic children that the most priceless treasure they have is the gift of their Catholic Faith, which they should strive to bring all their friends to.

I don't disagree much with you, Lad, and even if some Catholics disagree slightly with those who take a slightly stronger approach on EENS, let it be so for now. The important thing is we strive, by prayer and our efforts, to help our non-Catholic friends come to the Faith.

Fr. Mueller enlists many reasons in his Catechism of Christian Doctrine, and I think they are all worth reflecting on. Fr. Damen, friend and contemporary of Fr. Mueller, who by the grace of God, brought tens of thousands of Protestants into the Catholic Church, took a similar approach to what I think you have been mentioning - that Protestants who reject the Church's rule of faith in preference for private interpretation will not have divine faith. https://www.olrl.org/apologetics/one_church.shtml Full sermon here. An excerpt below.

Quote
I have said that out of the Church there can be no Divine Faith. What is Divine Faith? When we believe a thing upon the authority of God, and believe it without doubt, without hesitating. Now, all our separated brethren outside of the Catholic Church take the private interpretation of the Bible for their guide; but the private interpretation of the Bible can never give them Divine Faith ... On what does he believe? On what authority? On his own opinion and judgment. And what is that? A human opinion, human testimony, and, therefore, a human faith. He cannot say positively, "I am sure, positively sure, as sure as there is a God in heaven, that this is the meaning of the text." Therefore, he has no other authority but his own opinion and judgment, and what his preacher tells him. But the preacher is a smart man. There are many smart Unitarian preachers, also, but that proves nothing; it is only human authority, and nothing else, and, therefore, only human faith. What is human faith? Believing a thing on the testimony of man. Divine Faith is believing on the testimony of God.

II.
The Catholic has Divine Faith, and why? Because the Catholic says: "I believe in such and such a thing." Why? "Because the Church teaches me so." And why do you believe the Church? "Because God has commanded me to believe the teaching of the Church; and God has threatened me with damnation if I do not believe the Church, and we are taught by St. Peter, in his epistle, that there is no private prophecy or interpretation of the Scriptures, for the unlearned and unstable wrest the very Scriptures, the Bible, to their own damnation."

That is strong language, my dear people, but that is the language of St. Peter, the head of the Apostles....And, therefore, my dearly beloved separated brethren, think over it seriously. You have a soul to be saved, and that soul must be saved or damned; either one or the other, it will dwell with God in heaven or with the devil in hell; therefore, seriously meditate upon it.

When I gave my Mission in Brooklyn several Protestants became Catholics. Among them there was a very highly educated and intelligent Virginian. He was a Presbyterian. After he had listened to my lecture he went to see his minister, and he asked him to be kind enough to explain a text of the Bible. The minister gave him the meaning. "Well, now," said the gentleman, "are you positive and sure that is the meaning of the text, for several other Protestants explain it differently?" "Why, my dear young man," says the preacher, "we never can be certain of our faith." "Well, then," says the young man, "good-bye to you: If I cannot be sure of my faith in the Protestant church, I will go where I can." And he became a Catholic ... I have said this evening hard things, but if St. Paul were here tonight, in this pulpit, he would have said harder things still. I have said them, however, not through a spirit of unkindness, but through a spirit of love, and a spirit of charity, in the hope of opening your eyes that your souls my be saved. It is love for your salvation, my dearly beloved Protestant brethren, for which I would gladly give my heart's blood; my love for your salvation that has made me preach to you as I have done.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 17, 2018, 12:35:18 PM
Thanks, Ladislaus, for the concern. I appreciate it. But I'm not too worried about it - I think there are only slight misunderstandings of some of the issues involved and most Traditional Catholics would agree about the best approach for the Church to take if some small difficulties were cleared up.

Well, unfortunately, we're not just talking about "slight misunderstandings".  There's a theology prevalent among Traditional Catholics that even infidels can be saved without first converting ... based on their "sincerity" and "good will".  So there's a resurgence of Pelagianism, and this ecclesiology is in fact at the root of the Vatican II errors.  You'll be surprised at how much animosity you'll find against the position that Protestants as Protestants cannot be saved.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Nishant Xavier on September 17, 2018, 12:54:59 PM
Quote
You'll be surprised at how much animosity you'll find against the position that Protestants as Protestants cannot be saved.

No worries. Our goal should only be to increase in merit and advance in holiness each and every day and hour of our lives. If all the world is against us, because we preach the love of God and His Church, the necessity of the Catholic Faith and the Sacraments, of Penance and of good works, of devotion to Our Lady and seeking Her intercession and mediation, what is that to us? If God be for us, who can be against us? I believe all Traditional Catholics working for restoration will soon see themselves as being on the same side. I certainly don't see anyone, even those who disagreed with me on this thread, as being an "enemy" to be "defeated", but rather a brother or sister or friend to exhort or receive advice from. But thanks for the warning, if it turns out as you say, I'll be forewarned.

My opinion is focusing on final perseverance is safer and surer, or at least more likely to be accepted by our fellow Traditional Catholics, than some of the other arguments and demonstrations made use of by Fr. Damen and Fr. Mueller. Fr. Mueller is quite clear at the same time that we cannot pass final judgment on any other soul, but we can and must pray and work for their conversion and salvation. If a soul receives the grace of a deathbed conversion, he or she would receive justification and perseverance together.

Quote
Q. Are all those who are out of the Church equally guilty and damnable before God?
A. No; some are more guilty than others.
Q. Who are least guilty and damnable?
A. Those who, without any fault of theirs, do not know Jesus Christ or His doctrine at all.
Q. Who are most guilty and damnable?
A. Those who know the Catholic Church to be the only true Church, but do not embrace her faith, as also those who could know her if they would candidly search, but who, through indifference and other culpable motives, neglect to do so.
Q. What are we to think of the salvation of those who are out of the pale of the Church without any fault of theirs, and who never had any opportunity of knowing better?
A. Their inculpable ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in His infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the Catholic faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance.
Q. Is it then right for us to say that one who was not received into the Church before his death, is damned?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. Because we cannot know for certain what takes place between God and the soul at the awful moment of death.
Q. What do you mean by this?
A. I mean that God, in His infinite mercy, may enlighten, at the hour of death, one who is not yet a Catholic, so that he may see the truth of the Catholic faith, be truly sorry for his sins, and sincerely desire to die a good Catholic.
Q. What do we say of those who receive such an extraordinary grace, and die in this manner?
A. We say of them that they die united, at least, to the soul of the Catholic Church, and are saved.
Q. What, then, awaits all those who are out of the Catholic Church, and die without having received such an extraordinary grace at the hour of death?
A. Eternal damnation.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Stubborn on September 17, 2018, 01:23:29 PM
Fr. Mueller is quite clear at the same time that we cannot pass final judgment on any other soul, but we can and must pray and work for their conversion and salvation. If a soul receives the grace of a deathbed conversion, he or she would receive justification and perseverance together.
No, we cannot pass final judgement, but we must believe and can repeat what the Church herself infallibly teaches about one who dies outside the Church. In that situation, unless one is baptized (in the case of an infidel), or instructed in the Catholic faith and accepts the faith prior to death, there is no hope of the grace of a deathbed conversion so called. The person cannot save himself nor can he be saved without first accepting the truths of the Catholic faith.   

Note Fr. Muller's answer:
Quote
Q. What are we to think of the salvation of those who are out of the pale of the Church without any fault of theirs, and who never had any opportunity of knowing better?

A. Their inculpable ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in His infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the Catholic faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance.
Here is a good example of what Fr. Mueller is talking about:

John Wayne dies a day after being baptized (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=8Z8oAAAAIBAJ&sjid=pykEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6646,1890264&dq=john+wayne+baptized&hl=en)
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: christy on September 17, 2018, 02:53:24 PM
Seriously? 
Of course Protestants can be saved.

If someone is a Protestant yet totally believes that they are in the right religion, and have not been properly exposed to Catholicism, they can be saved.

The error and sin only begins once they have a doubt, that they did not research, or they know they are not in the right religion.

It is absurd to believe that so many thousand of good-willed people go to hell.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: forlorn on September 17, 2018, 03:16:13 PM
Seriously?
Of course Protestants can be saved.

If someone is a Protestant yet totally believes that they are in the right religion, and have not been properly exposed to Catholicism, they can be saved.

The error and sin only begins once they have a doubt, that they did not research, or they know they are not in the right religion.

It is absurd to believe that so many thousand of good-willed people go to hell.
Outside of the Church There is Absolutely No Salvation 
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 17, 2018, 03:30:42 PM
Seriously?
Of course Protestants can be saved.

If someone is a Protestant yet totally believes that they are in the right religion, and have not been properly exposed to Catholicism, they can be saved.

The error and sin only begins once they have a doubt, that they did not research, or they know they are not in the right religion.

It is absurd to believe that so many thousand of good-willed people go to hell.

So, "sincerity saves" = Pelagianism.  I'm sorry, but see my last few posts.  Sincerity has nothing to do with whether one has supernatural Catholic faith.  That simply pertains to whether they have committed an actual sin of infidelity.  Supernatural faith can simply be lacking, negatively.  To say otherwise is pure Pelagian heresy.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Stubborn on September 17, 2018, 04:08:13 PM
christy must have been a troll, I clicked on her name and it says this:


The user whose profile you are trying to view does not exist.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: forlorn on September 17, 2018, 04:44:40 PM
christy must have been a troll, I clicked on her name and it says this:


The user whose profile you are trying to view does not exist.
No she just changed her username. 
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 17, 2018, 07:47:02 PM
No she just changed her username.
.
So then where are her other 5 posts?
.
ETA: Just found this one: 
https://www.cathinfo.com/teen-catholic-hangout/funny-stuff/msg626873/#msg626873
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Last Tradhican on September 18, 2018, 03:09:27 AM
Seriously?
Of course Protestants can be saved.

If someone is a Protestant yet totally believes that they are in the right religion, and have not been properly exposed to Catholicism, they can be saved.

The error and sin only begins once they have a doubt, that they did not research, or they know they are not in the right religion.

It is absurd to believe that so many thousand of good-willed people go to hell.
Who is more "good willed" and do not "know they are not in the right religion" than an unbaptized baby or a totally mentally handicapped? Yet they are not saved if the are not baptized. 
(of course, it is extremely likely that the person who wrote the quote above also believes that unbaptized infants go to heaven)
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Last Tradhican on September 18, 2018, 03:18:04 AM
Quote
Do You Believe Protestants as Protestants Can be Saved?
Today, the majority of people who call themselves Protestants in the USA, are not baptized. Keep that in mind.

Saying a Protestant can be saved is like saying a sunken ship floats. A sunken ship is a sunken ship.

If someone comes along and rectifies the reality, and makes the ship float, then the ship is not a sunk ship anymore, it is a floating ship. One can't then say that it is a sunk ship that floats. 


Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Last Tradhican on September 18, 2018, 03:29:26 AM
Seriously?
Of course Protestants can be saved.

If someone is a Protestant  yet totally believes that they are in the right religion, and have not been properly exposed to Catholicism, they can be saved.

The error and sin only begins once they have a doubt, that they did not research, or they know they are not in the right religion.

It is absurd to believe that so many thousand of good-willed people go to hell.
If the writer believes what he wrote then he has to also believe that:

"Seriously?
Of course Protestants, Muslim, Buddhists, Hindus and people in all religions can be saved.
If someone is a Protestant, Muslim, Buddhists, Hindus and people in all religions yet totally believes that they are in the right religion, and have not been properly exposed to Catholicism, they can be saved.
The error and sin only begins once they have a doubt, that they did not research, or they know they are not in the right religion.
It is absurd to believe that so many thousand of good-willed people go to hell."
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: ihsv on September 18, 2018, 06:55:29 PM
Seriously?
Of course Protestants can be saved.

If someone is a Protestant yet totally believes that they are in the right religion, and have not been properly exposed to Catholicism, they can be saved.

The error and sin only begins once they have a doubt, that they did not research, or they know they are not in the right religion.

It is absurd to believe that so many thousand of good-willed people go to hell.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EEv5DkrVeE
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Cantarella on September 18, 2018, 11:34:35 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EEv5DkrVeE

This is very good, thank you!

Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Cantarella on September 18, 2018, 11:36:17 PM
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/41199946_2150147145239099_8315078391820713984_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=6f7024ca84210608bb5617939c702bad&oe=5C269A4E)
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: poche on September 19, 2018, 04:46:30 AM
From a soul in Purgatory;

 Are many Protestants saved?
By the mercy of God a certain number of Protestants are saved, but their Purgatory is for many long and rigorous. It is true they have not abused grace like many Catholics, but neither have they had the marvelous graces of the sacraments and the other helps of the true religion, thus their expiation in Purgatory is prolonged.

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6253 (http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6253)
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Stubborn on September 19, 2018, 05:37:52 AM
From a soul in Purgatory;

 Are many Protestants saved?
By the mercy of God a certain number of Protestants are saved, but their Purgatory is for many long and rigorous. It is true they have not abused grace like many Catholics, but neither have they had the marvelous graces of the sacraments and the other helps of the true religion, thus their expiation in Purgatory is prolonged.

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6253 (http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6253)
Don't you believe this ^^^^ lying crap poche.

This is the truth:
"The Doctrine of Exclusive Salvation is described as fundamental or "foundational" to Catholic theology. It is called the "Dogma of Faith," because, of a truth, unless a person accepts it in all its momentous absoluteness, he really does not accept the Catholic Faith, howsoever he protests that he does. Conversely, he who dilutes this doctrine to any degree, so radically distorts the Faith that he renders it null and void, and his own faith in the bargain. For he who denies this doctrine makes Catholicity hardly more than a nicety, as if membership in the Church were like the first-class compartment on a commercial airliner, in which the majority of others will arrive at the same destination, really none the worse for their second-class transport." - Fr. Wathen, Who Shall Ascend?
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 19, 2018, 08:33:11 AM
christy must have been a troll, I clicked on her name and it says this:


The user whose profile you are trying to view does not exist.
.
In the past 2 days, this same "christy" (the user who ostensibly does not exist) has made 3 more posts:
.
https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/hurricane-florence-please-pray-for-us!/msg626991/#msg626991
.
https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/let-us-empty-purgatory!/msg626990/#msg626990
.
https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/introduce-yourself!/msg626864/#msg626864
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 19, 2018, 08:49:27 AM
From a soul in Purgatory;

 Are many Protestants saved?
By the mercy of God a certain number of Protestants are saved, but their Purgatory is for many long and rigorous. It is true they have not abused grace like many Catholics, but neither have they had the marvelous graces of the sacraments and the other helps of the true religion, thus their expiation in Purgatory is prolonged.

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6253 (http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6253)
.
You would have to be scraping the bottom of the barrel to find trash like this.
The source even explains this is from a merely historical docuмent that is a private writing having no bearing on Church teaching.
The author is "unknown."
.
An Unpublished Manuscript on Purgatory
   
by Unknown (https://www.catholicculture.org/search/resultslist.cfm?requesttype=docbrowseauth&resourcetype=1&catlabel=author&catid=1147)
DESCRIPTION

This pamphlet, describing alleged conversations between a nun and a soul in Purgatory, brings to light many aspects of the mysterious purification souls undergo before entering Heaven.


PUBLISHER & DATE  
The Reparation Society of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, Inc., December 26, 1967

Note: In conformity with the decrees of Pope Urban VIII, the author formally declares that the preternatural or seemingly supernatural facts recorded in this historical narrative rest on purely human authority, and consequently he does not in any way intend to pronounce a final judgment, or to anticipate any future decision of lawful Church authority as to their nature.

Introduction

At the expressed desire of the Directors of the Bulletin "Notre Dame de la Bonne Mort," this pamphlet is published with all the reservations ordered by the Church in the decree of Urban VIII, and as a purely historical docuмent.

It was sent to that periodical by a zealous and devout missionary and is a pious docuмent based on alleged conversations between a nun and a soul in Purgatory.
...
 Finally they were impressed by the living Sister's great progress in the work of her sanctification. So remarkable was this that on reading the manuscript Canon Dubosq said, "In publishing this Manuscript, as I heartily approve, you are anticipating a cause of beatification."...
.
[So, they were anticipating beatification, eh? Well that didn't happen! Maybe Bishop-of-Rome Francis can get that remedied!]
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Stubborn on September 19, 2018, 08:53:50 AM
.
In the past 2 days, this same "christy" (the user who ostensibly does not exist) has made 3 more posts:
.
https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/hurricane-florence-please-pray-for-us!/msg626991/#msg626991
.
https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/let-us-empty-purgatory!/msg626990/#msg626990
.
https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/introduce-yourself!/msg626864/#msg626864
I don't understand how that works. The poster who doesn't exist still posts. ;)
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: hollingsworth on September 19, 2018, 09:00:59 AM
NO:
Quote
You would have to be scraping the bottom of the barrel to find trash like this.
The source even explains this is from a merely historical docuмent that is a private writing having no bearing on Church teaching.
The author is "unknown."
I am more inclined to believe the testimony of an anonymous soul in Purgatory than the prolix rantings of certain members of CI
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Last Tradhican on September 19, 2018, 09:23:19 AM
NO: I am more inclined to believe the testimony of an anonymous soul in Purgatory than the prolix rantings of certain members of CI
There's tons of dogma that have been posted here. What you are doing is called grasping for straws.


"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears" (2Tim 4:3) 
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 19, 2018, 10:10:36 AM
NO: I am more inclined to believe the testimony of an anonymous soul in Purgatory ...

:laugh1:

You're "more inclined" to believe what you WANT to believe.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 19, 2018, 10:11:43 AM
NO: I am more inclined to believe the testimony of an anonymous soul in Purgatory than the prolix rantings of certain members of CI Church teaching.

fixed it for you.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 19, 2018, 12:55:42 PM
christy must have been a troll, I clicked on her name and it says this:


The user whose profile you are trying to view does not exist.
.
Another one:
https://www.cathinfo.com/teen-catholic-hangout/funny-stuff/msg627206/#msg627206
.
I don't understand how that works. The poster who doesn't exist still posts. ;)
.
Me neither. 
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 19, 2018, 01:09:06 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EEv5DkrVeE
.
It's really interesting to hear this sermon of St. John Eudes read at Mass like this.
.
There is a Newchurch parish nearby (in Northridge or Canoga Park, not sure) named St. John Eudes, but they would not have a word of what their own patron saint has to say about their treasured "ecuмenism."
.
I would like to know what St. Eudes had to say about Catholics serving a seder meal during Lent. 
They do this at the parish.
.
Or what he would have to say about them removing the Altar Stone from the main altar.
I noticed it was missing, so I asked around and nobody could tell me where it went.
Finally I got the answer from the PASTOR himself, who was very proud to have the answer to my question! 
He said they had cemented it into the floor of the lobby (used to be called "vestibule" but now it's like a hotel lobby).
It's in the capstone that covers a time capsule, so everyone can step on it who walks from the parking lot into the Church! 
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 19, 2018, 01:16:10 PM
.
You would have to be scraping the bottom of the barrel to find trash like this.
The source even explains this is from a merely historical docuмent that is a private writing having no bearing on Church teaching.
The author is "unknown."
.
An Unpublished Manuscript on Purgatory
    
by Unknown (https://www.catholicculture.org/search/resultslist.cfm?requesttype=docbrowseauth&resourcetype=1&catlabel=author&catid=1147)
DESCRIPTION

This pamphlet, describing alleged conversations between a nun and a soul in Purgatory, brings to light many aspects of the mysterious purification souls undergo before entering Heaven.


PUBLISHER & DATE  
The Reparation Society of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, Inc., December 26, 1967

Note: In conformity with the decrees of Pope Urban VIII, the author formally declares that the preternatural or seemingly supernatural facts recorded in this historical narrative rest on purely human authority, and consequently he does not in any way intend to pronounce a final judgment, or to anticipate any future decision of lawful Church authority as to their nature.

Introduction

At the expressed desire of the Directors of the Bulletin "Notre Dame de la Bonne Mort," this pamphlet is published with all the reservations ordered by the Church in the decree of Urban VIII, and as a purely historical docuмent.

It was sent to that periodical by a zealous and devout missionary and is a pious docuмent based on alleged conversations between a nun and a soul in Purgatory.
...
Finally they were impressed by the living Sister's great progress in the work of her sanctification. So remarkable was this that on reading the manuscript Canon Dubosq said, "In publishing this Manuscript, as I heartily approve, you are anticipating a cause of beatification."...
.
[So, they were anticipating beatification, eh? Well that didn't happen! Maybe Bishop-of-Rome Francis can get that remedied!]
.
The original booklet was written in the late 19th century, so their reference to Urban VIII is perfunctory. 
Notice, at the time it emerged the Index was still in use, plus, there is no Nihil Obstat or Imprimatur on the thing, so there is no way it could have been published at that time. 
.
However, fast forward a few decades to 1967, and without the Index and the abandonment of the necessity of approvals, it got to see the light of day, even though it's still said "unpublished." 

Thanks to the Internet, guess what --- it doesn't need so-called publication to become publicized. 
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 19, 2018, 01:27:48 PM
Yeah, terrific sermon.  Is that Father Bitzer?

St. John Eudes quoted as teaching that no one can be saved who is not a MEMBER of the Church.  Membership by that time had been universally defined as requiring the Sacrament of Baptism in re.  So much for Msgr. Fenton's theory that people can be within the Church (and saved) without being members of the Church (the "undigested hamburger soteriology" as I call it) ... championed famously here on CI by LoT.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: ihsv on September 19, 2018, 02:21:11 PM
Yeah, terrific sermon.  Is that Father Bitzer?

Yes, it is.

His sermons are available on YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/c/OurLadyofthePillarChapel (https://www.youtube.com/c/OurLadyofthePillarChapel)
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 19, 2018, 03:18:33 PM
Yes, it is.

His sermons are available on YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/c/OurLadyofthePillarChapel (https://www.youtube.com/c/OurLadyofthePillarChapel)

He has a fantastic delivery due to the tenor of his voice (could be on the radio), and his content is spot on.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 19, 2018, 03:20:00 PM
.
Another one:
https://www.cathinfo.com/teen-catholic-hangout/funny-stuff/msg627206/#msg627206
..
Me neither.

Her screen name was changed, so that probably messes up some things.  She originally typoed it "chritsy" when she meant "christy".
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: hollingsworth on September 19, 2018, 04:02:37 PM

Quote
Lefebvre: Does that mean that no Protestant, no Muslim, no Buddhist or animist will be saved? No, it would be a second error to think that. Those who cry for intolerance in interpreting St. Cyprian’s formula, “Outside the Church there is no salvation,” also reject the Creed, “I confess one baptism for the remission of sins,” and are insufficiently instructed as to what baptism is. There are three ways of receiving it: the baptism of water; the baptism of blood (that of the martyrs who confessed the faith while still catechumens) and baptism of desire. 


I would like folks like Ladislaus and NO to go on the record. Maybe you both have in the past, but I have no time to go through the accuмulated reams of babble on CI from the two of you true Catholic gents. The words above are reprinted, (perhaps for the third time), from the writings of ABL. Are you willing to testify for the record that the Archbishop was wrong, and, by extension, that Bp Williamson is wrong, including the three bishops whom the former has appointed? If so, please say so in clear words which all of us can understand. Please do not belabor us with unnecessary verbiage. I want succinct statements from you both that I can file away and have always at hand
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 19, 2018, 06:02:45 PM
The above +ABL explanation is a contradiction.  As it is written, it’s not catholic.  
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: hollingsworth on September 19, 2018, 06:57:55 PM

Quote
PV:The above +ABL explanation is a contradiction.  As it is written, it’s not catholic. 

So one CI member declares that what ABL has written is "not Catholic."  In fact, says he, it is "a contradiction."  Very well.  Are there others? Somewhat ironical, I'd say.  CI is a site, many of whose members have a deep respect for ABL, and a devotion to his one time senior bishop, Richard Williamson, whom most of them now recognize as the head of the Resistance. 
Ladislaus and NO probably agree with you, though they withhold comment for the moment.  Let's see if we can lure them into the discussion.  Here is the rest of the quote from A Letter to Confused Christians.  I'd like to think that Abp. Lefebvre, whose name is etched on an interior wall at St. Peter's, might carry a bit more weight in this argument than the posts of anonymous individuals with usernames, who merely post on the internet.


Quote
Baptism of desire can be explicit. Many times in Africa I heard one of our catechumens say to me, “Father, baptize me straightaway because if I die before you come again, I shall go to hell.” I told him “No, if you have no mortal sin on your conscience and if you desire baptism, then you already have the grace in you.” 
 
 The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire.  This consists in doing the will of God.
 God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church. 
 
 The error consists in thinking that they are saved by their religion.  They are saved in their religion but not by it.
 There is no Buddhist church in heaven, no Protestant church. This is perhaps hard to accept, but it is the truth. I did not found the Church, but rather Our Lord the Son of God.  As priests we must state theTruth. 

Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Matto on September 19, 2018, 07:38:00 PM
I think this is an interesting discussion. There are certainly differing opinions on this issue. I do not see any meaningful difference between Archbishop Lefebvre's position and that of the modernists on EENS. No meaningful difference whatsoever. And trads try to hurl the denial of EENS as one of the problems with Vatican II when their belief on EENS is almost exactly the same. Not exactly the same as the trads might think a hundred million people in the world today who do not believe in Jesus will be saved by BOD and the modernists think that four billion will be saved by BOD who do not believe in Jesus but the principle is the same. And the other difference is that the modernists are honest about it and openly reject EENS while the trads believe as the modernists do but pretend to cling to the dogma and give it lip-service. Perhaps I am guilty of this as well because I believe in some kind of limited BOD. So, Lefebvre here seems to be saying that many people who are not baptized but want to be baptized do not need baptism as they already have the grace within them and he tells them to rely on this an not worry? Okay. And he even gives this grace out to people who do not even believe even those who reject the Church like the Muslims. Okay. I disagree but everyone believes this today. But this belief goes back centuries and is not really new. I am no expert on Saint Thomas Aquinas but at one point I have seen quotes where he suggests that to receive Baptism of Desire one must believe in the central truths of the Catholic faith, but in another point he brings forth the idea that for all unbaptized children when they reach the age of reason their first rational act is to turn towards God and if they do they are justified (basically baptism of desire) or to turn away from God and commit a mortal sin. I always found this idea to be strange. This seems to be a contradiction to me. I wonder if Saint Thomas ever noticed this seeming contradiction and thought about it. It actually shocked me when I first read it because he was proposing BOD on such a large scale that it might even be more common and save more people than actual baptism. Then if every person who has reached the age of reason is offered BOD in their first rational moment, then why would God not give that same opportunity for those who die before the age of reason? Why not make it available to all? And at this point, when we go this far, I don't see how we can continue to claim that the sacraments are necessary for salvation and that EENS is true when more people are saved without the sacraments than with them and more people are saved outside the Church than within her, although we like to play games with words which completely deny their meaning while pretending to believe in them. "Yes, EENS is true but the Church is an invisible body that encompasses all men of good will (whatever that means) whether or not they believe in Jesus even if they deny Jesus and reject the Church outright (which is what is believed because they give BOD to Jєωs and Muslims) and not just the ignorant savages." But this is a strange argument. If you know me I tend to believe in BOD but think you have to believe in the Catholic faith to receive it and that it is not common so it should not be assumed or relied on.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 19, 2018, 08:34:31 PM
So one CI member declares that what ABL has written is "not Catholic."  In fact, says he, it is "a contradiction."  Very well.  Are there others? 

Yes, it's a grave error, an almost word-for-word contradiction of the Church's dogmatic definitions of EENS.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 19, 2018, 08:35:47 PM
Ladislaus and NO probably agree with you, though they withhold comment for the moment.

Uhm, yeah, because I was out for the evening.  I've said this many times.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Struthio on September 19, 2018, 08:42:05 PM
So one CI member declares that what ABL has written is "not Catholic."  In fact, says he, it is "a contradiction."  Very well.  Are there others? Somewhat ironical, I'd say.  CI is a site, many of whose members have a deep respect for ABL, and a devotion to his one time senior bishop, Richard Williamson, whom most of them now recognize as the head of the Resistance.  
Ladislaus and NO probably agree with you, though they withhold comment for the moment.  Let's see if we can lure them into the discussion.  Here is the rest of the quote from A Letter to Confused Christians.  I'd like to think that Abp. Lefebvre, whose name is etched on an interior wall at St. Peter's, might carry a bit more weight in this argument than the posts of anonymous individuals with usernames, who merely post on the internet.

Look hollingsworth, Catholics believe in dogma and not in fallible men. And you cry like a heathen "oh vey, they touched my idols". Grow up!
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: hollingsworth on September 19, 2018, 09:18:02 PM
Quote
Lad: Yes, it's, (i.e. Lefebvre's position on EENS) a grave error, an almost word-for-word contradiction of the Church's dogmatic definitions of EENS.


Quote
struth: Look hollingsworth, Catholics believe in dogma and not in fallible men. And you cry like a heathen "oh vey, they touched my idols". Grow up!

OK, we've got two of you on record.  Where's NO?  Laddy says that ABL was in "grave error."  And struth believes in dogma, not fallible men like ABL.  What a champion of the faith he is!
How about you, Matthew?  Do you take a similar position?  Are you in the camp of these two theological CI giants? Do you reject "fallible men" like the Archbishop, while declaring unyielding, unwavering allegiance to true "dogma?"  This is your blog.  You reprint everything that +Williamson writes, who, along with the other bishops I am certain, holds the erroneous views of ABL.  Where do you stand, sir? After all, you say this is a Resistance site, and +W is the putative leader of that Resistance.  How about it?
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Struthio on September 19, 2018, 09:26:51 PM
@hollingsworth

My thumb up for asking pertinent questions. Whether one believes in dogma or in fallible men.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Struthio on September 19, 2018, 09:36:07 PM
@hollingsworth


Did you notice that we're in "The Feeneyism Ghetto" here? Like in the deepest part of hell, where noone can hear you?
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: poche on September 19, 2018, 10:40:36 PM
Don't you believe this ^^^^ lying crap poche.

This is the truth:
"The Doctrine of Exclusive Salvation is described as fundamental or "foundational" to Catholic theology. It is called the "Dogma of Faith," because, of a truth, unless a person accepts it in all its momentous absoluteness, he really does not accept the Catholic Faith, howsoever he protests that he does. Conversely, he who dilutes this doctrine to any degree, so radically distorts the Faith that he renders it null and void, and his own faith in the bargain. For he who denies this doctrine makes Catholicity hardly more than a nicety, as if membership in the Church were like the first-class compartment on a commercial airliner, in which the majority of others will arrive at the same destination, really none the worse for their second-class transport." - Fr. Wathen, Who Shall Ascend?
In another place the soul describes the entry into Heaven of a woman who was not Catholic but who died making an act of perfect contrition, which was accepted by God.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Nishant Xavier on September 19, 2018, 11:43:48 PM
Hi Christy. I won't cite a theological text to you, but maybe you could read this remnant article, written by a now Traditional Catholic woman who was a little girl around the time of Vatican II. It shows how most Catholics, even little children, used to think and speak not that long ago. And the fruits were so good! +ABL says, in a 1966 letter, "conversions of pagans and Protestants were numerous".
Quote
"My friends knew all sorts of things about Heaven. It was amazing. It was like they shared some secret knowledge. There was no doubt in their minds that Heaven was a place, and they talked about it as if they had been there. I clamored to know more.
They looked at each other, shook their heads, then looked sadly at me.
“But you can’t go to Heaven,” they said.
“Why not?”
“’Cause you’re not Catholic.”
“What do I have to do to be Catholic?”
“You have to go to Catechism.”
Those words struck my heart like an arrow. Even though I was not able to actually “go to Catechism” until I was a sophomore in college, I made up my mind right then. I would be Catholic. A real one, not just one saying the Nicene Creed in the whitewashed Episcopal Church, wondering how I could believe in the One Holy Catholic Church and not be in it.
Those nine-year-old girls possessed the Truth, and they didn’t hesitate to let me know it. They told me what was necessary for salvation because I was their friend. They didn’t dilute the doctrine. I didn’t need to know about the exceptions. I just needed to be Catholic.
Please spare me the nuances. They exist, I understand that. There can be people in Heaven that we didn’t think would be there. That’s good. I have no idea how the Lord goes about rescuing people at the last minute who didn’t enter the Church during their life. I don’t pretend to know how grace burns the unbelief from their minds before their souls depart this world, but I don’t have to know those extraordinary things. That’s God’s business.
All I know is that every human being on this earth needs to be rescued from Hell. Our Lord died to secure a place for us in Heaven. He founded a Church, the One True Church which is necessary for the salvation of souls.
If that’s not true, then everything we’re doing is a waste of time. Why should we fight so hard? Why should we hold so closely to Tradition? Why should we struggle to stand against the flood of immorality and despair that engulfs the world? What does it matter? What’s the point? If there is salvation outside the Catholic Church, then we don’t have to do anything. Just jump right back in the Sea of Unknowing.
For myself, I’d rather be like my old friends, those valiant girls who first told me what I had to do to save my soul."
https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/3931-where-have-all-the-catholics-gone

Hi Stubborn. Yes, we have to be Catholic to be saved. We never pass final judgment, but we pray that God gives all souls the grace to become Catholic and repent of their sins and heresies before the end of their lives. And we work to deliver them from their error and help them enter the Church. I've cited two holy Priests Fr. Mueller and Fr. Damen. I can cite incidents in the lives of two Saintly Priests - St. John Marie Vianney and St. Padre Pio - where, beside the many souls they converted in life, these two Saints have informed or announced the hidden deathbed conversion of others whom the Saints and others in their family was praying for. True doctrine is important, and true doctrine is we all need to be Catholic to be saved; but doctrine without love of souls is dead, just like faith without works is dead, and bears no fruit. Fr. Damen made 10s of thousands of converts from Protestantism, and the love he had for the Protestant souls he ministered to and, by the grace of God, converted to the Faith, is evident. And love for souls is what is necessary for apostolates to bear fruit. Is the Church, even in Tradition, doing the same today? Every convert is a cause for joy, and a work of God's grace. But how many converts are we making and receiving? One reason is all of us are not praying and sacrificing for sinners and for conversions as much as Our Lord and Lady have asked. Those are works of love which we all should be doing more.

Faith is important, but not faith alone; faith with works of love is necessary, as St. Paul says. So, also true doctrine, with love for souls.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Stubborn on September 20, 2018, 06:01:35 AM
In another place the soul describes the entry into Heaven of a woman who was not Catholic but who died making an act of perfect contrition, which was accepted by God.
In light of the dogma, which binds us to believing under pain of mortal sin that there is no salvation outside the Church, how is it that you are able to believe that a woman who was not Catholic, was able to even make an act of perfect contrition at all? -  and on that account, made it to heaven. To believe that both the story and the dogma are true, is ipso facto to deny that one of them, the dogma, is true. Which is to say that if the non-Catholic was saved, then the dogma is a lie.

The only way anyone can believe the story, is to disbelieve the dogma, which is a sin. It is impossible to believe that both the dogma and the story are both true. That is, it is impossible to believe the dogma that non-Catholics cannot be saved, while at the same time believe that a non-Catholic was saved without denying the dogma.



Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 20, 2018, 08:33:07 AM
Quote
In another place the soul describes the entry into Heaven of a woman who was not Catholic but who died making an act of perfect contrition, which was accepted by God.
Poche,
The only way this story would be true, in light of Church dogma, is that we assume the lady USED TO BE catholic, and in her perfect act of contrition, she asked God to forgive her heresies.  The 2nd way, in theory, this story would be true is if we assume the lady WANTED TO BE catholic, was taking catechism classes, knew the requirements of the Church to be saved and died before baptism.

As you wrote the story, without particular details, if she was never catholic and unbaptized, her contrition would earn her Limbo and save her from Hell, but she could not gain heaven without baptism.  To believe otherwise is heresy.  And to promote the idea that she could gain heaven, WITHOUT ADDING THE PARTICULAR DOGMATICLY REQUIRED ASSUMPTIONS ABOVE, is also heresy.

The devil can easily appear as a soul from purgatory and teach heresy.  How do we even know if such an apparition was approved?  The devil has deceived many at the heretical and un-approved, multiple times condemned "apparitions" of Medjugorje  - but people still treat it like it's real and get infected with error.  BEWARE of false prophets!
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 20, 2018, 09:00:11 AM

OK, we've got two of you on record.  Where's NO?  Laddy says that ABL was in "grave error."  And struth believes in dogma, not fallible men like ABL.  What a champion of the faith he is!
How about you, Matthew?  Do you take a similar position?  Are you in the camp of these two theological CI giants? Do you reject "fallible men" like the Archbishop, while declaring unyielding, unwavering allegiance to true "dogma?"  This is your blog.  You reprint everything that +Williamson writes, who, along with the other bishops I am certain, holds the erroneous views of ABL.  Where do you stand, sir? After all, you say this is a Resistance site, and +W is the putative leader of that Resistance.  How about it?

Yeah, we knew you were asking the question because you're trolling to get us banned ... to confirm you in your erroneous/heretical views.

So, what, then, nothingsworth, you DO consider Archbishop Lefebvre to have been infallible?

You R&R guys accuse the man whom you assert to be the Vicar of Christ to be guilty of grave error and even heresy, and that's OK?  But +Lefebvre is above the Magisterium somehow?
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 20, 2018, 09:02:59 AM
In light of the dogma, which binds us to believing under pain of mortal sin that there is no salvation outside the Church, how is it that you are able to believe that a woman who was not Catholic, was able to even make an act of perfect contrition at all? -  and on that account, made it to heaven. To believe that both the story and the dogma are true, is ipso facto to deny that one of them, the dogma, is true. Which is to say that if the non-Catholic was saved, then the dogma is a lie.

The only way anyone can believe the story, is to disbelieve the dogma, which is a sin. It is impossible to believe that both the dogma and the story are both true. That is, it is impossible to believe the dogma that non-Catholics cannot be saved, while at the same time believe that a non-Catholic was saved without denying the dogma.

Well, the Council of Trent teaches that perfect contrition alone does not suffice to be restored to a state of justification, but that it must be combined with the intention to go to Confession ... which no non-Catholic could possibly have.  Not to mention, without supernatural faith, a perfect act of contrition is not even possible.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Nishant Xavier on September 21, 2018, 11:33:18 AM
Cardinal Billot explains that some Protestants can be material heretics. "Heretics are divided into formal and material. Formal heretics are those to whom the authority of the Church is sufficiently known; while material heretics are those who, being in invincible ignorance of the Church herself, in good faith choose some other guiding rule. So the heresy of material heretics is not imputable as sin and indeed it is not necessarily incompatible with that supernatural faith which is the beginning and root of all justification. For they may explicitly believe the principal articles, and believe the others, though not explicitly, yet implicitly, through their disposition of mind and good will to adhere to whatever is sufficiently proposed to them as having been revealed by God. In fact they can still belong to the body of the Church by desire and fulfil the other conditions necessary for salvation. Nonetheless, as to their actual incorporation in the visible Church of Christ, which is our present subject, our thesis makes no distinction between formal and material heretics, understanding everything in accordance with the notion of material heresy just given, which indeed is the only true and genuine one. For, if you understand by the expression material heretic one who, while professing subjection to the Church's Magisterium in matters of faith, nevertheless still denies something defined by the Church because he did not know it was defined, or, by the same token, holds an opinion opposed to Catholic doctrine because he falsely thinks that the Church teaches it, it would be quite absurd to place material heretics outside the body of the true Church; but on this understanding the legitimate use of the expression would be entirely perverted. For a material sin is said to exist only when what belongs to the nature of the sin takes place materially, but without advertence or deliberate will. But the nature of heresy consists in withdrawal from the rule of the ecclesiastical Magisterium and this does not take place in the case mentioned [of someone who is resolved to believe all that the Church teaches but makes a mistake as to what her teaching consists in], since this is a simple error of fact concerning what the rule dictates. And therefore there is no scope for heresy, even materially."

Cardinal Billot says a Catholic who makes a mistake of fact is not in fact any kind of heretic - not even material, and this is important because canon law of old had some censures for those who are even material heretics. So, material heretics are non-Catholics. 

The question is, can someone who is a material heretic obtain the grace of final perseverance? The answer Fr. Mueller and other theologians give is, if he co-operates with the graces God gives him, God in His mercy will give him that grace, by enabling him to repent of his Protestant heresies before death. But He won't give final perseverance to someone who has not become a Catholic. 

Material heretics, per the explanation of Cardinal Billot, can be in the state of grace. But they will either be lost for other mortal sins and thus perish in them as Protestants, or if they co-operate with God Who wants them to be converted and saved, they will be converted.

Thus the statement of Pope Gregory XVI that "men are saved only in the Catholic religion" and that heretics do not attain eternal life.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 21, 2018, 11:56:20 AM
Quote
For, if you understand by the expression material heretic one who, while professing subjection to the Church's Magisterium in matters of faith, nevertheless still denies something defined by the Church because he did not know it was defined, or,
This is not applicable to protestants because they either know the magisterium exists or they reject its authority.

Quote
by the same token, holds an opinion opposed to Catholic doctrine because he falsely thinks that the Church teaches it, it would be quite absurd to place material heretics outside the body of the true Church;
A protestant can't believe that the Church teaches something if they are "invincibly ignorant" that the Church exists.

Quote
while material heretics are those who, being in invincible ignorance of the Church herself, in good faith choose some other guiding rule.
This contradicts the middle quote.  He says that Protestants can only be material heretics if they are ignorant of the Church.
FAIL.  Billot fails in trying to explain the unexplainable.  This logic is ridiculous.  Typical modernist mumbo-jumbo.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: poche on September 22, 2018, 12:15:34 AM
In light of the dogma, which binds us to believing under pain of mortal sin that there is no salvation outside the Church, how is it that you are able to believe that a woman who was not Catholic, was able to even make an act of perfect contrition at all? -  and on that account, made it to heaven. To believe that both the story and the dogma are true, is ipso facto to deny that one of them, the dogma, is true. Which is to say that if the non-Catholic was saved, then the dogma is a lie.

The only way anyone can believe the story, is to disbelieve the dogma, which is a sin. It is impossible to believe that both the dogma and the story are both true. That is, it is impossible to believe the dogma that non-Catholics cannot be saved, while at the same time believe that a non-Catholic was saved without denying the dogma.
I heard asimilar story about Edwin Edwards. He was αssαssιnαtҽd. When he was shot he was brought to a Catholic hospital. The nun asked him if he wanted to see a priest. He said, "No sister, I am not a Catholic." The sister held his hand and led him in making an act of perfect contrition. I believe this sister helped him to make his peace with God and that he could well be in Purgatory if not in Heaven by now. If the religious sister more than 80 years ago who probably never heard the word VaticanII  during her lifetime thought that because he wasn't a Catholic he would go straight to Hell tehn why would she waste her time leading him in making an act of perfect contrition?
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 22, 2018, 02:07:07 PM
I heard asimilar story about Edwin Edwards. He was αssαssιnαtҽd. When he was shot he was brought to a Catholic hospital. The nun asked him if he wanted to see a priest. He said, "No sister, I am not a Catholic." The sister held his hand and led him in making an act of perfect contrition. I believe this sister helped him to make his peace with God and that he could well be in Purgatory if not in Heaven by now. If the religious sister more than 80 years ago who probably never heard the word VaticanII  during her lifetime thought that because he wasn't a Catholic he would go straight to Hell tehn why would she waste her time leading him in making an act of perfect contrition?

So poche does theology based upon the sentiments of a nun.

This error long predates Vatican II, and it was in fact the cause of Vatican II.

So, poche, how do you explain this particular story in light of the dogma that there's no salvation outside the Catholic Church?
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 22, 2018, 02:12:35 PM
The question is, can someone who is a material heretic obtain the grace of final perseverance? The answer Fr. Mueller and other theologians give is, if he co-operates with the graces God gives him, God in His mercy will give him that grace, by enabling him to repent of his Protestant heresies before death. But He won't give final perseverance to someone who has not become a Catholic.

Material heretics, per the explanation of Cardinal Billot, can be in the state of grace. But they will either be lost for other mortal sins and thus perish in them as Protestants, or if they co-operate with God Who wants them to be converted and saved, they will be converted.

Thus the statement of Pope Gregory XVI that "men are saved only in the Catholic religion" and that heretics do not attain eternal life.

So your position is analogous with that of Father Feeney, claiming that sincere Protestants can be in a state of justification but do not attain salvation without first converting.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 22, 2018, 02:34:34 PM
But the nature of heresy consists in withdrawal from the rule of the ecclesiastical Magisterium and this does not take place in the case mentioned [of someone who is resolved to believe all that the Church teaches but makes a mistake as to what her teaching consists in], since this is a simple error of fact concerning what the rule dictates. And therefore there is no scope for heresy, even materially."

If this accurately reflects the position of Billot, then this is an epic fail.  One need not ACTIVELY WITHDRAW from the rule of faith, but the rule of faith can be passively missing or absent.  Without this infallible and divine rule, supernatural faith is simply not possible.  Cf. St. Thomas ... and even the Catholic Encyclopedia.  It matters not whether the rule of faith has been actively rejected or whether it's simply absent and was never there in the first place.  If you want to play semantics and limit the term "heresy" to those who have actively withdrawn from the rule, whatever, but the essential truth is that no one who lacks the rule of faith can have supernatural faith.
Formal heresy is not to be equated with active sin; what formal means in this context is that the formal motive of faith is missing.  Billot wrote based on the false assumption that Protestants can indeed have the formal motive of faith that suffices for supernatural faith ... and then plays word games to make this fit.

Hypothetically, it is possible for someone to believe every single truth taught by the Church, but not believe it for the right reasons or with the proper formal motive.  Such a one would be a formal heretic, but not a material heretic.

Conversely, it is possible for someone to not believe the vast majority (everything but the core articles) and still have supernatural faith.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: poche on September 22, 2018, 10:57:06 PM
So poche does theology based upon the sentiments of a nun.

This error long predates Vatican II, and it was in fact the cause of Vatican II.

So, poche, how do you explain this particular story in light of the dogma that there's no salvation outside the Catholic Church?
It is not for me to judge. I leave everything to the mercy of God and I ask Him for a merciful judgement.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 23, 2018, 10:59:05 AM
It is not for me to judge. I leave everything to the mercy of God and I ask Him for a merciful judgement.

So it's not for you to affirm Catholic dogma.  Duly noted.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: poche on September 23, 2018, 10:42:24 PM
So it's not for you to affirm Catholic dogma.  Duly noted.
It is not that I refuse to affirm Catholic dogma. It is that I do not sit in the place of God.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 24, 2018, 08:43:36 AM
It is not that I refuse to affirm Catholic dogma. It is that I do not sit in the place of God.

:facepalm:
 
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Nishant Xavier on September 24, 2018, 09:29:01 AM
Yes, St. Augustine speaks a great deal about final perseverance, and St. Benedict's Centre says they believe as he did: "Saint Augustine taught, as is clear from this article’s epigram, that the providence of God would see to it that a justified catechumen would be baptized before death. God alone, in any event, knows which of those, with a votum for baptism and perfect contrition, He has justified. The Church can only assume, as the arm of Christ, the Principal Agent in baptism, that all are in need of receiving the sacramentin order to not only have all sin forgiven and abolished, but to be a member of the Church, the Body of Christ. Anticipating the rejoinder that no one is lost who dies in the state of grace, let me just affirm that I agree. Not only that I agree, but that I submit to this truth as I would a dogma of Faith. The Church, however, allows the faithful the freedom to believe that the providence of God will see to it that every person dying in the state of grace will also be baptized. This preserves the literal sense of Christ’s teaching in John 3:5: “Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” and His apostolic mandate to preach and baptize all nations in Mark 16: 15-16." A way to formulate this would be, someone who believes in Christ and makes an act of love of God, united with the desire of the Sacraments, can obtain or return to justification and the state of sanctifying grace; and if he perseveres in striving to love God and keep His commandments, above all in prayer, he will be given final perseverance by God after he has become Catholic.

And for those who opposed what I said earlier that the Eucharist is the great pledge of obtaining final perseverance, listen to St. Augustine's exegesis of the Lord's prayer, "The fourth petition is, Give us this day our daily bread, Matthew 6:11 where the blessed Cyprian shows how here also perseverance is understood to be asked for. Because he says, among other things, And we ask that this bread should be given to us daily, that we who are in Christ, and daily receive the Eucharist for the food of salvation, may not by the interposition of some heinous sin be separated from Christ's body by being withheld from communicating and prevented from partaking of the heavenly bread. These words of the holy man of God indicate that the saints ask for perseverance directly from God, when with this intention they say, Give us this day our daily bread, that they may not be separated from Christ's body, but may continue in that holiness in which they allow no crime by which they may deserve to be separated from it ...If, therefore, it be granted to him according to his prayer that he may not be led, certainly by the gift of God he persists in that sanctification which by the gift of God he has received." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15122.htm

Since final perseverance is a separate grace, to be obtained above all by the Sacraments and by prayer, receiving justification is not a guarantee that anyone will persevere. It is the gift of grace to anyone that he or she does persevere in faith and love until the end.

Ladislaus, I think SBC doesn't worry very much about whether or not a Protestant is in material heresy, and admits he may be one for a while. I read their website a while ago, that's if I remember correctly. I have no issue with that. But I think Cardinal Billot is right here (and also to clear up a possible misunderstanding - Cardinal Billot is talking about Catholics in the section you quoted, he is saying Catholics mistaken about a matter of fact are not material heretics; the term material heretics, according to +Billot, is reserved for Protestants in material heresy; Canon Law also speaks of "heretics who err in good faith" who are to be denied the Sacraments) and you will find similar sentiments in Cardinal Franzelin, Cardinal Lugo etc. This is Cardinal Lugo in De Virtute Fidei divinae, "Others acknowledge the Triune God and Christ, as most heretics do… Now if these people are excused from the sin of infidelity by reason of invincible ignorance, they can be saved. For those who are in invincible ignorance about some articles of faith but believe others, are not formally heretics, but they have supernatural faith, by which they believe true articles, and on this basis there can follow acts of perfect contrition, by which they can be justified and saved ...  One who is baptized as an infant by heretics, and is brought up by them in false doctrine, when he reaches adulthood, could for some time not be guilty of sin against the Catholic faith, as long as this had not been proposed to him in a way sufficient to oblige him to embrace it. However, if the Catholic faith were subsequently proposed to him in a way sufficient to oblige him to embrace it and to abandon errors contrary to it, and he still persisted in his errors, then he would be a heretic.” When Cardinal Billot says "there is no scope for heresy, even materially", he's saying erring Catholics are not material heretics.

Anyway, I'm not much interested in getting into a debate on that. What is necessary imho is (1) to believe Protestants, and others, should become Catholic to be saved and (2) to pray, work and sacrifice for their conversion and salvation. Some do not believe 1 very strongly, but still do 2. Some believe 1, but neglect 2. Let us do both, omitting nothing, and then we will be perfect disciples of Christ.
Title: Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 24, 2018, 02:55:57 PM
A friend passed this onto to me a little while ago, when we were discussing a separate thread.  It applies here. 

The great Orestes Brownson said that when a baptized child reaches the age of reason and a) fails to make an act of faith in the true religion or b) makes an act of faith in a false religion, such as taking part in non-Catholic worship, he loses the habit of faith.

Orestes Brownson explains: 

"The church teaches, as we have learned her doctrine, that the infant validly baptized, by whomsoever the baptism is administered, receives in the sacrament the infused habit of faith and sanctity, and that this habit (habitus) suffices for salvation till the child comes to the use of reason; hence all baptized infants dying in infancy are saved.  But when arrived at the use of reason, the child needs something beyond this infused habit, and is bound to elicit the act of faith.  The habit is not actual faith, and is only a supernatural facility, infused by grace, of eliciting the actual virtue of faith.  The habit of sanctity is lost by mortal sin, but the habit of faith, we are told, can be lost only by a positive act of infidelity.  This is not strictly true; for the habit may be lost by the omission to elicit the act of faith, which neither is nor can be elicited out of the Catholic Church; for out of her the credible object, which is Deus revelans et ecclesia proponens, is wanting.  Consequently, outside the church there can be no salvation for anyone, even though baptized, who has come to the use of reason.  The habit given in baptism, then, ceases to suffice, and the obligation to elicit the act begins."