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Poll

Can Protestants be saved, without becoming Catholic, at least in the hour of death?

Yes, they can be saved, as Protestants, provided invincible ignorance excuses them from heresy.
8 (19.5%)
I'm not sure if they can be saved. I assume they can be and so it's ok to leave them in ignorance.
0 (0%)
I'm not sure if they can be saved. I assume they can't be and thus I pray and work to convert them.
9 (22%)
No, Protestants cannot be saved without having become Catholic before death.
22 (53.7%)
Other (please explain).
2 (4.9%)

Total Members Voted: 34

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Author Topic: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?  (Read 6023 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2018, 09:09:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on September 17, 2018, 08:32:48 AM
    I'm having trouble getting my head around this one.  Could you please give a hypothetical scenario in which this occurs.

    I've never heard of the Catholic Church but have a copy of the Bible.  So I start reading it and begin formulating one incorrect proposition after another.  Because my own interpretation of the Bible is my rule of faith, I lack the formal rule of faith.  Read below from St. Thomas (quoted in the Catholic Encyclopedia):

    Quote
    The teaching of the Church's Doctors on this point has ever been the same, and it will suffice if we quote two passages from St. Thomas, who, however, has no set treatise on a question which he took for granted. "The formal object of faith", he says, "is the First Truth as manifested in Holy Scripture and in the Church's teaching. Hence if anyone does not adhere as to an infallible and Divine rule to the Church's teaching, which proceeds from the Church's truth manifested in Holy Scripture, such an one has not the habit of faith, but holds the truths of faith not by faith but by some other principle" (II-II, Q. v, a. 3)

    So it's possible to hold the truths of faith (materially) but not "by faith" (formally).

    So if you have the incorrect (non-infallible and non-Divine) rule of faith, you lack the habit (aka supernatural virtue) of faith.  You could be inculpably ignorant of the existence of this rule, but even if this rule is lacking inculpably, supernatural faith cannot exist without it.

    In order words, the faith can be lacking, purely negatively, by its absence.

    So the formal vs. material distinction has less to do with the degree of sinfulness than with the presence or absence of the formal motive of faith.
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    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #31 on: September 17, 2018, 12:13:33 PM »
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    • Thank you, dear Jayne, for your advice. I'll try to do as you say. Fr. Hartrup, SSPX, is my confessor, and spiritual director. I told myself I wouldn't get dragged into bitter controversy on this and regret doing so. All I wish to say, about the Holy Eucharist, the Bread of Life, is that it is our great and priceless pledge of obtaining final perseverance. And thus we must strive with all the means in our power to receive it frequently and daily if possible, and labor with all our zeal to ensure all our loved ones are able to do so. For Catholic Christians, that involves exhorting each other on the great gift of the Catholic Faith which is required for us to receive Our Lord in Holy Communion. For separated Christians, our zeal must be to show them the necessity of receiving it, so that, by the grace of God, they may enter the Church, and experience the joy of receiving Our Lord in Holy Communion at least a few times in their life.

    Thanks, Ladislaus, for the concern. I appreciate it. But I'm not too worried about it - I think there are only slight misunderstandings of some of the issues involved and most Traditional Catholics would agree about the best approach for the Church to take if some small difficulties were cleared up. But I will never cease to preach that the Holy Eucharist is the surest pledge of our salvation, a wondrous blessing from Infinite Love, the medicine of immortality, the remedy for all our spiritual defects. If ever I became a Priest and had the power to do so, I would have every Catholic child under my authority make the 9 First Fridays, the 5 First Saturdays, and the Double Great Novena to which the Lord Jesus promised the grace never to commit mortal sin again. Then, I would impress upon Catholic children that the most priceless treasure they have is the gift of their Catholic Faith, which they should strive to bring all their friends to.

    I don't disagree much with you, Lad, and even if some Catholics disagree slightly with those who take a slightly stronger approach on EENS, let it be so for now. The important thing is we strive, by prayer and our efforts, to help our non-Catholic friends come to the Faith.

    Fr. Mueller enlists many reasons in his Catechism of Christian Doctrine, and I think they are all worth reflecting on. Fr. Damen, friend and contemporary of Fr. Mueller, who by the grace of God, brought tens of thousands of Protestants into the Catholic Church, took a similar approach to what I think you have been mentioning - that Protestants who reject the Church's rule of faith in preference for private interpretation will not have divine faith. https://www.olrl.org/apologetics/one_church.shtml Full sermon here. An excerpt below.

    Quote
    I have said that out of the Church there can be no Divine Faith. What is Divine Faith? When we believe a thing upon the authority of God, and believe it without doubt, without hesitating. Now, all our separated brethren outside of the Catholic Church take the private interpretation of the Bible for their guide; but the private interpretation of the Bible can never give them Divine Faith ... On what does he believe? On what authority? On his own opinion and judgment. And what is that? A human opinion, human testimony, and, therefore, a human faith. He cannot say positively, "I am sure, positively sure, as sure as there is a God in heaven, that this is the meaning of the text." Therefore, he has no other authority but his own opinion and judgment, and what his preacher tells him. But the preacher is a smart man. There are many smart Unitarian preachers, also, but that proves nothing; it is only human authority, and nothing else, and, therefore, only human faith. What is human faith? Believing a thing on the testimony of man. Divine Faith is believing on the testimony of God.

    II.
    The Catholic has Divine Faith, and why? Because the Catholic says: "I believe in such and such a thing." Why? "Because the Church teaches me so." And why do you believe the Church? "Because God has commanded me to believe the teaching of the Church; and God has threatened me with damnation if I do not believe the Church, and we are taught by St. Peter, in his epistle, that there is no private prophecy or interpretation of the Scriptures, for the unlearned and unstable wrest the very Scriptures, the Bible, to their own damnation."

    That is strong language, my dear people, but that is the language of St. Peter, the head of the Apostles....And, therefore, my dearly beloved separated brethren, think over it seriously. You have a soul to be saved, and that soul must be saved or damned; either one or the other, it will dwell with God in heaven or with the devil in hell; therefore, seriously meditate upon it.

    When I gave my Mission in Brooklyn several Protestants became Catholics. Among them there was a very highly educated and intelligent Virginian. He was a Presbyterian. After he had listened to my lecture he went to see his minister, and he asked him to be kind enough to explain a text of the Bible. The minister gave him the meaning. "Well, now," said the gentleman, "are you positive and sure that is the meaning of the text, for several other Protestants explain it differently?" "Why, my dear young man," says the preacher, "we never can be certain of our faith." "Well, then," says the young man, "good-bye to you: If I cannot be sure of my faith in the Protestant church, I will go where I can." And he became a Catholic ... I have said this evening hard things, but if St. Paul were here tonight, in this pulpit, he would have said harder things still. I have said them, however, not through a spirit of unkindness, but through a spirit of love, and a spirit of charity, in the hope of opening your eyes that your souls my be saved. It is love for your salvation, my dearly beloved Protestant brethren, for which I would gladly give my heart's blood; my love for your salvation that has made me preach to you as I have done.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #32 on: September 17, 2018, 12:35:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: XavierSem on September 17, 2018, 12:13:33 PM
    Thanks, Ladislaus, for the concern. I appreciate it. But I'm not too worried about it - I think there are only slight misunderstandings of some of the issues involved and most Traditional Catholics would agree about the best approach for the Church to take if some small difficulties were cleared up.

    Well, unfortunately, we're not just talking about "slight misunderstandings".  There's a theology prevalent among Traditional Catholics that even infidels can be saved without first converting ... based on their "sincerity" and "good will".  So there's a resurgence of Pelagianism, and this ecclesiology is in fact at the root of the Vatican II errors.  You'll be surprised at how much animosity you'll find against the position that Protestants as Protestants cannot be saved.
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    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #33 on: September 17, 2018, 12:54:59 PM »
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    • Quote
    You'll be surprised at how much animosity you'll find against the position that Protestants as Protestants cannot be saved.

    No worries. Our goal should only be to increase in merit and advance in holiness each and every day and hour of our lives. If all the world is against us, because we preach the love of God and His Church, the necessity of the Catholic Faith and the Sacraments, of Penance and of good works, of devotion to Our Lady and seeking Her intercession and mediation, what is that to us? If God be for us, who can be against us? I believe all Traditional Catholics working for restoration will soon see themselves as being on the same side. I certainly don't see anyone, even those who disagreed with me on this thread, as being an "enemy" to be "defeated", but rather a brother or sister or friend to exhort or receive advice from. But thanks for the warning, if it turns out as you say, I'll be forewarned.

    My opinion is focusing on final perseverance is safer and surer, or at least more likely to be accepted by our fellow Traditional Catholics, than some of the other arguments and demonstrations made use of by Fr. Damen and Fr. Mueller. Fr. Mueller is quite clear at the same time that we cannot pass final judgment on any other soul, but we can and must pray and work for their conversion and salvation. If a soul receives the grace of a deathbed conversion, he or she would receive justification and perseverance together.

    Quote
    Q. Are all those who are out of the Church equally guilty and damnable before God?
    A. No; some are more guilty than others.
    Q. Who are least guilty and damnable?
    A. Those who, without any fault of theirs, do not know Jesus Christ or His doctrine at all.
    Q. Who are most guilty and damnable?
    A. Those who know the Catholic Church to be the only true Church, but do not embrace her faith, as also those who could know her if they would candidly search, but who, through indifference and other culpable motives, neglect to do so.
    Q. What are we to think of the salvation of those who are out of the pale of the Church without any fault of theirs, and who never had any opportunity of knowing better?
    A. Their inculpable ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in His infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the Catholic faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance.
    Q. Is it then right for us to say that one who was not received into the Church before his death, is damned?
    A. No.
    Q. Why not?
    A. Because we cannot know for certain what takes place between God and the soul at the awful moment of death.
    Q. What do you mean by this?
    A. I mean that God, in His infinite mercy, may enlighten, at the hour of death, one who is not yet a Catholic, so that he may see the truth of the Catholic faith, be truly sorry for his sins, and sincerely desire to die a good Catholic.
    Q. What do we say of those who receive such an extraordinary grace, and die in this manner?
    A. We say of them that they die united, at least, to the soul of the Catholic Church, and are saved.
    Q. What, then, awaits all those who are out of the Catholic Church, and die without having received such an extraordinary grace at the hour of death?
    A. Eternal damnation.
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    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #34 on: September 17, 2018, 01:23:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: XavierSem on September 17, 2018, 12:54:59 PM
    Fr. Mueller is quite clear at the same time that we cannot pass final judgment on any other soul, but we can and must pray and work for their conversion and salvation. If a soul receives the grace of a deathbed conversion, he or she would receive justification and perseverance together.
    No, we cannot pass final judgement, but we must believe and can repeat what the Church herself infallibly teaches about one who dies outside the Church. In that situation, unless one is baptized (in the case of an infidel), or instructed in the Catholic faith and accepts the faith prior to death, there is no hope of the grace of a deathbed conversion so called. The person cannot save himself nor can he be saved without first accepting the truths of the Catholic faith.   

    Note Fr. Muller's answer:
    Quote
    Q. What are we to think of the salvation of those who are out of the pale of the Church without any fault of theirs, and who never had any opportunity of knowing better?

    A. Their inculpable ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in His infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the Catholic faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance.
    Here is a good example of what Fr. Mueller is talking about:

    John Wayne dies a day after being baptized
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    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline christy

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #35 on: September 17, 2018, 02:53:24 PM »
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    • Seriously? 
    Of course Protestants can be saved.

    If someone is a Protestant yet totally believes that they are in the right religion, and have not been properly exposed to Catholicism, they can be saved.

    The error and sin only begins once they have a doubt, that they did not research, or they know they are not in the right religion.

    It is absurd to believe that so many thousand of good-willed people go to hell.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #36 on: September 17, 2018, 03:16:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: chritsy on September 17, 2018, 02:53:24 PM
    Seriously?
    Of course Protestants can be saved.

    If someone is a Protestant yet totally believes that they are in the right religion, and have not been properly exposed to Catholicism, they can be saved.

    The error and sin only begins once they have a doubt, that they did not research, or they know they are not in the right religion.

    It is absurd to believe that so many thousand of good-willed people go to hell.
    Outside of the Church There is Absolutely No Salvation 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #37 on: September 17, 2018, 03:30:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: chritsy on September 17, 2018, 02:53:24 PM
    Seriously?
    Of course Protestants can be saved.

    If someone is a Protestant yet totally believes that they are in the right religion, and have not been properly exposed to Catholicism, they can be saved.

    The error and sin only begins once they have a doubt, that they did not research, or they know they are not in the right religion.

    It is absurd to believe that so many thousand of good-willed people go to hell.

    So, "sincerity saves" = Pelagianism.  I'm sorry, but see my last few posts.  Sincerity has nothing to do with whether one has supernatural Catholic faith.  That simply pertains to whether they have committed an actual sin of infidelity.  Supernatural faith can simply be lacking, negatively.  To say otherwise is pure Pelagian heresy.
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    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #38 on: September 17, 2018, 04:08:13 PM »
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    • christy must have been a troll, I clicked on her name and it says this:


    The user whose profile you are trying to view does not exist.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #39 on: September 17, 2018, 04:44:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 17, 2018, 04:08:13 PM
    christy must have been a troll, I clicked on her name and it says this:


    The user whose profile you are trying to view does not exist.
    No she just changed her username. 
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #40 on: September 17, 2018, 07:47:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on September 17, 2018, 04:44:40 PM
    No she just changed her username.
    .
    So then where are her other 5 posts?
    .
    ETA: Just found this one: 
    https://www.cathinfo.com/teen-catholic-hangout/funny-stuff/msg626873/#msg626873
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #41 on: September 18, 2018, 03:09:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: christy on September 17, 2018, 02:53:24 PM
    Seriously?
    Of course Protestants can be saved.

    If someone is a Protestant yet totally believes that they are in the right religion, and have not been properly exposed to Catholicism, they can be saved.

    The error and sin only begins once they have a doubt, that they did not research, or they know they are not in the right religion.

    It is absurd to believe that so many thousand of good-willed people go to hell.
    Who is more "good willed" and do not "know they are not in the right religion" than an unbaptized baby or a totally mentally handicapped? Yet they are not saved if the are not baptized. 
    (of course, it is extremely likely that the person who wrote the quote above also believes that unbaptized infants go to heaven)
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #42 on: September 18, 2018, 03:18:04 AM »
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    • Quote
    Do You Believe Protestants as Protestants Can be Saved?
    Today, the majority of people who call themselves Protestants in the USA, are not baptized. Keep that in mind.

    Saying a Protestant can be saved is like saying a sunken ship floats. A sunken ship is a sunken ship.

    If someone comes along and rectifies the reality, and makes the ship float, then the ship is not a sunk ship anymore, it is a floating ship. One can't then say that it is a sunk ship that floats. 


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    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #43 on: September 18, 2018, 03:29:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: christy on September 17, 2018, 02:53:24 PM
    Seriously?
    Of course Protestants can be saved.

    If someone is a Protestant  yet totally believes that they are in the right religion, and have not been properly exposed to Catholicism, they can be saved.

    The error and sin only begins once they have a doubt, that they did not research, or they know they are not in the right religion.

    It is absurd to believe that so many thousand of good-willed people go to hell.
    If the writer believes what he wrote then he has to also believe that:

    "Seriously?
    Of course Protestants, Muslim, Buddhists, Hindus and people in all religions can be saved.
    If someone is a Protestant, Muslim, Buddhists, Hindus and people in all religions yet totally believes that they are in the right religion, and have not been properly exposed to Catholicism, they can be saved.
    The error and sin only begins once they have a doubt, that they did not research, or they know they are not in the right religion.
    It is absurd to believe that so many thousand of good-willed people go to hell."
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    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #44 on: September 18, 2018, 06:55:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: christy on September 17, 2018, 02:53:24 PM
    Seriously?
    Of course Protestants can be saved.

    If someone is a Protestant yet totally believes that they are in the right religion, and have not been properly exposed to Catholicism, they can be saved.

    The error and sin only begins once they have a doubt, that they did not research, or they know they are not in the right religion.

    It is absurd to believe that so many thousand of good-willed people go to hell.
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    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed
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