Read an Interview with Matthew, the owner of CathInfo

Poll

Can Protestants be saved, without becoming Catholic, at least in the hour of death?

Yes, they can be saved, as Protestants, provided invincible ignorance excuses them from heresy.
6 (17.1%)
I'm not sure if they can be saved. I assume they can be and so it's ok to leave them in ignorance.
0 (0%)
I'm not sure if they can be saved. I assume they can't be and thus I pray and work to convert them.
7 (20%)
No, Protestants cannot be saved without having become Catholic before death.
21 (60%)
Other (please explain).
1 (2.9%)

Total Members Voted: 35

Author Topic: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?  (Read 2552 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15656
  • Reputation: +8260/-2595
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2018, 07:46:22 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • There are no writings of Anna Katharina Emmerick. All there is are two dubious books written by the dubious poet and romanticist Clemens Brentano, who interviewed her at length.

    Correct.  Yet hollingworth prefers these works to the teaching of the Magisterium and prefers the poetry of Brentano to the serious theology of Father Mueller.

    Offline XavierSem

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1016
    • Reputation: +24/-5
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #16 on: September 17, 2018, 04:04:12 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Pope Gregory XVI taught, "Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.

    Quote from: forlorn
    A baptised Protestant child under the age of 7 most likely would be saved.

    Sure, forlorn, this isn't the issue here at all. Every baptized child is Catholic. He ceases to be Catholic only when he becomes personally responsible for the errors of his sect, or when he denies the fundamental mysteries of the Catholic Faith, the Trinity and the Incarnation.

    Let's be practical here - we're not talking about the hypothetical 7 or 10 year child, or even a 18 year old man or woman. We are talking about our Protestant co-workers, friends, colleagues, relatives, persons we know and generally talk to. Should we, by prayer and sacrifice above all, and secondly by evangelism and effort, work for their conversion to the Catholic Faith, as the only means to deliver them from hell. If you say yes, you agree with me. If no, then we disagree. The statement of Pope Gregory XVI is very clear. If we told it to a Protestant, he would understand it. If we are going to say Protestants can be anonymous Catholics, we are only one step away from pagans-can-be-saved-as-anonymous-Christians Rahner's theory.

    Quote
    If there's sufficient invincible ignorance, this means that they are truly Catholic and not Protestant.

    Ok, Ladislaus. What about a 70 or 80 year old Protestant neighbor of ours, who has lived among Catholics all his or her life, and been told many times that they have to be Catholic to be saved. Will you say they are invincibly ignorant? My answer is invincible ignorance is not the issue. If they are culpably ignorant, they are formal heretics. If they are invincibly ignorant, they are material heretics. But being a material heretic is not the same as obtaining final perseverance. One of the effects of the Holy Eucharist, Ladislaus, is to prevent us from falling into future mortal sins, and to deliver us from daily venial faults. Trent says this. Similarly, all the Sacraments have their proper effects. A 70 or 80 year old Protestant has received none of them after Baptism. A Catholic Christian, who is striving to obtain final perseverance, has received several.

    "But it is not enough to resolve never more to lose God; it is moreover necessary to adopt the means by which you may be preserved from the danger of losing him. The first means is, to avoid the occasions of sin; of this we have already spoken. The second is, to frequent the sacraments of penance and the Eucharist. In the house which is often swept there is no uncleanness. By the sacrament of penance the soul is purified; by it it obtains not only the remission of sins, but also help to resist temptations. The Communion is called the bread of heaven; because as the body cannot live without earthly food, so the soul cannot live without this celestial bread. Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you (John, vi, 54).

    But on the other hand, to those who frequently eat this bread, is promised eternal life. If any man eat of this bread he shall live forever (John, vi, 52). Hence the Council of Trent calls the Communion a medicine which delivers us from venial, and preserves us from mortal sins (Sess. 13, cap. 2). " http://www.traditionalcatholicpriest.com/2017/06/17/final-perseverance-preparation-death-considerations-xxxi/

    Moreover, final perseverance is to be sought primarily by prayer, St. Alphonsus and the Doctors tell us. But one should not depend so much on one's own prayers, as one should on the prayers of the Mother of God and the Saints. And this too Protestants don't do. And nobody who considers this reasonably will not see how precarious is the state of our Protestant friends and how desperately the Church is necessary.

    Unfortunately, Pope Benedict XVI, in his discussion of EENS, says we no longer question that non-Catholics can be saved, but the real question, he says, is "why is the Church still necessary"? Sadly, this is where it ends up.

    I'm not interested in getting into an interminable theoretical dispute. Are we interested in Protestantism remaining for another 500 years or are we going to pray and work for its extirpation in the next 50? We have the prophesies of the Age of Mary to come, when the Mother of God will triumph over all heresies, and Protestantism will disappear. We must believe and hope in that promise, and pray and work to obtain it. Part of that is seriousness about EENS, and the necessity for all to be Catholic. If just 1000000 Catholics would seriously resolve, by prayer and sacrifice primarily, to offer all their good works, Masses, Holy Communions, in union with the Sacred and Immaculate Heart, to obtain just one convert every year, anywhere in the world, and teach all Catholics and future converts they meet to do the same, there will be 10 million converts in 10 years, and it will keep increasing rapidly. This is our duty as Catholic Christians. If ecumenism had not confused many Catholics, Traditional Catholics included, we would all be doing just this daily.

    What is the essence of false ecumenism? It is believing adult Protestants, who have tons of opportunities to convert, can be saved without being converted. St. Kolbe called it one of the most dangerous heresies of our time. This great Saint taught us every Knight of the Immaculata must work to counter false ecumenism and resist it by diametrically opposite action. St. Montfort says it is liberalism not to believe that devotion to Our Lady - because the grace of final perseverance is dispensed by Her hands, and primarily through Her prayers - is necessary for salvation. Needless to say, most adult Protestants have not invoked Our Lady's aid for salvation via the Hail Mary and similar prayers either. All these are part of what makes the conversion of our Protestant friends so urgent.

    "§ 1. Necessary to all men to attain salvation.

    40. The learned and pious Jesuit, Suarez, the erudite and devout Justus Lipsius, doctor of Louvain, and many others have proved invincibly, from the sentiments of the Fathers [among others, St. Augustine, St. Ephrem, deacon of Edessa, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Germanus of Constantinople, St. John Damascene, St. Anselm, St. Bernard, St. Bernardine, St. Thomas and St. Bonaventure], that devotion to our Blessed Lady is necessary to salvation, and . . . that it is an infallible mark of reprobation to have no esteem and love for the holy Virgin; while on the other hand, it is an infallible mark of predestination to be entirely and truly devoted to Her."

    http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/mary15d.htm

    A final point, which Pope Benedict inadvertently touches on, is Catholics do not know how precious these things are - devotion to the Eucharist, devotion to Mary, etc - because now they are taught we can as well be saved without them. So, they are not esteemed.
    "And as to yourself, tell them that because you are imperfect, weak and infirm, you stand in need of Communion." (Introduction to the Devout Life)


    Offline Stubborn

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8781
    • Reputation: +3463/-720
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #17 on: September 17, 2018, 06:04:51 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • A baptised Protestant child under the age of 7 most likely would be saved. Through Baptism we are joined with the Church(and even Baptisms by heretics can be valid), it's only by the embracement of heresy that Protestants are separated from the Church. A child under 7 having not achieved the age of reason would be spared the sin of heresy AFAIK and therefore still count as a member of the Church. Although that would be in spite of the child being a Protestant.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.
    You are not wrong.

    "...But this world, as far as men go, need not be a failure! Everybody could know about the Catholic Faith! There is not a city in the United States where you could not find it. Little babies could not find it, I grant you, but little Protestant babies who die before they reach the age of reason are saved. Baptism made them Catholics. That is very sweet, is it not? There is only one Baptism. And every baptized baby is a subject of our Holy Father the Pope. (When you go to Heaven, most of the Americans you meet will be under seven years of age!) But you are not babies, and I am not talking to you as babies...." - Fr. Feeney, Bread of Life
    I say that it is licit to resist the Roman Pontiff by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior." St. Robert Bellarmine

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 17898
    • Reputation: +8168/-615
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #18 on: September 17, 2018, 07:28:30 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Hi, Jayne. No, I believe you are mistaken. I am asking whether Protestants who do not receive the Body and Blood of the Lord can be saved? we must consider that, at least, a moral impossibility, on par with someone being raised from the dead.
    .
    Correction:
    No, your poll is not asking anything about Holy Communion. What you're trying to do is change the meaning of what your poll asked in the first place after several posts have made you realize you were entirely wrong from the start, in thinking that Catholic dogma is subject to popular opinion -- or, scraping the bottom of the barrel, anyone can believe what he wants to believe like you're attempting to do with your own personal doctrine on salvation.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline XavierSem

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1016
    • Reputation: +24/-5
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #19 on: September 17, 2018, 07:33:18 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Read this again, Neil.

    "Q. Are there any other reasons to show that heretics, or Protestants who die out of the Roman Catholic Church, are not saved?
    A. There are several. They cannot be saved because
    1. They have no divine faith.
    2. They make a liar of Jesus Christ, of the holy Ghost, and of the Apostles.
    3. They have no faith in Christ.
    4. They fell away from the true Church of Christ.
    5. They are too proud to submit to the Pope, the Vicar of Christ.
    6. They cannot perform any good works whereby they can attain heaven.
    7. They do not receive the Body and Blood of Christ.
    8. They die in their sins.
    9. They ridicule and blaspheme the Mother of God and His Saints.
    10. They slander the spouse of Jesus Christ—the Catholic Church."
    "And as to yourself, tell them that because you are imperfect, weak and infirm, you stand in need of Communion." (Introduction to the Devout Life)


    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 17898
    • Reputation: +8168/-615
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #20 on: September 17, 2018, 07:39:37 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Read this again, Neil.

    "Q. Are there any other reasons to show that heretics, or Protestants who die out of the Roman Catholic Church, are not saved?
    A. There are several. They cannot be saved because
    1. They have no divine faith.
    2. They make a liar of Jesus Christ, of the holy Ghost, and of the Apostles.
    3. They have no faith in Christ.
    4. They fell away from the true Church of Christ.
    5. They are too proud to submit to the Pope, the Vicar of Christ.
    6. They cannot perform any good works whereby they can attain heaven.
    7. They do not receive the Body and Blood of Christ.
    8. They die in their sins.
    9. They ridicule and blaspheme the Mother of God and His Saints.
    10. They slander the spouse of Jesus Christ—the Catholic Church."
    .
    Read this again XS -- your poll offers nothing regarding the Eucharist:

    Can Protestants be saved, without becoming Catholic, at least in the hour of death?

    Yes, they can be saved, as Protestants, provided invincible ignorance excuses them from heresy.

    5 (22.7%)
    I'm not sure if they can be saved. I assume they can be and so it's ok to leave them in ignorance.

    0 (0%)
    I'm not sure if they can be saved. I assume they can't be and thus I pray and work to convert them.

    4 (18.2%)
    No, Protestants cannot be saved without having become Catholic before death.

    12 (54.5%)
    Other (please explain).
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline XavierSem

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1016
    • Reputation: +24/-5
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #21 on: September 17, 2018, 07:41:19 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Not interested in getting into a meaningless squabble. Try to understand Fr. Mueller's point. There are many reasons, not just one, why heretics who die as heretics, will not be saved.

    Fr.M: "There are several. They cannot be saved because ... They do not receive the Body and Blood of Christ."
    "And as to yourself, tell them that because you are imperfect, weak and infirm, you stand in need of Communion." (Introduction to the Devout Life)

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 17898
    • Reputation: +8168/-615
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #22 on: September 17, 2018, 07:47:25 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Not interested in getting into a meaningless squabble. Try to understand Fr. Mueller's point. There are many reasons, not just one, why heretics who die as heretics, will not be saved.

    Fr.M: "There are several. They cannot be saved because ... They do not receive the Body and Blood of Christ."
    .
    It takes a special brand of idiot to compose a poll, wait for replies to the poll, then try to say the poll was asking something else.
    .
    You ought to learn something about conducting polls before you try to change the concept itself. 
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline XavierSem

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1016
    • Reputation: +24/-5
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #23 on: September 17, 2018, 07:51:33 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Your reading comprehension must be less than nil. Someone more patient than me will have to help you.

    This is the question Fr. Mueller was asking and answering. Q. Are there any other reasons to show that heretics, or Protestants who die out of the Roman Catholic Church, are not saved?

    Go read the Catechism and the sources I've given again. You have given no source. And you're just interested in picking a fight. 

    No thanks.
    "And as to yourself, tell them that because you are imperfect, weak and infirm, you stand in need of Communion." (Introduction to the Devout Life)

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 17898
    • Reputation: +8168/-615
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #24 on: September 17, 2018, 08:08:04 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Your reading comprehension must be less than nil. Someone more patient than me will have to help you.

    This is the question Fr. Mueller was asking and answering. Q. Are there any other reasons to show that heretics, or Protestants who die out of the Roman Catholic Church, are not saved?

    Go read the Catechism and the sources I've given again. You have given no source. And you're just interested in picking a fight.

    No thanks.
    .
    Keep up the idiocy, and prove you're an idiot.
    Where is Mueller in your poll?
    Where is the Eucharist in your poll?
    Where do you say you're conducting a different poll now?
    You've got egg on your face and you're embarrassed.  
    Face the facts.
    Maybe you're used to getting away with your antics elsewhere.
    News flash:
    Not going to happen on CI.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15656
    • Reputation: +8260/-2595
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #25 on: September 17, 2018, 08:16:28 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • XavierSem, you're not going to last very long in any Traditional Catholic seminary that I know of.  You'll quickly be labeled a "Feeneyite heretic".  [This is not a criticism but an observation, since I personally identify with "Feeneyism" myself.]


    Offline Jaynek

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3003
    • Reputation: +1399/-742
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #26 on: September 17, 2018, 08:19:44 AM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0
  • XavierSem, I think what you are trying to say is actually correct.   Unfortunately you have not expressed yourself clearly.  Several people have tried to tell you this.

    From my perspective, one of the major problems facing the Church since Vatican II has been lack of clarity and precision in supposedly magisterial teaching.  Being concerned with clarity is not petty squabbling about words.  It is a desperate need of the Church right now.  You can't just put something out there and expect everyone to guess what you mean.

    I really appreciate your zeal for the Faith and tend to appreciate your posts.  Zeal, however, needs to be tempered by humility.  I suggest you pray about and discuss with your spiritual director your ability to accept correction.  Also, some people on this forum are going to offer corrections harshly.  Do not be discouraged by this.  It offers you an excellent opportunity to grow in virtue.

    (And if you don't have a spiritual director yet, I recommend you make finding one a high priority.)
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15656
    • Reputation: +8260/-2595
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #27 on: September 17, 2018, 08:21:15 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • If they are invincibly ignorant, they are material heretics.

    Not necessarily.  Depending on the degree of ignorance, they may be formal heretics.  If they lack sufficient knowledge to be able to have the formal motive of faith, then they are still formal heretics ... even if the sin of (active) infidelity is not imputed to them due to their ignorance (cf. St. Thomas).  Formal heresy is not (necessarily) to be equated with the sin of infidelity.  It has to do with the formal motive of faith (vs. the material objects of faith), the WHY of belief vs. the WHAT.  Theoretically, someone could believe very single teaching of the Church and still be a formal heretic.  Also, one could be invincibly ignorant and not culpable and still be a formal heretic.

    Offline Jaynek

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3003
    • Reputation: +1399/-742
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #28 on: September 17, 2018, 08:32:48 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  •  Also, one could be invincibly ignorant and not culpable and still be a formal heretic.
    I'm having trouble getting my head around this one.  Could you please give a hypothetical scenario in which this occurs.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Stubborn

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8781
    • Reputation: +3463/-720
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Do you believe Protestants, as Protestants, can be saved?
    « Reply #29 on: September 17, 2018, 08:44:35 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Invincible ignorance should never be introduced into any EENS discussion because God alone knows those whom He chose to leave invincibly ignorant of Himself and the means of salvation, iow, no one. Facing that reality, being invincibly ignorant means that only when one is brain damaged and on that account is incapable of learning, period. Other than that, no one is invincibly ignorant of the true faith and means of salvation except by their own choice.    
    I say that it is licit to resist the Roman Pontiff by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior." St. Robert Bellarmine

     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16