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From Scannel's Manual of Catholic Theology #2 - Imprimatur Cardinal Manning 1898

Yes
4 (80%)
No
1 (20%)

Total Members Voted: 5

Author Topic: Do you agree with this definition of BOD?  (Read 356 times)

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Offline ihsv

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Re: Do you agree with this definition of BOD?
« Reply #15 on: Yesterday at 04:19:51 PM »
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  • Can a man enter the Kingdom of God who has not been born again of water and the Holy Ghost?
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you agree with this definition of BOD?
    « Reply #16 on: Yesterday at 04:43:40 PM »
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  • So, it's not really a definition but more of an explanation and attempted proof.

    As far as a definition, no definition should be required ... if it's true that BoD is some kind of dogma and its denial heretical.  Church does not and cannot demand the assent of faith to a word or phrase, but only to propositions.  We can't just believe in a "BoD" without knowing what it is that we must believe about it.  So the very fact that there are many "definitions" floating around is in fact prima facie evident that it's never been defined.

    Now, as far as articulations or explanations of BoD go ... this one is actually fairly solid and is not heretical (like most of them).  He's very careful to avoid making the heretical statement that we can be saved without Baptism, but says we can be saved without ACTUAL (reception of) Baptism.  That's the language of St. Robert Bellarmine who was very carefuly to put it that way to avoid the impression of denying Trent's dogmatic teaching that Baptism is necessary for salvation, since if you claimed that one can be saved WITHOUT it, that would be heretical.  But most people today are sloppy and invariably define it heretically.

    So this is acceptable as an explanation or articulation.

    Now, the proofs he adduces are dishonest, taken out of context, misapplied, and just nonsensical.  I could take the time to refute them, but won't.  I don't believe that BoD exists, but if it did, this would be the proper way to explain and articulate it.


    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Do you agree with this definition of BOD?
    « Reply #17 on: Yesterday at 04:49:39 PM »
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  • Now, as far as articulations or explanations of BoD go ... this one is actually fairly solid and it not heretical (like most of them).  He's very careful to avoid making the heretical statement that we can be saved without Baptism, but says we can be saved without ACTUAL (reception of) Baptism.  That's the language of St. Robert Bellarmine who was very carefuly to put it that way to avoid the impression of denying Trent's dogmatic teaching that Baptism is necessary for salvation, since if you claimed that one can be saved WITHOUT it, that would be heretical.  But most people today are sloppy and invariably define it heretically.

    So this is acceptable as an explanation or articulation.
    Thanks for the confirmation...

    And that was the point of this whole little exercise.

    If one holds this version - they are "safe".

    If you don't want to hold it - that is OK too.

    We don't have the final word one way or the other, but I agree it sounds rather loopy.



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you agree with this definition of BOD?
    « Reply #18 on: Yesterday at 05:01:19 PM »
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  • Yeah, I've never "condemned" anyone as a heretic JUST for believing in BoD, since it's clearly been tolerated and even at times favored by the Church, BoD meaning that one could be SAVED without the ACTUAL reception of the Sacrament of Baptism, i.e. by receiving Baptism in voto.  That's one of the points on which I disagree with the Dimond Brothers.  Now, I do believe that it's OBJECTIVELY heretical, but the Church hasn't defined otherwise.  I believe there are two dogmatic definitions which all but excluded a BoD in the sense of it being capable of bringing SALVATION, but it's still my interpretation of those.  What I mean by that, i.e. it being objectively heretical, is the equivalent of ... if I were to have held before Vatican II that papal infallibility is a dogma.  So, in once sense I would have been right, because dogmas were all revealed from the beginning, objectively speaking, but in another it hadn't been proposed with sufficient clarity by the Church's authority so that someone denying papal infallibility before Vatican I would be considered a heretic.

    I'm not going to refute the "proofs" adduced in detail, just to say that St. Ambrose says that the state of unbaptized martyrs is that of having been "washed but now crowned" (and then hopes that Valentinian might experience something like that by his piety and zeal) ... and elsewhere he says explicilty that even the best catechumens who die without Baptism cannot enter the Kingdom.  St. Augustine later retracted his opinion.  And that's really it.

    I wouldn't spend 5 minute arguing against someone (other than in a friendly or academic way) who held this particular definition of BoD.  Now, the next question is whether, given how it's defined, whether some Jew who rejects Christ can be saved by this BoD.  That's a secondary question, and many err gravely by advocating for an IMPLICIT BoD.  But, again ... I won't go there for now.

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Do you agree with this definition of BOD?
    « Reply #19 on: Yesterday at 05:17:50 PM »
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  • Yeah, I've never "condemned" anyone as a heretic JUST for believing in BoD, since it's clearly been tolerated and even at times favored by the Church, BoD meaning that one could be SAVED without the ACTUAL reception of the Sacrament of Baptism, i.e. by receiving Baptism in voto.  That's one of the points on which I disagree with the Dimond Brothers.  Now, I do believe that it's OBJECTIVELY heretical, but the Church hasn't defined otherwise.  I believe there are two dogmatic definitions which all but excluded a BoD in the sense of it being capable of bringing SALVATION, but it's still my interpretation of those.  What I mean by that, i.e. it being objectively heretical, is the equivalent of ... if I were to have held before Vatican II that papal infallibility is a dogma.  So, in once sense I would have been right, because dogmas were all revealed from the beginning, objectively speaking, but in another it hadn't been proposed with sufficient clarity by the Church's authority so that someone denying papal infallibility before Vatican I would be considered a heretic.

    I'm not going to refute the "proofs" adduced in detail, just to say that St. Ambrose says that the state of unbaptized martyrs is that of having been "washed but now crowned" (and then hopes that Valentinian might experience something like that by his piety and zeal) ... and elsewhere he says explicilty that even the best catechumens who die without Baptism cannot enter the Kingdom.  St. Augustine later retracted his opinion.  And that's really it.

    I wouldn't spend 5 minute arguing against someone (other than in a friendly or academic way) who held this particular definition of BoD. 
    All these things give us serious reason to see what you see.

    Nonetheless, those who hold this "safe" version could not be eschewed as heretics.

    I quoted St. Robert basically calling Cano a heretic (without naming him) yesterday.

    IMO, this the open wound left to fester that got infected with maggots and these maggots evolved into other maggots and that is how we got here...

    Now, the next question is whether, given how it's defined, whether some Jew who rejects Christ can be saved by this BoD.
    Not if I slap the taste-out-mouth first! :laugh1:

    and many err gravely by advocating for an IMPLICIT BoD.
    And that garbage IS nuclear - toxic - deadly.