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Poll

From Scannel's Manual of Catholic Theology #2 - Imprimatur Cardinal Manning 1898

Yes
4 (80%)
No
1 (20%)

Total Members Voted: 5

Author Topic: Do you agree with this definition of BOD?  (Read 287 times)

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Offline SkidRowCatholic

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Do you agree with this definition of BOD?
« on: Today at 06:57:10 AM »
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  • Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Do you agree with this definition of BOD?
    « Reply #1 on: Today at 07:14:07 AM »
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  • Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Do you agree with this definition of BOD?
    « Reply #2 on: Today at 07:15:26 AM »
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    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Do you agree with this definition of BOD?
    « Reply #3 on: Today at 07:15:54 AM »
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    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Do you agree with this definition of BOD?
    « Reply #4 on: Today at 07:18:22 AM »
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    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Do you agree with this definition of BOD?
    « Reply #5 on: Today at 07:18:58 AM »
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    Online Gray2023

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    Re: Do you agree with this definition of BOD?
    « Reply #6 on: Today at 01:15:41 PM »
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  • Please give the reference to what book this is from.

    I can't tell what you are trying to say.  The people you want answers from are not going to comment, because it seems like you are mocking them.

    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Do you agree with this definition of BOD?
    « Reply #7 on: Today at 02:25:34 PM »
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  • Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Do you agree with this definition of BOD?
    « Reply #8 on: Today at 03:07:16 PM »
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  • Let us have a scenario for those interested (unafraid of either BOD or "Feenyite" nuclear contamination).

    Titus and Paul are fellow miners.
    Titus is a baptized, practicing Catholic in good standing with the Church - he strives to learn his faith and live it well.
    Paul is a pagan - he worships one of his ancestor's petrified thumbs - in a makeshift shrine that he has set up at his home.
    One day at work, there is a sudden and unexpected cave-in at the mine.
    Titus and Paul are trapped deep within the mine and will soon die from lack of air, water, and food (which sadly - they have none of).
    Not a drop of water in the whole darn place - dry as a bone...
    To make matters worse...
    Titus is trapped under the rubble - his arms and body are pinned under hundreds of pounds of debris!
    He won't last long....
    Prior to this event, Titus and Paul had been discussing Catholicism for several months and Paul is actually quite interested. He has the basic catechism down.
    He was planning on telling Titus today that he wanted to meet with the priest to become an official catechumen and he is going to destroy his idolatrous thumb when he gets home.
    Now, here in this terrible situation seeing - Titus pinned down, dying, and the prospect of his own life to end soon thereafter...He wants to belong to Christ's Church.
    He expresses this to Titus.

    And you as Titus say;

    A) Sorry buddy, you are screwed. There is no way for me to baptize you. We have no water, nor do I have the use of my arms. You should have decided before now.

    B) God sees your desire to belong to His Church - it is He who has given it to thee. Let us be truly sorry for all our sins ( Titus assists Paul in an examination of conscience...) Let us make a Perfect Act of Contrition and follow with an Act of Spiritual Communion - if more time remains let us continue to invoke the assistance of the Blessed Virgin. Let us trust in the mercy of God and He shall not abandon us - lest it is for something we have done without being truly repentant He is perfectly just. We can take great peace in this truth - He is merciful as He is just. Of all your mighty works O Lord none is so great as Thy mercy.

    C) The Guardian Angel of Titus heaves the debris aside - a spring of fresh water miraculously gushes forth from the ground - Titus baptizes Paul - then they both drown together due to the water filling up the cavern of the mine shaft from the miraculous spring of water... Oh yeah, and we have no doubt about the validity of Paul's baptism - full immersion baby!

    Is A) a lie?
    Is B) a lie?
    Is C) the only doctrinally sound position?

    Maybe you have another answer in mind...



    Offline JoeZ

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    Re: Do you agree with this definition of BOD?
    « Reply #9 on: Today at 03:39:21 PM »
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    • If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.’ There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief.”
    St Augustine
    Pray the Holy Rosary.

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Do you agree with this definition of BOD?
    « Reply #10 on: Today at 04:05:52 PM »
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    • the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him
    St. Augustine is warning readers not to accept the idea that God’s elect can be lost by mere chance or events outside God’s will; he insists that God’s predestination is sovereign and effective, and that to teach otherwise elevates random occurrences above God’s power and leads to theological confusion.

    None of that is being asserted in the above scenario - you would either see that God brought Titus and Paul together for a reason and he had them trapped in the mine for a reason, or you don't. The scenario leaves nothing to random chance as if God wasn't All Powerful/Providential - but is to be taken as an simulation based on actual events/circuмstances that a Catholic might encounter - therefore it is a theological exercise.

    Perhaps we could say it like this;

    And you as Titus say;

    D) Paul, if you, or I are predestinated, God knows and He will supply us with whatever we need to be saved.


    But then we loop back around to B) being an acceptable answer.

    If it was good enough for Cardinal Henry Manning - it is good enough for me.

    Or, you could hold some variation of  C) if you want to stay as far away as possible for the nuclear "heresy" of BOD.

    Which of course can happen with no caveats as God is All Wise and foresees all that shall happen to those who shall be saved.

    There is nothing rash in discussing what is found in dozens of Catholic catechisms and theology manuals over the period of 100's of years.

    But if that isn't for you - thanks for popping in.




    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Do you agree with this definition of BOD?
    « Reply #11 on: Today at 04:07:06 PM »
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  • Let us have a scenario for those interested (unafraid of either BOD or "Feenyite" nuclear contamination).

    Titus and Paul are fellow miners.
    Titus is a baptized, practicing Catholic in good standing with the Church - he strives to learn his faith and live it well.
    Paul is a pagan - he worships one of his ancestor's petrified thumbs - in a makeshift shrine that he has set up at his home.
    One day at work, there is a sudden and unexpected cave-in at the mine.
    Titus and Paul are trapped deep within the mine and will soon die from lack of air, water, and food (which sadly - they have none of).
    Not a drop of water in the whole darn place - dry as a bone...
    To make matters worse...
    Titus is trapped under the rubble - his arms and body are pinned under hundreds of pounds of debris!
    He won't last long....
    Prior to this event, Titus and Paul had been discussing Catholicism for several months and Paul is actually quite interested. He has the basic catechism down.
    He was planning on telling Titus today that he wanted to meet with the priest to become an official catechumen and he is going to destroy his idolatrous thumb when he gets home.
    Now, here in this terrible situation seeing - Titus pinned down, dying, and the prospect of his own life to end soon thereafter...He wants to belong to Christ's Church.
    He expresses this to Titus.

    And you as Titus say;

    A) Sorry buddy, you are screwed. There is no way for me to baptize you. We have no water, nor do I have the use of my arms. You should have decided before now.

    B) God sees your desire to belong to His Church - it is He who has given it to thee. Let us be truly sorry for all our sins ( Titus assists Paul in an examination of conscience...) Let us make a Perfect Act of Contrition and follow with an Act of Spiritual Communion - if more time remains let us continue to invoke the assistance of the Blessed Virgin. Let us trust in the mercy of God and He shall not abandon us - lest it is for something we have done without being truly repentant He is perfectly just. We can take great peace in this truth - He is merciful as He is just. Of all your mighty works O Lord none is so great as Thy mercy.

    C) The Guardian Angel of Titus heaves the debris aside - a spring of fresh water miraculously gushes forth from the ground - Titus baptizes Paul - then they both drown together due to the water filling up the cavern of the mine shaft from the miraculous spring of water... Oh yeah, and we have no doubt about the validity of Paul's baptism - full immersion baby!

    Is A) a lie?
    Is B) a lie?
    Is C) the only doctrinally sound position?

    Maybe you have another answer in mind...

    D)  God sends St. Philip the Deacon to take care of the situation (Acts 8:26-40)

    I suggest you meditate on the Particular Providence of God.

    Therefore I say to you, be not solicitous for your life, what you shall eat, nor for your body, what you shall put on. Is not the life more than the meat: and the body more than the raiment? Behold the birds of the air, for they neither sow, nor do they reap, nor gather into barns: and your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are not you of much more value than they? And which of you by taking thought, can add to his stature by one cubit? And for raiment why are you solicitous? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they labour not, neither do they spin. But I say to you, that not even Solomon in all his glory was arrayed as one of these. And if the grass of the field, which is today, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, God doth so clothe: how much more you, O ye of little faith? Be not solicitous therefore, saying, What shall we eat: or what shall we drink, or wherewith shall we be clothed? For after all these things do the heathens seek. For your Father knoweth that you have need of all these things. Seek ye therefore first the kingdom of God, and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you. Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof.  (Matthew 6:25-34)

    Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father: But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: better are you than many sparrows.  (Matthew 10:29-31)

    Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you. For every one that asketh, receiveth: and he that seeketh, findeth: and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.  (Matthew 7:7-8)

    And Jesus beholding, said to them: With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible. (Matthew 19:26)

    I am the good shepherd; and I know mine, and mine know me. (John 10:14)

    He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned. (Mark 16:16)

    Jesus answered, and said to him: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born again? Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.  (John 3:3-5)
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Do you agree with this definition of BOD?
    « Reply #12 on: Today at 04:10:27 PM »
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  • D)  God sends St. Philip the Deacon to take care of the situation (Acts 8:26-40)

    I suggest you meditate on the Particular Providence of God.

    Therefore I say to you, be not solicitous for your life, what you shall eat, nor for your body, what you shall put on. Is not the life more than the meat: and the body more than the raiment? Behold the birds of the air, for they neither sow, nor do they reap, nor gather into barns: and your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are not you of much more value than they? And which of you by taking thought, can add to his stature by one cubit? And for raiment why are you solicitous? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they labour not, neither do they spin. But I say to you, that not even Solomon in all his glory was arrayed as one of these. And if the grass of the field, which is today, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, God doth so clothe: how much more you, O ye of little faith? Be not solicitous therefore, saying, What shall we eat: or what shall we drink, or wherewith shall we be clothed? For after all these things do the heathens seek. For your Father knoweth that you have need of all these things. Seek ye therefore first the kingdom of God, and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you. Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof.  (Matthew 6:25-34)

    Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father: But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: better are you than many sparrows.  (Matthew 10:29-31)

    Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you. For every one that asketh, receiveth: and he that seeketh, findeth: and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.  (Matthew 7:7-8)

    I am the good shepherd; and I know mine, and mine know me. (John 10:14)

    He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned. (Mark 16:16)

    Jesus answered, and said to him: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born again? Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.  (John 3:3-5)
    God will always provides for those who he sees shall be saved. 


    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Do you agree with this definition of BOD?
    « Reply #13 on: Today at 04:12:03 PM »
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  • God will always provides for those who he sees shall be saved.


    Precisely.  The same God who said "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."?
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Do you agree with this definition of BOD?
    « Reply #14 on: Today at 04:16:09 PM »
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  • Precisely.  The same God who said "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."?
    Yea shall have no argument from I...

    But neither shall Cardinal Manning... and the other holy doctors - there are versions of BOD that are heretical - but the above isn't one of them from what I can tell.

    Can I take your spiked interest to mean you disagree with the text of Sheeben as cited above?

    https://archive.org/details/manualofcatholic0000jose_p8x2/page/n3/mode/2up

    Here it is:

    "Secondly, the sacrament may be wanting in fact but not in desire, as when a person wishes to be baptized, but is stricken by death before he can recieve baptism, and such a one can without actual baptism be saved on account of the desire of baptism proceeding from faith working by love, by means of which God, Whose power is not restricted to visible sacraments, internally sanctifies him."

    Do you find ^ this ^  - egregious and damnable heresy? 
    Does it make you feel disgust, pity, shame and righteous indignation?