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Offline forlorn

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Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #60 on: March 16, 2019, 10:35:44 AM »
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  • Quote
    Perish the thought that a person predestined to eternal life could be allowed to end this life without the Sacrament of the Mediator."
    This quote completely refutes BOD.

    Offline JoeZ

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #61 on: March 17, 2019, 11:05:13 AM »
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  • Dear JoeZ, it's not my interpretation, friend, I can show you several approved commentaries that exegete the text in the same manner. Wether I meant you singly or you plural (as in any who hold the same) is irrelevant to the salient point. My argument is that the literal meaning of the defined dogma I cited excludes forgiveness of Original Sin and does not allow sanctifying grace in the unbaptized. No qualification, pious sounding story, or ill-used exegesis can unseat what the Church's Magesterium has defined.

    Fr. Haydock, Fr. Lapide etc will tell you that St. Magdalene, King David, St. Peter, Cornelius etc received forgiveness through Contrition. Forgiveness of actual sin? I'll defer to them and concede the point.

    Can you show me a source that confirms your opinion? Please see Haydock on Cornelius here:
    https://www.ecatholic2000.com/haydock/ntcomment105.shtml Thank you for the link. I read through this and it supports my postition. 

    Also, the booklet entitled "Perfect Contrition: The Golden Key to Paradise [including for all of us(!)]":
    https://www.ecatholic2000.com/cts/untitled-110.shtml As far as we know, the perfect act of contrition affects only those on their way to the confessional. To apply it to the unbaptised does not follow. 

    "III. IS IT DIFFICULT TO MAKE AN ACT OF PERFECT CONTRITION? No doubt, it is more difficult to make an act of Perfect Contrition than an Imperfect one, which suffices when we go to Confession. But still, there is no one who, if he sincerely wishes it, cannot, with the grace of God, make an act of Perfect Contrition. Sorrow is in the will, not in the senses or feelings. All that is needed is that we repent because we love God above everything else; that is all. True it is that Perfect Contrition has its degrees, but it is none the less perfect because it does not reach the intensity and sublimity of the sorrow of St. Peter, of St. Mary Magdalene, or of St. Aloysius. Such a degree is very desirable, but is by no means necessary. A lesser degree, but, provided it proceeds from the love of God, and not through fear of His punishments, is quite sufficient. And it is very consoling to remember that for the 4000 years before the coming of Christ the only means sinners had of obtaining pardon was this same Perfect Contrition. There was no Sacrament of Penance in those days. Even today for thousands-aye, for millions-of pagans, of non-Catholics, and of Catholics, too, who have no time to call a priest to their bedside, the only means of pardon and salvation is an act of Perfect Contrition."

    Many "traditionalists" (not speaking of you, dear Joe) have the wrong spirit today. It's no more about the salvation of souls, which is to be the supreme law even of the Church (Suprema Lex Salus Animarum, it is said in Canon Law) and the raison d'etre of man on this earth. To some so called traditionalists, its all about condemning others and closing the gates of heaven to them, while justifying oneself, and hoping to go to heaven like that. God has said through His Saints, "In the evening of life, we will all be judged by our love". Perfect Contrition united to the desire of the sacraments and the will to do all that God wills is not just a means to be applied once at the end of life a few minutes before Water Baptism. It is a means of forgiveness throughout life, from the first moment of reason till last breath. Everyone can obtain forgiveness and justification even every day through it, because God's Grace makes that possible to all.

    No, the just went to Abraham's bosom or limbo, like Lazarus, and the wicked went to hell, like Dives. if there was no difference in the state of all who descended, then either they would never have been able to be saved, or even the unjust would have been saved, which is wrong. St. Thomas explains: there is original sin as it affects the person and as it affects human nature; on the part of each individual person, it was necessary for it to be remitted by contrition and the desire to do God's Will. On the part of human nature, it was only remitted after Christ's Passion, as it were, by the shed blood of Christ, in anticipation of which Christ had already forgiven personal sins, to those who sincerely repented with contrition and sorrow for their sins. After His Passion, He opened Heaven to them, but not to all. We are in a semantic disagreement here. The Limbo of the Just is part of Hell. Its not the Lake of Fire part but it is beneath the Earth, as in down and not up.

    Is it possible He even baptized them? Judge for yourself. Here's the text in the Gospel of Nicodemus, "only three days were allowed to us who have risen from the dead to celebrate in Jerusalem the passover of the Lord, with our living relations, for an evidence of the resurrection of Christ the Lord: and we have been baptized in the holy river of Jordan, receiving each of us white robes. And after three days, when we had celebrated the passover of the Lord, all who rose again along with us were snatched up into the clouds, and taken across the Jordan, and were no longer seen by any one."http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/08072b.htm A theory I hold myself.

    This is why I think St. Augustine's opinion is quite possible. But St. Augustine is not saying what you are saying, which seems mistaken. If everybody died unjustified, everyone before Christ would have descended into hell of the damned and remained there.
    My comments are in red.
    Pray the Holy Rosary.


    Offline JoeZ

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #62 on: March 17, 2019, 11:10:29 AM »
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  • This quote completely refutes BOD.
    This.
    And ironically it is from the very Saint that almost all BOD theories today find their root. People don't care that he held BOD and then clearly repented of it and then wrote like the quote above.
    Pray the Holy Rosary.

    Offline MarylandTrad

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #63 on: March 17, 2019, 02:08:38 PM »
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  • I wondered if the SBC, or one/some of their groups who went under conciliar church rule, were going to fold. Brother Andre and whoever is with him on this, is on their own. By that I mean they should disavow Fr. Feeney as their founder and go create their own community somewhere else and call it something else - iow, be outwardly, upfront honest.

    The most obvious of all possible points *against* using Trent's Catechism to prove Trent taught a BOD, is that it says "grace and righteousness", which can only apply to the living, whereas "salvation" can only apply to the dead, this should be obvious to all who read that passage honestly from the catechism.

    Obviously one can only attain salvation after death. Until death, i.e. whilst we live, we all strive to be in the state of grace and righteousness, which are attributes of the living, and also especially the dying, but definitely not the dead.

    Know what I mean?


    Stubborn, Br. Andre and the SBC Richmond still confess one baptism for the remission of sins and teach that the sacrament is necessary for salvation by a necessity of means. Karam's article was put on the SBC's website long before the Center received approval from their local ordinary to have a resident priest. I don't see how Br. Andre referencing it is proof that the Center has folded. It is an article of great historical interest being that it was explicitly referenced in the 1949 Holy Office Letter condemning the Center. It shows that the Holy Office was condemning the Center not for rejecting "baptism of desire" as many falsely say, but for upholding Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus in the sense that the dogma has been infallibly defined.
    "The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a man who thinks other people can get along without It. The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a communicant who thinks he needs It but someone else does not. The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a communicant who offers others any charity ahead of this Charity of the Bread of Life." -Fr. Leonard Feeney, Bread of Life

    Offline MarylandTrad

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #64 on: March 17, 2019, 03:40:45 PM »
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  • To answer some of the questions/objections directed at me, (sorry about the formatting; haven't got it right yet and haven't got the time to figure it out now)


    How did all men from Adam to Christ for 5200 years obtain grace and justice? They received forgiveness through an Act of Contrition, or perfect love of God above all things, along with the explicit desire to do all the things He had commanded. There are countless examples of this in Sacred Scripture right from King David's tears of contrition, St. Mary Magdalene weeping at the feet of Christ (and the Lord says, her sins, which are many, are forgiven), St. Peter weeping after his denial etc even before Cornelius the Centurion received the Holy Spirit before his Baptism - a clear reference to Baptism by Desire of the Sacrament. Wherefore I say to thee: Many sins are forgiven her, because she hath loved much. But to whom less is forgiven, he loveth less. (Luk 7:47)


    Yes. Pelagius was a British monk who believed human nature without grace could perform meritorious actions, which is heretical. Baptism of Desire is not a natural act, but a supernatural grace which God gives for the forgiveness of sins. I advise everyone to read the article which is posted. St. Augustine compares justification to conception and perseverance to birth.


    Nobody said it was. Baptism of Desire may be a precursor to the Sacrament of Baptism, though, as it was for Cornelius.

    The Lord Jesus Himself said to St. Catherine of Sienna, "St. Catherine of Sienna (14th Century): Dialogue of St. Catherine: Baptisms: "I wished thee to see the secret of the Heart, showing it to thee open, so that you mightest see how much more I loved than I could show thee by finite pain. I poured from it Blood and Water, to show thee the baptism of water which is received in virtue of the Blood. I also showed the baptism of love in two ways, first in those who are baptized in their blood shed for Me which has virtue through My Blood, even if they have not been able to have Holy Baptism, and also those who are baptized in fire, not being able to have Holy Baptism, but desiring it with the affection of love. There is no baptism of desire without the Blood, because Blood is steeped in and kneaded with the fire of Divine charity, because through love was it shed. There is yet another way by which the soul receives the baptism of Blood, speaking, as it were, under a figure, and this way the Divine charity provided, knowing the infirmity and fragility of an, through which he offends, not that he is obliged, through his fragility and infirmity, to commit sin, unless he wish to do so; by falling, as he will, into the guild of mortal sin, by which he loses the grace which he drew from Holy Baptism in virtue of the Blood, it was necessary to leave a continual baptism of blood. This the Divine charity provided in the Sacrament of Holy Confession, the soul receiving the Baptism of blood, with contrition of heart, confessing, when able, to My ministers, who hold the keys of the Blood, sprinkling It, in absolution, upon the face of the soul. But if the soul is unable to confess, contrition of heart is sufficient for this baptism, the hand of My clemency giving you the fruit of this precious Blood... Thou seest then that these Baptisms, which you should all receive until the last moment, are continual, and though My works, that is the pains of the Cross were finite, the fruit of them which you receive in Baptism, through Me, are infinite..." From: http://baptismofdesire.com/

    In other writings attributed to St. Catherine of Sienna it is claimed that the Blessed Virgin appeared to the saint and told her that she was not immaculately conceived. St. Catherine's writings were obviously tampered with by over zealous Dominicans to make it appear as if heaven was endorsing all of St. Thomas' speculations. Pope Benedict XIV wrote about this very briefly in his "On Heroic Virtue."
    "The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a man who thinks other people can get along without It. The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a communicant who thinks he needs It but someone else does not. The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a communicant who offers others any charity ahead of this Charity of the Bread of Life." -Fr. Leonard Feeney, Bread of Life


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #65 on: March 17, 2019, 04:02:44 PM »
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  • Yes, Xavier, but the Council of Trent in its Session VI on justification says this:

    Does this not directly and clearly say that something has changed "since the promulgation of the Gospel" as to the manner of justification? It sure does. It says that now, in the age of the Catholic Church and the full revelation and promulgation by Her of the Gospel of Our Lord, justification "cannot be effected" without the sacrament, or the desire for it. The sacrament of baptism is now necessary for justification either in re or in votum. Your men "from Adam to Christ" were justified before the promulgation of the Gospel, not "since."

    God changed the game my friend, and now there is no salvation outside the Church, or at least without an explicit desire for the sacrament - without which justification "cannot be effected." I understand that the latter part - the necessity of an explicit desire, is my theological opinion. But it fits with the language of the Council, Session VI, Chapter IV, and I've never heard anyone deal with this language in Trent adequately so as to explain how the justification before Christ of the men "from Adam to Christ for 5200" years - via contrition and an act of love and desire to do God's will, an "implicit" desire for baptism - can avail now after the Gospel's promulgation when Trent says things have now changed.

    What changed since the promulgation of the Gospel such that now it "cannot be effected" without the sacrament of baptism or the desire "thereof"?

    Perhaps you can explain that where others haven't.
    As Ladislaus pointed out many moons ago, the bolded is false because if it were true, then the sacrament could be effected even while the one who receives the sacrament, does so while wholly rejecting it or *without* desiring it. That's just the simple truth if the translation cannot occur without the sacrament or the desire thereof, then the justification occurs whether one receives the sacrament while desiring to be baptized or desiring not to be baptized.

    As Trent's catechism says:

    "The faithful are also to be instructed in the necessary dispositions for Baptism. In the first place they must desire and intend to receive it; for as in Baptism we all die to sin and resolve to live a new life, it is fit that it be administered to those only who receive it of their own free will and accord; it is to be forced upon none. Hence we learn from holy tradition that it has been the invariable practice to administer Baptism to no individual without previously asking him if he be willing to receive it. This disposition even infants are presumed to have, since the will of the Church, which promises for them, cannot be mistaken."

    So my question is this: Can this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, be effected, with the laver of regeneration, but not the desire thereof? 

    If you answer, "no", then you are in agreement with what is actually taught in both the Council of Trent, and Trent's catechism.


    "And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

    In this instance, "or" means "and".
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #66 on: March 17, 2019, 04:04:30 PM »
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  • Stubborn, Br. Andre and the SBC Richmond still confess one baptism for the remission of sins and teach that the sacrament is necessary for salvation by a necessity of means. Karam's article was put on the SBC's website long before the Center received approval from their local ordinary to have a resident priest. I don't see how Br. Andre referencing it is proof that the Center has folded. It is an article of great historical interest being that it was explicitly referenced in the 1949 Holy Office Letter condemning the Center. It shows that the Holy Office was condemning the Center not for rejecting "baptism of desire" as many falsely say, but for upholding Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus in the sense that the dogma has been infallibly defined.
    Thanks MarylandTrad.
    I wrongfully read it that SBC had caved.
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Offline XavierSem

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #67 on: March 18, 2019, 01:35:26 AM »
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  • Quote from: JoeZ
    https://www.ecatholic2000.com/haydock/ntcomment105.shtml Thank you for the link. I read through this and it supports my postition.

    JoeZ, this is Fr. Haydock's exegesis of verse 47, "Such may be the grace of God occasionally towards men, and such their great charity and contrition, that they may have remission, justification, and sanctification, before the external sacraments of baptism, confirmation, and penance be received; as we see in this example: where, at Peter's preaching, they all received the Holy Ghost before any sacrament. But here we also learn one necessary lesson, that such, notwithstanding, must needs receive the sacraments appointed by Christ, which whosoever contemneth, can never be justified. S. Aug. sup. Levit. q. 84. T. 4." Does Fr. H believe no one who has charity or contrition and the desire of the Sacraments can receive justification?

    Quote
    Also, the booklet entitled "Perfect Contrition: The Golden Key to Paradise [including for all of us(!)]":
    Quote
    https://www.ecatholic2000.com/cts/untitled-110.shtml As far as we know, the perfect act of contrition affects only those on their way to the confessional. To apply it to the unbaptised does not follow.
    Fr. Lehmkuhl disagrees and that book explains it fairly well. But if you still disagree, how do you explain what Pope St. Pius X said "an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire." That's fairly straightforward again, and as others have mentioned, the Baltimore Catechism taught the same; Pope Leo XIII approved it.

    There's really no doubt about Baptism of Desire and to focus on it confuses the issue for many; Fr. Feeney's final position appears to be, "there is no one about to die in the state of grace to whom God cannot provide Baptism, and indeed Baptism of Water". That also appears to be St. Augustine's final position on the issue. At any rate, this is explicitly what St. Benedict's Centre believes today. The Magisterium has declared it to be permissible to believe that. SBC explains they don't deny anyone dying in grace will be saved.

    It may be better to ask, Will everyone who receives Justification through Baptism of Desire, also receive the Sacrament of Baptism, as was the case with Cornelius above: St. Thomas says on Cornelius, "Reply to Objection 2. As stated above (Article 1, Reply to Objection 2; III:68:2) man receives the forgiveness of sins before Baptism in so far as he has Baptism of desire, explicitly or implicitly; and yet when he actually receives Baptism, he receives a fuller remission, as to the remission of the entire punishment. So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but afterwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fulness of grace and virtues. Hence in Psalm 22:2, "He hath brought me up on the water of refreshment," a gloss says: "He has brought us up by an increase of virtue and good deeds in Baptism." (Tertia Pars, Q.69,A.5)

    There is also St. Ambrose: http://lonelypilgrim.com/2013/09/23/st-ambrose-on-the-baptism-of-desire/ "Has he not, then, the grace which he desired; has he not the grace which he requested? And because he asked, he received, and therefore it is said: ‘By whatsoever death the just man shall be overtaken, his soul shall be at rest’ (Wisdom 4:7) Grant, therefore, O holy Father, to Thy servant the gift which Moses received, because he saw in spirit; the gift which David merited, because he knew from revelation. Grant, I pray, to Thy servant Valentinian the gift which he longed for, the gift which he requested while in health, vigor, and security. If, stricken with sickness, he had deferred it, he would not be entirely without Thy mercy who has been cheated by the swiftness of time, not by his own wish. Grant, therefore, to Thy servant the gift of Thy grace which he never rejected … He who had Thy Spirit, how has he not received Thy grace? ... (56) Offer the holy mysteries with your hands, with devoted love let us ask for his repose. Offer the heavenly sacraments, let us accompany the soul of our son with our oblations. ‘Lift up with me, O people, your hands to the holy place’ (Psalm 133(134):2), so that at least through this service we may repay him for his deserts. Not with flowers shall I sprinkle his grave, but I shall bedew his spirit with the odor of Christ. Let others scatter lilies in basketfuls. Christ is our lily, and with this lily I shall bless his remains, with this I shall recommend for his favor."

    These are the two authorities Pope Innocent III relied on, "Apostolicam: Read, brother, in the eighth book of Augustine’s City of God where among other things it is written, “Baptism is ministered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion but death excludes.” Read again the book also of the blessed Ambrose concerning the death of Valentinian where he says the same thing. Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers, and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the priest mentioned"

    Fr. Feeney was reconciled merely upon professing the Athanasian Creed. Pope St. Pius X also taught the necessity of the Catholic Faith. God will bring pagans who sincerely seek the Truth to Christ in ways known to Him. Fr. Mueller taught this in an approved Catechism also. Those who see this do not need to begin by arguing almost every Catechism the Church has ever approved.

    It cannot be doubted that God will Provide for all His Elect. If you want to speculate there was an invisible water Baptism for Valentian etc, that is a permissible opinion. But Baptism of Desire is not as such debatable because the Church has pronounced on it. God bless.
    "And as to yourself, tell them that because you are imperfect, weak and infirm, you stand in need of Communion." (Introduction to the Devout Life, St. Francis)


    Offline Chrysostom

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #68 on: March 18, 2019, 02:41:49 AM »
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  • JoeZ, this is Fr. Haydock's exegesis of verse 47, "Such may be the grace of God occasionally towards men, and such their great charity and contrition, that they may have remission, justification, and sanctification, before the external sacraments of baptism, confirmation, and penance be received; as we see in this example: where, at Peter's preaching, they all received the Holy Ghost before any sacrament. But here we also learn one necessary lesson, that such, notwithstanding, must needs receive the sacraments appointed by Christ, which whosoever contemneth, can never be justified. S. Aug. sup. Levit. q. 84. T. 4." Does Fr. H believe no one who has charity or contrition and the desire of the Sacraments can receive justification?
    Fr. Lehmkuhl disagrees and that book explains it fairly well. But if you still disagree, how do you explain what Pope St. Pius X said "an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire." That's fairly straightforward again, and as others have mentioned, the Baltimore Catechism taught the same; Pope Leo XIII approved it.

    There's really no doubt about Baptism of Desire and to focus on it confuses the issue for many; Fr. Feeney's final position appears to be, "there is no one about to die in the state of grace to whom God cannot provide Baptism, and indeed Baptism of Water". That also appears to be St. Augustine's final position on the issue. At any rate, this is explicitly what St. Benedict's Centre believes today. The Magisterium has declared it to be permissible to believe that. SBC explains they don't deny anyone dying in grace will be saved.

    It may be better to ask, Will everyone who receives Justification through Baptism of Desire, also receive the Sacrament of Baptism, as was the case with Cornelius above: St. Thomas says on Cornelius, "Reply to Objection 2. As stated above (Article 1, Reply to Objection 2; III:68:2) man receives the forgiveness of sins before Baptism in so far as he has Baptism of desire, explicitly or implicitly; and yet when he actually receives Baptism, he receives a fuller remission, as to the remission of the entire punishment. So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but afterwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fulness of grace and virtues. Hence in Psalm 22:2, "He hath brought me up on the water of refreshment," a gloss says: "He has brought us up by an increase of virtue and good deeds in Baptism." (Tertia Pars, Q.69,A.5)

    There is also St. Ambrose: http://lonelypilgrim.com/2013/09/23/st-ambrose-on-the-baptism-of-desire/ "Has he not, then, the grace which he desired; has he not the grace which he requested? And because he asked, he received, and therefore it is said: ‘By whatsoever death the just man shall be overtaken, his soul shall be at rest’ (Wisdom 4:7) Grant, therefore, O holy Father, to Thy servant the gift which Moses received, because he saw in spirit; the gift which David merited, because he knew from revelation. Grant, I pray, to Thy servant Valentinian the gift which he longed for, the gift which he requested while in health, vigor, and security. If, stricken with sickness, he had deferred it, he would not be entirely without Thy mercy who has been cheated by the swiftness of time, not by his own wish. Grant, therefore, to Thy servant the gift of Thy grace which he never rejected … He who had Thy Spirit, how has he not received Thy grace? ... (56) Offer the holy mysteries with your hands, with devoted love let us ask for his repose. Offer the heavenly sacraments, let us accompany the soul of our son with our oblations. ‘Lift up with me, O people, your hands to the holy place’ (Psalm 133(134):2), so that at least through this service we may repay him for his deserts. Not with flowers shall I sprinkle his grave, but I shall bedew his spirit with the odor of Christ. Let others scatter lilies in basketfuls. Christ is our lily, and with this lily I shall bless his remains, with this I shall recommend for his favor."

    These are the two authorities Pope Innocent III relied on, "Apostolicam: Read, brother, in the eighth book of Augustine’s City of God where among other things it is written, “Baptism is ministered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion but death excludes.” Read again the book also of the blessed Ambrose concerning the death of Valentinian where he says the same thing. Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers, and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the priest mentioned"

    Fr. Feeney was reconciled merely upon professing the Athanasian Creed. Pope St. Pius X also taught the necessity of the Catholic Faith. God will bring pagans who sincerely seek the Truth to Christ in ways known to Him. Fr. Mueller taught this in an approved Catechism also. Those who see this do not need to begin by arguing almost every Catechism the Church has ever approved.

    It cannot be doubted that God will Provide for all His Elect. If you want to speculate there was an invisible water Baptism for Valentian etc, that is a permissible opinion. But Baptism of Desire is not as such debatable because the Church has pronounced on it. God bless.
    There is only one baptism and this is the sacrament of water and the holy ghost which all men must receive in order to go to heaven. If you want to call the extraordinary reception of this sacrament baptism of desire or blood (when Angels often provide the form) then OK, but if you dilineate these terms as something different to the water baptism then this is inexcusable heresy.
    No amount of legalism will get around the fact that except a man be born again of water and the holy ghost he shall not enter the kingdom of heaven

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #69 on: March 18, 2019, 04:11:48 PM »
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  • Hi DecemRationis. Quick reply. Yes, I agree as far as I understood. After the promulgation of the Gospel, things changed because we now need explicit Catholic Faith in at least the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation of the Word/Son of God for salvation, as the Creed of St. Athanasius teaches us, for salvation; it is possible God may also give Baptism itself to all He has justified by BOD. Have to run now.

    Even the ancient OT patriarchs were all waiting for redemption only through Christ, and had to believe in Him to go to Heaven.

    God bless. Will get back later.

    Hi, Xavier. I agree that explicit Catholic faith is required now. 

    However, the Council specifically indicates a change in the manner of justification since the promulgation of the Gospel and doesn't say, "now you must have the Catholic faith," but then says now you must have "the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof." 

    You could argue that there is an implicit desire for baptism in one having a Catholic faith in the Trinity and Incarnation (Christ), and that therefore the "desire thereof" is referencing someone with the Catholic faith in Christ but not yet baptized (even without knowledge of baptism in the inchoate state of his faith). Interesting. 

    But the Catechism of Trent elaborates on the referenced "desire thereof" in my view, and it's a repentant catechumen's desire for baptism which he's preparing for. 

    DR
    The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium . . . Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #70 on: March 18, 2019, 05:12:32 PM »
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  • The doctrines defined at Trent, which are necessary for salvation, were gradually watered down decade after decade after decade, from the 1500s til the 1900s, when V2 happened.  Even the modernists proclaim that V2 was "anti-Trent".  It's no secret that the devil and his Christ-hating minions hate the doctrine of exclusive salvation because it is contrary to their desired-for one-world religion, with its tower-of-babel/freemasonic ideals of "liberty", "diversity" and "inclusivity"...(i.e. the freemasonic ideals of liberty, equality and fraternity).  These 3 principles are contrary to the Catholic principle's of "Divine Law, Church Authority and Primacy of Truth".

    BOD is a watering down of EENS.  The only way that it's possible for BOD to provide justification (i.e. state of grace) is how Trent inferred:  a Catechumen dies on his way to receive baptism.  You can quote St Thomas and St Alphonsus all you want but Trent is so much larger in importance than them, that their opinions are irrelevant.


     

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