Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?  (Read 18997 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #55 on: March 16, 2019, 04:33:39 AM »
Stubborn,

For agreeing with Karam? Fr. Feeney said he agreed with Karam.

DR
No, for the article saying: "...baptism of the Holy Spirit, without the actual reception of Baptism of water, can be sufficient for salvation if the following five conditions are fulfilled . . ."

I am sure that Fr. Feeney never agreed with this because this would have been his "pinch of incense". 

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #56 on: March 16, 2019, 04:50:20 AM »
What about the women to whom Jesus said, "your faith hath saved you." She was quite alive.
Almost the same difference. Yes, Trent's catechism is also talking about a person still alive, the difference is that Christ's words let us know that for the women, there can be no doubt that they went away in the state of grace and righteousness.

The Catechism otoh, stops short of any such certainty, rather it says that by the intention to receive, we only put ourselves in the way ("avail") of grace and righteousness.

So by Christ's words we are certain they were in grace and righteousness, whereas by Trent's teaching, the only thing for certain, is that the intention puts us in a position to receive grace and righteousness, not salvation. Which is to say that the intention does not guarantee grace and righteousness at all, let alone salvation. Yet regardless of all this, the BODers insist on saying this passage from the catechism proves the Church teaches a BOD.  

 

 




Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #57 on: March 16, 2019, 08:04:53 AM »
Dear JoeZ, it's not my interpretation, friend, I can show you several approved commentaries that exegete the text in the same manner.

Fr. Haydock, Fr. Lapide etc will tell you that St. Magdalene, King David, St. Peter, Cornelius etc received forgiveness through Contrition.

Can you show me a source that confirms your opinion? Please see Haydock on Cornelius here:
https://www.ecatholic2000.com/haydock/ntcomment105.shtml

Also, the booklet entitled "Perfect Contrition: The Golden Key to Paradise [including for all of us(!)]":
https://www.ecatholic2000.com/cts/untitled-110.shtml

"III. IS IT DIFFICULT TO MAKE AN ACT OF PERFECT CONTRITION? No doubt, it is more difficult to make an act of Perfect Contrition than an Imperfect one, which suffices when we go to Confession. But still, there is no one who, if he sincerely wishes it, cannot, with the grace of God, make an act of Perfect Contrition. Sorrow is in the will, not in the senses or feelings. All that is needed is that we repent because we love God above everything else; that is all. True it is that Perfect Contrition has its degrees, but it is none the less perfect because it does not reach the intensity and sublimity of the sorrow of St. Peter, of St. Mary Magdalene, or of St. Aloysius. Such a degree is very desirable, but is by no means necessary. A lesser degree, but, provided it proceeds from the love of God, and not through fear of His punishments, is quite sufficient. And it is very consoling to remember that for the 4000 years before the coming of Christ the only means sinners had of obtaining pardon was this same Perfect Contrition. There was no Sacrament of Penance in those days. Even today for thousands-aye, for millions-of pagans, of non-Catholics, and of Catholics, too, who have no time to call a priest to their bedside, the only means of pardon and salvation is an act of Perfect Contrition."

Many "traditionalists" (not speaking of you, dear Joe) have the wrong spirit today. It's no more about the salvation of souls, which is to be the supreme law even of the Church (Suprema Lex Salus Animarum, it is said in Canon Law) and the raison d'etre of man on this earth. To some so called traditionalists, its all about condemning others and closing the gates of heaven to them, while justifying oneself, and hoping to go to heaven like that. God has said through His Saints, "In the evening of life, we will all be judged by our love". Perfect Contrition united to the desire of the sacraments and the will to do all that God wills is not just a means to be applied once at the end of life a few minutes before Water Baptism. It is a means of forgiveness throughout life, from the first moment of reason till last breath. Everyone can obtain forgiveness and justification even every day through it, because God's Grace makes that possible to all.

Quote
They all went to Hell and waited for Jesus to go there and grant them Justification and then they still waited there to follow Him to heaven, yes even the Good Thief.

No, the just went to Abraham's bosom or limbo, like Lazarus, and the wicked went to hell, like Dives. if there was no difference in the state of all who descended, then either they would never have been able to be saved, or even the unjust would have been saved, which is wrong. St. Thomas explains: there is original sin as it affects the person and as it affects human nature; on the part of each individual person, it was necessary for it to be remitted by contrition and the desire to do God's Will. On the part of human nature, it was only remitted after Christ's Passion, as it were, by the shed blood of Christ, in anticipation of which Christ had already forgiven personal sins, to those who sincerely repented with contrition and sorrow for their sins. After His Passion, He opened Heaven to them, but not to all.

Is it possible He even baptized them? Judge for yourself. Here's the text in the Gospel of Nicodemus, "only three days were allowed to us who have risen from the dead to celebrate in Jerusalem the passover of the Lord, with our living relations, for an evidence of the resurrection of Christ the Lord: and we have been baptized in the holy river of Jordan, receiving each of us white robes. And after three days, when we had celebrated the passover of the Lord, all who rose again along with us were snatched up into the clouds, and taken across the Jordan, and were no longer seen by any one."http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/08072b.htm

This is why I think St. Augustine's opinion is quite possible. But St. Augustine is not saying what you are saying, which seems mistaken. If everybody died unjustified, everyone before Christ would have descended into hell of the damned and remained there.

Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #58 on: March 16, 2019, 08:25:44 AM »
To answer some of the questions/objections directed at me, (sorry about the formatting; haven't got it right yet and haven't got the time to figure it out now)


How did all men from Adam to Christ for 5200 years obtain grace and justice? They received forgiveness through an Act of Contrition, or perfect love of God above all things, along with the explicit desire to do all the things He had commanded. There are countless examples of this in Sacred Scripture right from King David's tears of contrition, St. Mary Magdalene weeping at the feet of Christ (and the Lord says, her sins, which are many, are forgiven), St. Peter weeping after his denial etc even before Cornelius the Centurion received the Holy Spirit before his Baptism - a clear reference to Baptism by Desire of the Sacrament. Wherefore I say to thee: Many sins are forgiven her, because she hath loved much. But to whom less is forgiven, he loveth less. (Luk 7:47)


. . .

Yes, Xavier, but the Council of Trent in its Session VI on justification says this:

Quote
CHAPTER IV.

A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.

By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And
this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

Does this not directly and clearly say that something has changed "since the promulgation of the Gospel" as to the manner of justification? It sure does. It says that now, in the age of the Catholic Church and the full revelation and promulgation by Her of the Gospel of Our Lord, justification "cannot be effected" without the sacrament, or the desire for it. The sacrament of baptism is now necessary for justification either in re or in votum. Your men "from Adam to Christ" were justified before the promulgation of the Gospel, not "since."

God changed the game my friend, and now there is no salvation outside the Church, or at least without an explicit desire for the sacrament - without which justification "cannot be effected." I understand that the latter part - the necessity of an explicit desire, is my theological opinion. But it fits with the language of the Council, Session VI, Chapter IV, and I've never heard anyone deal with this language in Trent adequately so as to explain how the justification before Christ of the men "from Adam to Christ for 5200" years - via contrition and an act of love and desire to do God's will, an "implicit" desire for baptism - can avail now after the Gospel's promulgation when Trent says things have now changed.

What changed since the promulgation of the Gospel such that now it "cannot be effected" without the sacrament of baptism or the desire "thereof"?

Perhaps you can explain that where others haven't.

Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #59 on: March 16, 2019, 08:29:52 AM »
Hi DecemRationis. Quick reply. Yes, I agree as far as I understood. After the promulgation of the Gospel, things changed because we now need explicit Catholic Faith in at least the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation of the Word/Son of God for salvation, as the Creed of St. Athanasius teaches us, for salvation; it is possible God may also give Baptism itself to all He has justified by BOD. Have to run now. 

Even the ancient OT patriarchs were all waiting for redemption only through Christ, and had to believe in Him to go to Heaven.

God bless. Will get back later.