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Author Topic: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?  (Read 16784 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2019, 03:34:41 PM »
It says "unforeseen accident", not "unforeseen accidental death" or "accidental death".

It says "grace and righteousness", not "salvation" - which is why SBC correctly agrees with what it teaches. Again, when read as it is written, a BOD is never even hinted in Trent's catechism.  

Note that "grace and righteousness" are strictly for the living.

Great point.  Also, in Latin, the word "accident" does not have the same connotation that it does in English (severe injury putting one on the brink of death).  It just means some circuмstance happens to come up.  Recall St. Thomas using the term "substance" vs. "accidents" (something that happens to be there).

So then Trent's passage will mean something like -- "an adult's resolve to receive Baptism would overcome any obstacle that might get in the way of their receiving the Sacrament."

Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2019, 03:41:59 PM »
Great point.  Also, in Latin, the word "accident" does not have the same connotation that it does in English (severe injury putting one on the brink of death).  It just means some circuмstance happens to come up.  Recall St. Thomas using the term "substance" vs. "accidents" (something that happens to be there).

So then Trent's passage will mean something like -- "an adult's resolve to receive Baptism would overcome any obstacle that might get in the way of their receiving the Sacrament."
Ladislaus, could you provide the Latin word that's used there?  That would be very useful in future discussions.


Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2019, 04:26:13 PM »
It says "unforeseen accident", not "unforeseen accidental death" or "accidental death".

It says "grace and righteousness", not "salvation" - which is why SBC correctly agrees with what it teaches. Again, when read as it is written, a BOD is never even hinted in Trent's catechism.  

Note that "grace and righteousness" are strictly for the living.
Stubborn,

Brother Andre Marie had an episode on BOD on his Reconquest Radio show, Episode 109. He cites several good articles in his discussion, including Raymond Karem's original Reply to a Liberal Part III, also posted on catholicisim.org - https://veritasradionetwork.com/reconquest-episode-109-catholic-considerations-on-baptism-of-desire/

You know the history of this and the importance of Karam's article in From the Housetops. In the article Karam says this:

Quote
"In answer to our third question, therefore, we shall say that, according to the majority of the Fathers and Doctors, baptism of the Holy Spirit, without the actual reception of Baptism of water, can be sufficient for salvation if the following five conditions are fulfilled . . ."

https://catholicism.org/rptal-part3.html#3.

Are you saying Brother Andre, or more broadly the SBC, disagrees with that?

I say they do not : de jure it could [Karam, "can be sufficient"] SAVE, but de facto it doesn't happen.

DR

Offline JoeZ

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Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2019, 04:27:30 PM »
Joe,

Are you sure Father Wathen is talking of the Catechism of Trent and not the Baltimore Catechism? If so, what authority does he give for that other than the assertion?

There's a video on youtube where Father Jenkins talks about seeing an original edition of the Catechism of Trent in Latin which contained the famous passage about BOD availing to justification in case of an unforeseen accident preventing baptism. At least Father Jenkins give as authority his own eyes.


DR
I may need to correct/retract this but off the top of my head I can't remember. Please give me some time to read it again.
Thank you.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2019, 04:33:01 PM »
St. Fulgentius teaches, like Trent, that both Baptism and the desire (in his words, "confession") are required for salvation.


Quote
If anyone is not baptized, not only in ignorance, but even knowingly, he can in no way be saved. For his path to salvation was through the confession, and salvation itself was in baptism. At his age, not only was confession without baptism of no availBaptism itself would be of no avail for salvation if he neither believed nor confessed.


Except Trent doesn't have a "ne" or "neque" before "avail."