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Author Topic: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?  (Read 4061 times)

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Offline Nishant Xavier

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Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« on: March 14, 2019, 02:31:41 AM »
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    • St. Augustine both taught BOD and also said, "Perish the thought that a person predestined to eternal life could be allowed to end this life without the Sacrament of the Mediator."..Saint Augustine taught, as is clear from this article’s epigram, that the providence of God would see to it that a justified catechumen would be baptized before death. God alone, in any event, knows which of those, with a votum for baptism and perfect contrition, He has justified. The Church can only assume, as the arm of Christ, the Principal Agent in baptism, that all are in need of receiving the sacramentin order to not only have all sin forgiven and abolished, but to be a member of the Church, the Body of Christ. Anticipating the rejoinder that no one is lost who dies in the state of grace, let me just affirm that I agree. Not only that I agree, but that I submit to this truth as I would a dogma of Faith. The Church, however, allows the faithful the freedom to believe that the providence of God will see to it that every person dying in the state of grace will also be baptized. This preserves the literal sense of Christ’s teaching in John 3:5: “Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” and His apostolic mandate to preach and baptize all nations in Mark 16: 15-16." https://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html

    If one rejects or criticizes the doctrines of Baptism of Desire and Blood, one has to first of all absurdly try to argue against Catechisms approved and authorized by the most traditional Popes, like Pope St. Pius V in the Roman Catechism of Trent, and Pope St. Pius X - this in fact the Dimonds and their disciples attempt, which is a manifest absurdity and almost a logical consequence of their heretical position. Richard Ibranyi taking their own heretical methodology further than them has, at last count, rejected something like all the Popes for the last millenium, showing how schismatic and heretical the sedevacantist Dimondist methodology really is. If one proceeds like that, one loses Faith and Charity by that means, the two Bonds that Unite us in the Mystical Body of Christ, and falls into open schism and even heresy.

    But St. Augustine's view is excellent, very probably true, and eminently defensible: if we recall Fr. Feeney near the end of his life stated, "there is no one about to die in the state of grace to whom God cannot provide Baptism, and indeed Baptism of Water", it is clear these are not the words of a man who denies Church teaching on Baptism of Desire, but believes God will supply Baptism of Water to those who have been praying and working to receive the graces both of justification and perseverance from Him. Do you agree with him? I do.
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    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #1 on: March 14, 2019, 05:26:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: XavierSem on March 14, 2019, 02:31:41 AM
    But St. Augustine's view is excellent, very probably true, and eminently defensible: if we recall Fr. Feeney near the end of his life stated, "there is no one about to die in the state of grace to whom God cannot provide Baptism, and indeed Baptism of Water", it is clear these are not the words of a man who denies Church teaching on Baptism of Desire, but believes God will supply Baptism of Water to those who have been praying and working to receive the graces both of justification and perseverance from Him. Do you agree with him? I do.
    Yes, I agree.

    I believe a BOD, which is a man made doctrine that teaches a good intention by an infidel, brought on by an unforeseen accident, is salvific, is a terrible insult to the Providence of an all knowing and all mighty God. 
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    Offline JoeZ

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #2 on: March 14, 2019, 06:39:50 PM »
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    • If I may,
    I honestly don't know the Center's position well enough to approve and you didn't provide enough of it to even comment on, but I do object to this thought of yours.
    Quote from: XavierSem on March 14, 2019, 02:31:41 AM
     The Church, however, allows the faithful the freedom to believe that the providence of God will see to it that every person dying in the state of grace will also be baptized. 
    How does one arrive at the state of grace before baptism? Through a sacrament?

    The Council of Trent infallibly teaches that the only remedy for Original Sin is “the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath reconciled us to God in his own blood, made us unto justice, sanctification, and redemption” and that “the merit of Jesus Christ is applied…by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the church.” 

    What form of the Church is used in BOD?   
    Who is the minister?
    Do you know what Palagianism is?
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    Offline moneil

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #3 on: March 14, 2019, 10:07:53 PM »
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    • I was born on June 28, 1951 at Seattle’s Providence Hospital, founded by Mother Joseph of the Sisters of Providence.  The original edifice, designed by her, was built in 1882 but replaced after 1911.  I was baptized at Seattle’s St. Joseph’s parish on July 29, 1951 by Father Xavier Ryan, SJ.  In 1955 my family moved from Seattle to establish a family farm from virgin land in Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s Columbia Basin Project … we still have the farm but the land is leased out; My 97 year old mother still lives here in her house and for the past two years I’ve kept bachelor quarters in the basement to be nearby and help care for her.  I received my First Confession and First Holy Communion in May of 1959 at St. Patrick’s in Pasco, WA from Father William Schmidt.  I was confirmed by Bishop Bernard Topel of the Diocese of Spokane (WA) on May 4, 1964 at St. Patrick’s.

    During all of this my catechesis and formation in the True Faith was from the Baltimore Catechism, as was true for virtually all U.S. Catholics from 1885 until the post VII tumult of the late 1960’s.  My understanding is that it is based on St. Robert Bellarmine’s Small Catechism of 1614.  The Baltimore Catechism does now and has always carried an Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat from the Church’s magisterial authority.  It clearly teaches Baptism of Water, Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire (not to mention the three elements required for a Mortal Sin, a term all too often tossed around very loosely).

    I’ll stick with the Baltimore Catechism.
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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #4 on: March 15, 2019, 05:15:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: moneil on March 14, 2019, 10:07:53 PM
    During all of this my catechesis and formation in the True Faith was from the Baltimore Catechism, as was true for virtually all U.S. Catholics from 1885 until the post VII tumult of the late 1960’s.  My understanding is that it is based on St. Robert Bellarmine’s Small Catechism of 1614.  The Baltimore Catechism does now and has always carried an Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat from the Church’s magisterial authority.  It clearly teaches Baptism of Water, Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire (not to mention the three elements required for a Mortal Sin, a term all too often tossed around very loosely).

    I’ll stick with the Baltimore Catechism.

    The Baltimore Catechism is indeed where nearly everyone learned their faith, that is, since the time of it's publication up till V2. However, prior to then, people learned the truths of the faith without it. Just something to always keep in mind.

    St. Paul in Scripture is quite explicit when he taught quite specifically that there is only one baptism, not three, which is what people learned up until the Baltimore Catechism. Just something else to always keep in mind.

    Our faith teaches us that no man can save himself, that every human creature that has ever lived and ever will live, is wholly dependent upon God (and His Holy Church) to provide for each of us individually the means of salvation, without which no man can be saved. A BOD, whatever it is, can only work without Divine Providence, God's Providence as got to be altogether void or missing from it's formula in order for the possibility of a BOD to work. 

    The protestants believe they obtain forgiveness by confessing their sins directly to God, which is contrary to what the Church teaches. A BOD is protestant in nature, is contrary to Scripture, contrary to the constant teaching of the Church and it wholly rejects God's Providence, Who, since the promulgation of the Gospel, has provided the time, the minister and the water for everyone who ever has been and ever will be baptized.

    Before the Baltimore Catechism, St. Paul said: "One Lord, one faith, one baptism."

    How many baptisms are there?

     


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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #5 on: March 15, 2019, 08:11:19 AM »
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    • The Baltimore Catechism was produced by American Bishops.  It's hardly infallible.
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    Offline JoeZ

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #6 on: March 15, 2019, 08:18:28 AM »
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    •  
    1.    Catechisms are not protected by infallibility. Introduction XXXVI from the Fifteenth Printing of The Catechism of the Council of Trent states: “Official docuмents have occasionally been issued by Popes to explain certain points of Catholic teaching to individuals, or to local Christian communities; whereas the Roman Catechism comprises practically the whole body of Christian doctrine, and is addressed to the whole Church. Its teaching is not infallible; but it holds a place between approved catechisms and what is de fide.”

Since catechisms are not infallible, there is a possibility that erroneous theories such as baptism of desire and baptism of blood could make their way into them. Moreover, the original edition of The Catechism of the Council of Trent did not contain baptism of blood or baptism of desire. This is attested to by Fr. Wathen in his work Who Shall Ascend (p.225), where he states, “In the original edition of The Catechism, there is no mention of either term. In fact, one will not find the insertion of these terms [baptisms of desire and blood] until the late nineteenth century.” Modernists (Modernism is the synthesis of all error) have recently inserted these ideas into the catechisms and other Catholic publications like the Denzinger with an eye to the end goal of attacking the dogma of no salvation outside the Catholic Church. In their ancient form, BOD and BOB concerned only the catechumen and as such they are a theological speculation that is in error only of only a minor theological note, but in their modern form, that of the “anonymous Christian” variety by Karl Rahner, the idea of implicit desire was introduced and taken to heretical extremes, ie baptism doesn’t even have to be desired to place one in the Church. The 1949 Letter of the Holy Office, which may well actually be faked by +Cushing, has been elevated to dogma, placed in the Denzinger, and is even used in Vatican 2 as support for its worst heresy. If one holds the idea of implicit BOD then one cannot argue against Vatican 2’s new ecclesiology, one must respect as deeply profound John Paul 2’s subsistence theology, and one cannot condemn the interfaith ceremonies of Assisi.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #7 on: March 15, 2019, 08:34:19 AM »
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    • Xavier, you completely misinterpret the quotation from St. Augustine.

    Please note that Baptism of Desire is NOT the Sacrament of Baptism.  So please re-read the citation from St. Augustine with that in mind and try again.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #8 on: March 15, 2019, 08:35:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on March 14, 2019, 05:26:25 AM
    Yes, I agree.

    I believe a BOD, which is a man made doctrine that teaches a good intention by an infidel, brought on by an unforeseen accident, is salvific, is a terrible insult to the Providence of an all knowing and all mighty God.

    Stubborn, you're only agreeing because Xavier is misinterpreting the citation from St. Augustine.  He takes it as evidence in SUPPORT of Baptism of Desire, rather than the opposite ... which is exactly what it is.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #9 on: March 15, 2019, 08:47:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: JoeZ on March 15, 2019, 08:18:28 AM

    . Moreover, the original edition of The Catechism of the Council of Trent did not contain baptism of blood or baptism of desire. This is attested to by Fr. Wathen in his work Who Shall Ascend (p.225), where he states, “In the original edition of The Catechism, there is no mention of either term. In fact, one will not find the insertion of these terms [baptisms of desire and blood] until the late nineteenth century.” 
    Joe,

    Are you sure Father Wathen is talking of the Catechism of Trent and not the Baltimore Catechism? If so, what authority does he give for that other than the assertion?

    There's a video on youtube where Father Jenkins talks about seeing an original edition of the Catechism of Trent in Latin which contained the famous passage about BOD availing to justification in case of an unforeseen accident preventing baptism. At least Father Jenkins give as authority his own eyes. 


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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #10 on: March 15, 2019, 08:52:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 15, 2019, 08:35:32 AM
    Stubborn, you're only agreeing because Xavier is misinterpreting the citation from St. Augustine.  He takes it as evidence in SUPPORT of Baptism of Desire, rather than the opposite ... which is exactly what it is.
    I thought he was saying that the Church's idea of a BOD is that of Fr. Feeney's, namely, that God will supply the sacrament of  Baptism to those who desire it. That's what I was agreeing with.
     

    BTW Xavier, your quite from Fr. Feeney is originally from his book, The Bread of Life, although he may have repeated it numerous times even before his death.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #11 on: March 15, 2019, 11:00:17 AM »
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    • In 25 years of dealing with this subject of BOD, I have never once met a defender of BOD that did not stretch it to include salvation for all good people in all religions outside of the Church. It is called salvation by belief in a God that rewards, implicit faith for short. What is most surprising is that even the anti-Vatican II traditionalist priestly groups, both sedevacantes and SSPX, both teach their seminarians that non-Catholics can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards (that is: people who do not want to be Catholic, don not want to be baptized, do not even believe in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation, that those people can be saved), and yet they reject Vatican II when it teaches the same thing as clear as day.

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #12 on: March 15, 2019, 12:51:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on March 15, 2019, 08:52:51 AM
    I thought he was saying that the Church's idea of a BOD is that of Fr. Feeney's, namely, that God will supply the sacrament of  Baptism to those who desire it. That's what I was agreeing with.
     

    BTW Xavier, your quite from Fr. Feeney is originally from his book, The Bread of Life, although he may have repeated it numerous times even before his death.

    Xavier was using the St. Augustine quotation as evidence in FAVOR of BoD, rather than against it ... which is the opposite of St. Augustine's meaning.  And his misapplication of the quote is predicated on the imposition of "impossibility" on God and Divine Providence.

    See, the BODers respond that Feeneyism makes God bound by the Sacraments, whereas the real truth is that BoDers bind God with "impossibility".  We in fact say that God binds US with the Sacraments, not that He is bound BY them, and that He is perfectly capable of getting the Sacrament to His elect, as St. Augustine points out.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #13 on: March 15, 2019, 01:09:27 PM »
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    • Quote
    Are you sure Father Wathen is talking of the Catechism of Trent and not the Baltimore Catechism? If so, what authority does he give for that other than the assertion?
    Pretty sure Fr Wathen was talking about the Baltimore Catechism because i've heard that it was corrupted from the original edition.
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    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #14 on: March 15, 2019, 01:13:46 PM »
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    • Indeed.  It is as easy for God to get water to even the most "impossible" of cases as it is for Him to create a thousand universes.  

    St. Thomas Aquinas says that the providence of God governs the world and all things as if YOU were the only one in it.  Each one of us has His undivided attention.  And he does this for each and every individual.

    And He is more interested in our spiritual well-being and salvation than we are.

    "Behold the birds of the air, for they neither sow, nor do they reap, nor gather into barns: and your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are not you of much more value than they?"
    [Matthew 6:26]
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