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Author Topic: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?  (Read 20042 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #65 on: March 17, 2019, 04:02:44 PM »
Yes, Xavier, but the Council of Trent in its Session VI on justification says this:

Does this not directly and clearly say that something has changed "since the promulgation of the Gospel" as to the manner of justification? It sure does. It says that now, in the age of the Catholic Church and the full revelation and promulgation by Her of the Gospel of Our Lord, justification "cannot be effected" without the sacrament, or the desire for it. The sacrament of baptism is now necessary for justification either in re or in votum. Your men "from Adam to Christ" were justified before the promulgation of the Gospel, not "since."

God changed the game my friend, and now there is no salvation outside the Church, or at least without an explicit desire for the sacrament - without which justification "cannot be effected." I understand that the latter part - the necessity of an explicit desire, is my theological opinion. But it fits with the language of the Council, Session VI, Chapter IV, and I've never heard anyone deal with this language in Trent adequately so as to explain how the justification before Christ of the men "from Adam to Christ for 5200" years - via contrition and an act of love and desire to do God's will, an "implicit" desire for baptism - can avail now after the Gospel's promulgation when Trent says things have now changed.

What changed since the promulgation of the Gospel such that now it "cannot be effected" without the sacrament of baptism or the desire "thereof"?

Perhaps you can explain that where others haven't.
As Ladislaus pointed out many moons ago, the bolded is false because if it were true, then the sacrament could be effected even while the one who receives the sacrament, does so while wholly rejecting it or *without* desiring it. That's just the simple truth if the translation cannot occur without the sacrament or the desire thereof, then the justification occurs whether one receives the sacrament while desiring to be baptized or desiring not to be baptized.

As Trent's catechism says:

"The faithful are also to be instructed in the necessary dispositions for Baptism. In the first place they must desire and intend to receive it; for as in Baptism we all die to sin and resolve to live a new life, it is fit that it be administered to those only who receive it of their own free will and accord; it is to be forced upon none. Hence we learn from holy tradition that it has been the invariable practice to administer Baptism to no individual without previously asking him if he be willing to receive it. This disposition even infants are presumed to have, since the will of the Church, which promises for them, cannot be mistaken."

So my question is this: Can this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, be effected, with the laver of regeneration, but not the desire thereof? 

If you answer, "no", then you are in agreement with what is actually taught in both the Council of Trent, and Trent's catechism.


"And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

In this instance, "or" means "and".

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #66 on: March 17, 2019, 04:04:30 PM »

Stubborn, Br. Andre and the SBC Richmond still confess one baptism for the remission of sins and teach that the sacrament is necessary for salvation by a necessity of means. Karam's article was put on the SBC's website long before the Center received approval from their local ordinary to have a resident priest. I don't see how Br. Andre referencing it is proof that the Center has folded. It is an article of great historical interest being that it was explicitly referenced in the 1949 Holy Office Letter condemning the Center. It shows that the Holy Office was condemning the Center not for rejecting "baptism of desire" as many falsely say, but for upholding Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus in the sense that the dogma has been infallibly defined.
Thanks MarylandTrad.
I wrongfully read it that SBC had caved.


Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #67 on: March 18, 2019, 01:35:26 AM »
Quote from: JoeZ
https://www.ecatholic2000.com/haydock/ntcomment105.shtml Thank you for the link. I read through this and it supports my postition.

JoeZ, this is Fr. Haydock's exegesis of verse 47, "Such may be the grace of God occasionally towards men, and such their great charity and contrition, that they may have remission, justification, and sanctification, before the external sacraments of baptism, confirmation, and penance be received; as we see in this example: where, at Peter's preaching, they all received the Holy Ghost before any sacrament. But here we also learn one necessary lesson, that such, notwithstanding, must needs receive the sacraments appointed by Christ, which whosoever contemneth, can never be justified. S. Aug. sup. Levit. q. 84. T. 4." Does Fr. H believe no one who has charity or contrition and the desire of the Sacraments can receive justification?

Quote
Also, the booklet entitled "Perfect Contrition: The Golden Key to Paradise [including for all of us(!)]":
Quote
https://www.ecatholic2000.com/cts/untitled-110.shtml As far as we know, the perfect act of contrition affects only those on their way to the confessional. To apply it to the unbaptised does not follow.
Fr. Lehmkuhl disagrees and that book explains it fairly well. But if you still disagree, how do you explain what Pope St. Pius X said "an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire." That's fairly straightforward again, and as others have mentioned, the Baltimore Catechism taught the same; Pope Leo XIII approved it.

There's really no doubt about Baptism of Desire and to focus on it confuses the issue for many; Fr. Feeney's final position appears to be, "there is no one about to die in the state of grace to whom God cannot provide Baptism, and indeed Baptism of Water". That also appears to be St. Augustine's final position on the issue. At any rate, this is explicitly what St. Benedict's Centre believes today. The Magisterium has declared it to be permissible to believe that. SBC explains they don't deny anyone dying in grace will be saved.

It may be better to ask, Will everyone who receives Justification through Baptism of Desire, also receive the Sacrament of Baptism, as was the case with Cornelius above: St. Thomas says on Cornelius, "Reply to Objection 2. As stated above (Article 1, Reply to Objection 2; III:68:2) man receives the forgiveness of sins before Baptism in so far as he has Baptism of desire, explicitly or implicitly; and yet when he actually receives Baptism, he receives a fuller remission, as to the remission of the entire punishment. So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but afterwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fulness of grace and virtues. Hence in Psalm 22:2, "He hath brought me up on the water of refreshment," a gloss says: "He has brought us up by an increase of virtue and good deeds in Baptism." (Tertia Pars, Q.69,A.5)

There is also St. Ambrose: http://lonelypilgrim.com/2013/09/23/st-ambrose-on-the-baptism-of-desire/ "Has he not, then, the grace which he desired; has he not the grace which he requested? And because he asked, he received, and therefore it is said: ‘By whatsoever death the just man shall be overtaken, his soul shall be at rest’ (Wisdom 4:7) Grant, therefore, O holy Father, to Thy servant the gift which Moses received, because he saw in spirit; the gift which David merited, because he knew from revelation. Grant, I pray, to Thy servant Valentinian the gift which he longed for, the gift which he requested while in health, vigor, and security. If, stricken with sickness, he had deferred it, he would not be entirely without Thy mercy who has been cheated by the swiftness of time, not by his own wish. Grant, therefore, to Thy servant the gift of Thy grace which he never rejected … He who had Thy Spirit, how has he not received Thy grace? ... (56) Offer the holy mysteries with your hands, with devoted love let us ask for his repose. Offer the heavenly sacraments, let us accompany the soul of our son with our oblations. ‘Lift up with me, O people, your hands to the holy place’ (Psalm 133(134):2), so that at least through this service we may repay him for his deserts. Not with flowers shall I sprinkle his grave, but I shall bedew his spirit with the odor of Christ. Let others scatter lilies in basketfuls. Christ is our lily, and with this lily I shall bless his remains, with this I shall recommend for his favor."

These are the two authorities Pope Innocent III relied on, "Apostolicam: Read, brother, in the eighth book of Augustine’s City of God where among other things it is written, “Baptism is ministered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion but death excludes.” Read again the book also of the blessed Ambrose concerning the death of Valentinian where he says the same thing. Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers, and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the priest mentioned"

Fr. Feeney was reconciled merely upon professing the Athanasian Creed. Pope St. Pius X also taught the necessity of the Catholic Faith. God will bring pagans who sincerely seek the Truth to Christ in ways known to Him. Fr. Mueller taught this in an approved Catechism also. Those who see this do not need to begin by arguing almost every Catechism the Church has ever approved.

It cannot be doubted that God will Provide for all His Elect. If you want to speculate there was an invisible water Baptism for Valentian etc, that is a permissible opinion. But Baptism of Desire is not as such debatable because the Church has pronounced on it. God bless.

Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #68 on: March 18, 2019, 02:41:49 AM »
JoeZ, this is Fr. Haydock's exegesis of verse 47, "Such may be the grace of God occasionally towards men, and such their great charity and contrition, that they may have remission, justification, and sanctification, before the external sacraments of baptism, confirmation, and penance be received; as we see in this example: where, at Peter's preaching, they all received the Holy Ghost before any sacrament. But here we also learn one necessary lesson, that such, notwithstanding, must needs receive the sacraments appointed by Christ, which whosoever contemneth, can never be justified. S. Aug. sup. Levit. q. 84. T. 4." Does Fr. H believe no one who has charity or contrition and the desire of the Sacraments can receive justification?
Fr. Lehmkuhl disagrees and that book explains it fairly well. But if you still disagree, how do you explain what Pope St. Pius X said "an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire." That's fairly straightforward again, and as others have mentioned, the Baltimore Catechism taught the same; Pope Leo XIII approved it.

There's really no doubt about Baptism of Desire and to focus on it confuses the issue for many; Fr. Feeney's final position appears to be, "there is no one about to die in the state of grace to whom God cannot provide Baptism, and indeed Baptism of Water". That also appears to be St. Augustine's final position on the issue. At any rate, this is explicitly what St. Benedict's Centre believes today. The Magisterium has declared it to be permissible to believe that. SBC explains they don't deny anyone dying in grace will be saved.

It may be better to ask, Will everyone who receives Justification through Baptism of Desire, also receive the Sacrament of Baptism, as was the case with Cornelius above: St. Thomas says on Cornelius, "Reply to Objection 2. As stated above (Article 1, Reply to Objection 2; III:68:2) man receives the forgiveness of sins before Baptism in so far as he has Baptism of desire, explicitly or implicitly; and yet when he actually receives Baptism, he receives a fuller remission, as to the remission of the entire punishment. So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but afterwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fulness of grace and virtues. Hence in Psalm 22:2, "He hath brought me up on the water of refreshment," a gloss says: "He has brought us up by an increase of virtue and good deeds in Baptism." (Tertia Pars, Q.69,A.5)

There is also St. Ambrose: http://lonelypilgrim.com/2013/09/23/st-ambrose-on-the-baptism-of-desire/ "Has he not, then, the grace which he desired; has he not the grace which he requested? And because he asked, he received, and therefore it is said: ‘By whatsoever death the just man shall be overtaken, his soul shall be at rest’ (Wisdom 4:7) Grant, therefore, O holy Father, to Thy servant the gift which Moses received, because he saw in spirit; the gift which David merited, because he knew from revelation. Grant, I pray, to Thy servant Valentinian the gift which he longed for, the gift which he requested while in health, vigor, and security. If, stricken with sickness, he had deferred it, he would not be entirely without Thy mercy who has been cheated by the swiftness of time, not by his own wish. Grant, therefore, to Thy servant the gift of Thy grace which he never rejected … He who had Thy Spirit, how has he not received Thy grace? ... (56) Offer the holy mysteries with your hands, with devoted love let us ask for his repose. Offer the heavenly sacraments, let us accompany the soul of our son with our oblations. ‘Lift up with me, O people, your hands to the holy place’ (Psalm 133(134):2), so that at least through this service we may repay him for his deserts. Not with flowers shall I sprinkle his grave, but I shall bedew his spirit with the odor of Christ. Let others scatter lilies in basketfuls. Christ is our lily, and with this lily I shall bless his remains, with this I shall recommend for his favor."

These are the two authorities Pope Innocent III relied on, "Apostolicam: Read, brother, in the eighth book of Augustine’s City of God where among other things it is written, “Baptism is ministered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion but death excludes.” Read again the book also of the blessed Ambrose concerning the death of Valentinian where he says the same thing. Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers, and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the priest mentioned"

Fr. Feeney was reconciled merely upon professing the Athanasian Creed. Pope St. Pius X also taught the necessity of the Catholic Faith. God will bring pagans who sincerely seek the Truth to Christ in ways known to Him. Fr. Mueller taught this in an approved Catechism also. Those who see this do not need to begin by arguing almost every Catechism the Church has ever approved.

It cannot be doubted that God will Provide for all His Elect. If you want to speculate there was an invisible water Baptism for Valentian etc, that is a permissible opinion. But Baptism of Desire is not as such debatable because the Church has pronounced on it. God bless.
There is only one baptism and this is the sacrament of water and the holy ghost which all men must receive in order to go to heaven. If you want to call the extraordinary reception of this sacrament baptism of desire or blood (when Angels often provide the form) then OK, but if you dilineate these terms as something different to the water baptism then this is inexcusable heresy.
No amount of legalism will get around the fact that except a man be born again of water and the holy ghost he shall not enter the kingdom of heaven

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #69 on: March 18, 2019, 04:11:48 PM »
Hi DecemRationis. Quick reply. Yes, I agree as far as I understood. After the promulgation of the Gospel, things changed because we now need explicit Catholic Faith in at least the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation of the Word/Son of God for salvation, as the Creed of St. Athanasius teaches us, for salvation; it is possible God may also give Baptism itself to all He has justified by BOD. Have to run now.

Even the ancient OT patriarchs were all waiting for redemption only through Christ, and had to believe in Him to go to Heaven.

God bless. Will get back later.

Hi, Xavier. I agree that explicit Catholic faith is required now. 

However, the Council specifically indicates a change in the manner of justification since the promulgation of the Gospel and doesn't say, "now you must have the Catholic faith," but then says now you must have "the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof." 

You could argue that there is an implicit desire for baptism in one having a Catholic faith in the Trinity and Incarnation (Christ), and that therefore the "desire thereof" is referencing someone with the Catholic faith in Christ but not yet baptized (even without knowledge of baptism in the inchoate state of his faith). Interesting. 

But the Catechism of Trent elaborates on the referenced "desire thereof" in my view, and it's a repentant catechumen's desire for baptism which he's preparing for. 

DR