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Author Topic: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?  (Read 16799 times)

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Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2019, 06:29:12 PM »
What about the women to whom Jesus said, "your faith hath saved you." She was quite alive.

That biblical passage only shows that Justification is attributed not only to her Faith, but also to love or Charity (and Hope too!, even if it is not named here). Basically, it is referring to the three theological virtues in the perfect pattern of true penance, which do not exclude each other. That is all there is to it.

There is no reason to suspect that the woman died without the water Baptism.   

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2019, 06:37:57 PM »
That biblical passage only shows that Justification is attributed not only to her Faith, but also to love or Charity (and Hope too!, even if it is not named here). Basically, it is referring to the three theological virtues in the perfect pattern of true penance, which do not exclude each other. That is all there is to it.

There is no reason to suspect that the woman died without the water Baptism.  

Hi. I'm not arguing that, and it was not the purpose for the quote.


Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2019, 07:47:40 PM »
Last Tradhican wrote -  " In 25 years of dealing with this subject of BOD, I have never once met a defender of BOD that did not stretch it to include salvation for all good people in all religions outside of the Church. It is called salvation by belief in a God that rewards, implicit faith for short. What is most surprising is that even the anti-Vatican II traditionalist priestly groups, both sedevacantes and SSPX, both teach their seminarians that non-Catholics can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards (that is: people who do not want to be Catholic, don not want to be baptized, do not even believe in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation, that those people can be saved), and yet they reject Vatican II when it teaches the same thing as clear as day."


You mean "met" as in face to face or in person I presume. Because there are those around here who I'm sure you have encountered that recognize BOD without stretching it "to include salvation for all good people in all religions outside of the Church." I am one; off the top of my head, I believe Nishant would be one also. There are others.  

I have never met a defender of BOD that does not believe in salvation by implicit faith, that is, salvation by belief in a god the rewards. People who restrict their belief in baptism of desire to a catechumen, do not go to forums to argue about it relentlessly, to defend their BOD. Nishant had to be pushed to get him to the position of "saying" that he restricts it, and I for you stated that I do not believe him. Anyone that really restricts BOD to the catechumen, would not be posting in favor of the BOD for fear of being associated with modernists who teach the false BOD.  I have never seen a person who says they restrict BOD to the catechumen, attack the real enemy, the 99% of BODers who stretch it to the max, salvation by belief in a god that rewards.

No defender of EENS as it is written, ever cared one iota about the argument that a catechumen who gets killed on the way to be baptized, "may" be saved. That was never what all of these endless threads on CI were about.

Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2019, 08:07:45 PM »
I'm too new (to the faith, not even just to the forum) to state any kind of strong opinion here, but I do have a question about what's being stated here.

Did Archbishop Lefebvre, or do any conservative advocates of a BOD that applies to more than just catechumens, believe in salvation *by* faith in a God who rewards?  Or do they, rather, state that belief in a God that rewards is simply a minimum threshold below which nobody could ever be saved, under any circuмstance?

As I recall Lefebvre (right or wrong) said that if a non-Catholic was saved it would be despite their religion, not because of it.

Though that whole portion of the exchange bothered me, one thing that *really* bothered me about Bishop Barron's whole answer to Shapiro being like "I'm a Jew, can I still go to heaven?" was that he claimed Vatican II says even an *atheist* of good will "can be" saved.  It especially bothered me for two reasons.  One of the reasons was that Vatican II simply doesn't say this.  It doesn't mention atheists at all.  But the other thing is that the idea that someone can be ignorant of God's eternal power and divine nature seems to straight up contradict Romans 1.  So like, even if you can debate when/if/how someone could be invincibly ignorant of Jesus Christ, or the Catholic Church specifically, it seems like according to sacred scripture it is *not possible* to be ignorant of God's eternal power or divine nature. 

Would using that reasoning, and thus saying that its hypothetically possible for God (by his grace and despite, not because of their errors) to save someone who believes in a God who rewards and is perfectly contrite for any mortal sins, but that God would not save an atheist in any case because the atheist is AUTOMATICALLY in mortal sin for denying what he knows full well is true, be distinguishable from saying anyone is saved BECAUSE they believe in a God who rewards?

Note that I'm posing a question here, not claiming that I have this right.  I'm also not arguing AGAINST the strict position here, just wondering if we can logically deliniate. 

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2019, 09:01:23 PM »
Ladislaus, could you provide the Latin word that's used there?  That would be very useful in future discussions.

Sorry.  I had a Latin copy at one point but can't find it anymore.