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Author Topic: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?  (Read 16816 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2019, 03:11:54 PM »
Quote from: DecemRationis on March 15, 2019, 03:01:01 PM
I believe Xavier is referring to the position of the SBC as being that God will provide the sacrament to all of His elect, to all the saved. I think that indeed is the SBC position. I believe the SBC recognizes that someone could be justified by desire and if they died before receipt of the sacrament in that justified state they would be saved, BUT THAT'S A HYPOTHETICAL AND NEVER HAPPENS.

Thus, the SBC agrees with the Roman Catechism that "should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness." The SBC then adds, "but there ain't no should." :)

Xavier says this is the position of St. Augustine (we can at least say he joins St. Thomas in citing St. Augustine as recognizing BOD), and Xavier then closes as to the position of St. Augustine/the SBC: "St. Augustine's view is excellent, very probably true, and eminently defensible."

Good for him.  
It says "unforeseen accident", not "unforeseen accidental death" or "accidental death".

It says "grace and righteousness", not "salvation" - which is why SBC correctly agrees with what it teaches. Again, when read as it is written, a BOD is never even hinted in Trent's catechism.  

Note that "grace and righteousness" are strictly for the living. 
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2019, 03:17:46 PM »
Quote from: DecemRationis on March 15, 2019, 03:01:01 PM
Thus, the SBC agrees with the Roman Catechism that "should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."

This is a universally misunderstood/misinterpreted quotation.  This does not mean that the desire for Baptism supplies for grace and righteousness, but that the desire would be efficacious in order to obtain the Sacrament (despite the theoretical possibility of an accident intervening).  In other words, the desire for the Sacrament would prevail over any accident that might prevent its reception.  In other words, it's a restating of the very St. Augustine position that was cited by the OP.  So the more appropriate translation is more like, "the desire for the Sacrament would avail them to grace lest an unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed ..."

There's an analogous quote in St. Fulgentius, where he's explicitly rejecting Baptism of Desire, and he uses the same expression ("avail to") ... probably the Latin valere in both cases.  I'll have to dig it up but I've cited it here before.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2019, 03:21:47 PM »
OK, here.

St. Fulgentius
Quote
And as for that young man whom we know to have believed and confessed his faith, ... God desired that his confession should avail for his salvation ...

Teaching in favor of Baptism of Desire, right?
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2019, 03:23:04 PM »
Wait.  Not so fast.

St. Fulgentius
Quote
But God desired that his confession should avail for his salvation, since he preserved him in this life until the time of his holy regeneration.

It's not unlikely that Trent had this teaching in mind with that Catechism passage.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2019, 03:24:48 PM »
St. Fulgentius teaches, like Trent, that both Baptism and the desire (in his words, "confession") are required for salvation.
Quote
If anyone is not baptized, not only in ignorance, but even knowingly, he can in no way be saved. For his path to salvation was through the confession, and salvation itself was in baptism. At his age, not only was confession without baptism of no avail: Baptism itself would be of no avail for salvation if he neither believed nor confessed.

As an interesting note, the teaching of St. Fulgentius was adopted almost word for word in the dogmatic EENS definition of Pope Eugene IV in Cantate Domino.

St. Fulgentius
Quote
Hold most firmly and never doubt in the least that not only all pagans but also all Jews and all heretics and schismatics who end this present life outside the Catholic Church are about to go into the eternal fire that was prepared for the Devil and his angels.

Pope Eugene IV in Cantate Domino
Quote
those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock
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