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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2019, 01:14:59 PM »
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  • In 25 years of dealing with this subject of BOD, I have never once met a defender of BOD that did not stretch it to include salvation for all good people in all religions outside of the Church. It is called salvation by belief in a God that rewards, implicit faith for short. What is most surprising is that even the anti-Vatican II traditionalist priestly groups, both sedevacantes and SSPX, both teach their seminarians that non-Catholics can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards (that is: people who do not want to be Catholic, don not want to be baptized, do not even believe in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation, that those people can be saved), and yet they reject Vatican II when it teaches the same thing as clear as day.
    You mean "met" as in face to face or in person I presume. Because there are those around here who I'm sure you have encountered that recognize BOD without stretching it "to include salvation for all good people in all religions outside of the Church." I am one; off the top of my head, I believe Nishant would be one also. There are others.  
    I believe in the Apostolic Catholic Church. I reject and denounce the malfeasant or “dysfunctional papal or episcopal Newchurch.” - Father Paul Trinchard

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #16 on: March 15, 2019, 01:15:52 PM »
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  • Pretty sure Fr Wathen was talking about the Baltimore Catechism because i've heard that it was corrupted from the original edition.
    I think so too, but I don't know the quote so I can't say. 
    I believe in the Apostolic Catholic Church. I reject and denounce the malfeasant or “dysfunctional papal or episcopal Newchurch.” - Father Paul Trinchard


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #17 on: March 15, 2019, 01:21:26 PM »
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  • Xavier was using the St. Augustine quotation as evidence in FAVOR of BoD, rather than against it ... which is the opposite of St. Augustine's meaning.  And his misapplication of the quote is predicated on the imposition of "impossibility" on God and Divine Providence.
    Ahh, I see that now.
    That's pretty screwed up.
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #18 on: March 15, 2019, 01:25:55 PM »
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  • Joe,

    Are you sure Father Wathen is talking of the Catechism of Trent and not the Baltimore Catechism? If so, what authority does he give for that other than the assertion?
    All anyone has to do is read Trent's Catechism as it is written, a BOD is not even hinted in it anywhere.

    ETA: Fr. Wathen quoted the Council of Trent for sure - I don't know if he quoted Trent's Catechism or not.
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #19 on: March 15, 2019, 03:01:01 PM »
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  • I believe Xavier is referring to the position of the SBC as being that God will provide the sacrament to all of His elect, to all the saved. I think that indeed is the SBC position. I believe the SBC recognizes that someone could be justified by desire and if they died before receipt of the sacrament in that justified state they would be saved, BUT THAT'S A HYPOTHETICAL AND NEVER HAPPENS.

    Thus, the SBC agrees with the Roman Catechism that "should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness." The SBC then adds, "but there ain't no should." :)

    Xavier says this is the position of St. Augustine (we can at least say he joins St. Thomas in citing St. Augustine as recognizing BOD), and Xavier then closes as to the position of St. Augustine/the SBC: "St. Augustine's view is excellent, very probably true, and eminently defensible."

    Good for him.  

    I believe in the Apostolic Catholic Church. I reject and denounce the malfeasant or “dysfunctional papal or episcopal Newchurch.” - Father Paul Trinchard


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #20 on: March 15, 2019, 03:11:54 PM »
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  • I believe Xavier is referring to the position of the SBC as being that God will provide the sacrament to all of His elect, to all the saved. I think that indeed is the SBC position. I believe the SBC recognizes that someone could be justified by desire and if they died before receipt of the sacrament in that justified state they would be saved, BUT THAT'S A HYPOTHETICAL AND NEVER HAPPENS.

    Thus, the SBC agrees with the Roman Catechism that "should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness." The SBC then adds, "but there ain't no should." :)

    Xavier says this is the position of St. Augustine (we can at least say he joins St. Thomas in citing St. Augustine as recognizing BOD), and Xavier then closes as to the position of St. Augustine/the SBC: "St. Augustine's view is excellent, very probably true, and eminently defensible."

    Good for him.  
    It says "unforeseen accident", not "unforeseen accidental death" or "accidental death".

    It says "grace and righteousness", not "salvation" - which is why SBC correctly agrees with what it teaches. Again, when read as it is written, a BOD is never even hinted in Trent's catechism.  

    Note that "grace and righteousness" are strictly for the living. 
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #21 on: March 15, 2019, 03:17:46 PM »
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  • Thus, the SBC agrees with the Roman Catechism that "should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."

    This is a universally misunderstood/misinterpreted quotation.  This does not mean that the desire for Baptism supplies for grace and righteousness, but that the desire would be efficacious in order to obtain the Sacrament (despite the theoretical possibility of an accident intervening).  In other words, the desire for the Sacrament would prevail over any accident that might prevent its reception.  In other words, it's a restating of the very St. Augustine position that was cited by the OP.  So the more appropriate translation is more like, "the desire for the Sacrament would avail them to grace lest an unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed ..."

    There's an analogous quote in St. Fulgentius, where he's explicitly rejecting Baptism of Desire, and he uses the same expression ("avail to") ... probably the Latin valere in both cases.  I'll have to dig it up but I've cited it here before.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #22 on: March 15, 2019, 03:21:47 PM »
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  • OK, here.

    St. Fulgentius
    Quote
    And as for that young man whom we know to have believed and confessed his faith, ... God desired that his confession should avail for his salvation ...

    Teaching in favor of Baptism of Desire, right?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #23 on: March 15, 2019, 03:23:04 PM »
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  • Wait.  Not so fast.

    St. Fulgentius
    Quote
    But God desired that his confession should avail for his salvation, since he preserved him in this life until the time of his holy regeneration.

    It's not unlikely that Trent had this teaching in mind with that Catechism passage.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #24 on: March 15, 2019, 03:24:48 PM »
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  • St. Fulgentius teaches, like Trent, that both Baptism and the desire (in his words, "confession") are required for salvation.
    Quote
    If anyone is not baptized, not only in ignorance, but even knowingly, he can in no way be saved. For his path to salvation was through the confession, and salvation itself was in baptism. At his age, not only was confession without baptism of no avail: Baptism itself would be of no avail for salvation if he neither believed nor confessed.

    As an interesting note, the teaching of St. Fulgentius was adopted almost word for word in the dogmatic EENS definition of Pope Eugene IV in Cantate Domino.

    St. Fulgentius
    Quote
    Hold most firmly and never doubt in the least that not only all pagans but also all Jews and all heretics and schismatics who end this present life outside the Catholic Church are about to go into the eternal fire that was prepared for the Devil and his angels.

    Pope Eugene IV in Cantate Domino
    Quote
    those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #25 on: March 15, 2019, 03:34:41 PM »
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  • It says "unforeseen accident", not "unforeseen accidental death" or "accidental death".

    It says "grace and righteousness", not "salvation" - which is why SBC correctly agrees with what it teaches. Again, when read as it is written, a BOD is never even hinted in Trent's catechism.  

    Note that "grace and righteousness" are strictly for the living.

    Great point.  Also, in Latin, the word "accident" does not have the same connotation that it does in English (severe injury putting one on the brink of death).  It just means some circumstance happens to come up.  Recall St. Thomas using the term "substance" vs. "accidents" (something that happens to be there).

    So then Trent's passage will mean something like -- "an adult's resolve to receive Baptism would overcome any obstacle that might get in the way of their receiving the Sacrament."


    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #26 on: March 15, 2019, 03:41:59 PM »
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  • Great point.  Also, in Latin, the word "accident" does not have the same connotation that it does in English (severe injury putting one on the brink of death).  It just means some circumstance happens to come up.  Recall St. Thomas using the term "substance" vs. "accidents" (something that happens to be there).

    So then Trent's passage will mean something like -- "an adult's resolve to receive Baptism would overcome any obstacle that might get in the way of their receiving the Sacrament."
    Ladislaus, could you provide the Latin word that's used there?  That would be very useful in future discussions.
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #27 on: March 15, 2019, 04:26:13 PM »
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  • It says "unforeseen accident", not "unforeseen accidental death" or "accidental death".

    It says "grace and righteousness", not "salvation" - which is why SBC correctly agrees with what it teaches. Again, when read as it is written, a BOD is never even hinted in Trent's catechism.  

    Note that "grace and righteousness" are strictly for the living.
    Stubborn,

    Brother Andre Marie had an episode on BOD on his Reconquest Radio show, Episode 109. He cites several good articles in his discussion, including Raymond Karem's original Reply to a Liberal Part III, also posted on catholicisim.org - https://veritasradionetwork.com/reconquest-episode-109-catholic-considerations-on-baptism-of-desire/

    You know the history of this and the importance of Karam's article in From the Housetops. In the article Karam says this:

    Quote
    "In answer to our third question, therefore, we shall say that, according to the majority of the Fathers and Doctors, baptism of the Holy Spirit, without the actual reception of Baptism of water, can be sufficient for salvation if the following five conditions are fulfilled . . ."

    https://catholicism.org/rptal-part3.html#3.

    Are you saying Brother Andre, or more broadly the SBC, disagrees with that?

    I say they do not : de jure it could [Karam, "can be sufficient"] SAVE, but de facto it doesn't happen.

    DR
    I believe in the Apostolic Catholic Church. I reject and denounce the malfeasant or “dysfunctional papal or episcopal Newchurch.” - Father Paul Trinchard

    Offline JoeZ

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #28 on: March 15, 2019, 04:27:30 PM »
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  • Joe,

    Are you sure Father Wathen is talking of the Catechism of Trent and not the Baltimore Catechism? If so, what authority does he give for that other than the assertion?

    There's a video on youtube where Father Jenkins talks about seeing an original edition of the Catechism of Trent in Latin which contained the famous passage about BOD availing to justification in case of an unforeseen accident preventing baptism. At least Father Jenkins give as authority his own eyes.


    DR
    I may need to correct/retract this but off the top of my head I can't remember. Please give me some time to read it again.
    Thank you.
    Pray the Holy Rosary.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Do you agree with St. Benedict's Centre on both BOD and EENS?
    « Reply #29 on: March 15, 2019, 04:33:01 PM »
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  • St. Fulgentius teaches, like Trent, that both Baptism and the desire (in his words, "confession") are required for salvation.


    Quote
    If anyone is not baptized, not only in ignorance, but even knowingly, he can in no way be saved. For his path to salvation was through the confession, and salvation itself was in baptism. At his age, not only was confession without baptism of no availBaptism itself would be of no avail for salvation if he neither believed nor confessed.


    Except Trent doesn't have a "ne" or "neque" before "avail." 
    I believe in the Apostolic Catholic Church. I reject and denounce the malfeasant or “dysfunctional papal or episcopal Newchurch.” - Father Paul Trinchard

     

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