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Author Topic: Do Protestants Have Faith?  (Read 4321 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

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Re: Do Protestants Have Faith?
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2021, 10:28:18 AM »
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  • How can you guys argue that a baptized person is invincibly ignorant of the Church?  That’s a denial of 1) the supernatural effects of baptism, which infuses faith, hope, and charity, and 2) a denial of the effects of sanctifying grace, and of the enlightenment of the Holy Ghost.  
    .
    A baptized person is a member of the church, and thus, they are not invincibly ignorant of Her.  To say the opposite makes no sense.
    We can imagine scenarios. For instance let's say a Baptist in the backwoods of Alabama, very rural, doesn't have internet access, has never met anyone other than other Baptists. That may seem really implausible but the point isn't how likely it is, the point is dealing with the theoreticals and what their implications are. I think I would say the guy is a member of the church, since he's baptized and doesn't have enough information to have rejected the Catholic faith. Nevertheless I would still say he is in serious danger of hell due to lack of access to priests and sacraments. But I would believe his salvation would be possible, provided he would be willing to believe the truth if it was presented to him, and provided he did have perfect contrition for his mortal sins, even if he didn't know what perfect contrition  meant.
    I imagine ladislaus would say he's still automatically damned unless he receives a supernatural miracle on his deathbed, because he doesn't have the correct formal motive of faith.
    Another example might be a Russian Orthodox peasant living in 1300 AD in Moscow. Presumably they would have no exposure to the doctrine of the Roman pontiff, and thus they really wouldn't have any idea that they were in the wrong church. I'm not absolutely positive what Ladislaus would say of this situation.  It seems to me that even he should admit that they have the correct formal mode of a faith here, because they believe whatever the "Catholic Church" tells them and are just materially mistaken that it's in Moscow and not Rome, but I don't know if I'm missing some other distinction here. In this case it seems to me they would not even absolutely need perfect condition for salvation because as long as they are invincibly ignorant, which given the scenario they are, they could be forgiven of their sins through confession to the Russian Orthodox priest, even if the priest himself was culpable for schism


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Do Protestants Have Faith?
    « Reply #16 on: May 31, 2021, 10:32:26 AM »
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  • In all your heretical ramblings you have failed to define positively the requirements for supernatural faith but merely rely upon lack of active sin against faith to assume the possession of supernatural faith ... clearly rejected by St. Thomas.  Your definition is a negative one only and it fails.

    There are two aspects to supernatural faith ... the material and the formal.  Minimum material requirements are belief in the central mysteries of the Holy Trinity and Incarnation.  Formal requirement is the formal motive of faith based on the infallible supernatural rule of faith.

    That is precisely why it is said that if a Catholic were to obstinately reject one dogma, he rejects all dogma ... because he rejects the authority behind all dogma.  Protestants lack this submission to the same rule right out of the gate.  If he rejects one out of the, say, 250 or so dogmas, the remaining 249 that he materially believes, he no longer believes formally.
    I can't speak for Xavier but this seems like a straw man of his position. All traditional Catholics believe at minimum that supernatural faith absolutely requires at least a belief in  God and that God is a rewarder and a punisher. It seems like Xavier goes even further and holds the position that the Trinity and the incarnation are required.  So it doesn't seem like his position is that people can be saved simply for lack of fault without supernatural faith, rather he believes that a belief in the Trinity combined and incarnation combined with a lack of culpability due to lack of knowledge of other Catholic precepts could lead to salvation.
    At this point I think the debate would come down to at what level does believing things for the wrong reasons automatically damn. For instance you would be correct to say that believing in the Trinity and incarnation based on one's own private interpretation of scripture isn't erroneous means to come to that conclusion, but is it impossible that someone who makes that mistake still has supernatural faith? I don't know, Aquinas would say that they can't if they obstinately deny a dogma, but what exactly does obstinancy mean? If the idea of believing something just because of church said to had literally never occurred to them, is that really obstinancy? Even if the idea had never even been presented to them?
    I mean it's ultimately probably best to allow God to answer these questions at the judgment seat, and in the meantime, endeavor to make as many people formal and visible members of the Catholic Church as possible. I think Lefebvre would also agree. The problem is some people here think we have to take an adamant, uncompromising stance that every single person who has not formally invisibly joined the Catholic Church is damned and that's what some of us contest 


    Offline Matto

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    Re: Do Protestants Have Faith?
    « Reply #17 on: May 31, 2021, 10:46:47 AM »
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  • Protestants can have supernatural faith and perfect contrition if they are (1) invincibly ignorant or in (2) material heresy.
    A protestant being invincibly ignorant after childhood seems almost impossible. Invincibly ignorant means it would be impossible for them to know any better. The protestants know about the Church and reject her. It is like the Jєωs. They are raised to hate Jesus, yet they are invincibly ignorant of Jesus? Young children and retards and that's all. Other than that, it would be so rare as to be ignored. And as for perfect contrition, having perfect contrition after baptism requires the desire to go to confession as soon as possible, a sacrament most of the protestants reject, so how can they desire it? The baptized babies have faith.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Do Protestants Have Faith?
    « Reply #18 on: May 31, 2021, 10:51:57 AM »
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  • Protestants are not inside the Church. Period. Unless they are validly baptized, explicitly believe in the Holy Trinity, the Incarnation, and the Redemption and are INVINCIBLY IGNORANT of the True Church, it’s impossible for them to be saved. Also, since they most likely don’t have access to valid sacraments, they would have to make an act of perfect contrition before they die if they have been guilty of any mortal sin.
    Correction.....
    If the person I described above is saved, he IS NOT a Protestant he is actually a Catholic.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do Protestants Have Faith?
    « Reply #19 on: May 31, 2021, 01:24:36 PM »
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  • Quote
    But I would believe his salvation would be possible, provided he would be willing to believe the truth if it was presented to him,
    Ahh, but this is the error of naturalism and/or empiricism.  You are saying supernatural truths only come through natural means.  You are denying (not you, but your argument) that a baptized person, in the state of grace, cannot be be given spiritual insights about the Church.  Or that God cannot give such a person spiritual dreams, or even visions.  You’re denying the counsels of the guardian angel/conscience.  You’re denying the inspirations of the Holy Ghost.  
    .
    All of this is possible to those in the state of grace.  Heck, these things can happen to those who aren’t even baptized (as is proved by multiple, multiple miraculous accounts of conversions of modern day Muslims).
    .
    In short, you are denying the salvific influence of grace and of Divine Providence.  You limit God’s power and workings to mere human understanding/operations. History is FILLED with conversions which prove your lack of Faith.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Do Protestants Have Faith?
    « Reply #20 on: May 31, 2021, 01:44:15 PM »
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  • The Catholic Dogma by Michael Müller


    http://traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Information/The_Catholic_Dogma/Chapter-V_Part-II.html#INVINCIBLE%20OR%20INCULPABLE%20IGNORANCE



    § 7. INVINCIBLE OR INCULPABLE IGNORANCE NEITHER SAVES NOR DAMNS A PERSON.


    Quote
    (. . .)

    Inculpable or invincible ignorance has never been and will never be a means of salvation. To be saved, it is necessary to be justified, or to be in the state of sanctifying grace. In order to obtain sanctifying grace, it is necessary to have the proper dispositions for justification; that is, true divine faith in at least the necessary truths of salvation, confident hope in the divine Saviour, sincere sorrow for sin, together with the firm purpose of doing all that God has commanded, etc. Now, these supernatural acts of faith, hope, charity, contrition, etc., which prepare the soul for receiving sanctifying grace, can never be supplied by invincible ignorance; and if invincible ignorance cannot supply the preparation for receiving sanctifying grace, much less can it bestow sanctifying grace itself. "Invincible ignorance," says St. Thomas Aquinas, "is a punishment for sin." (De Infid. q. x., art. 1.) It is, then, a curse, but not a blessing or a means of salvation.

    But if we say that inculpable ignorance cannot save a man, we thereby do not say that invincible ignorance damns a man. Far from it. To say, invincible ignorance is no means of salvation, is one thing; and to say, invincible ignorance is the cause of damnation is another. To maintain the latter, would be wrong, for inculpable ignorance of the fundamental principles of faith excuses a heathen from the sin of infidelity, and a Protestant from the sin of heresy; because such invincible ignorance, being only a simple involuntary privation, is no sin.

    Hence Pius IX. said "that, were a man to be invincibly ignorant of the true religion, such invincible ignorance would not be sinful before God; that, if such a person should observe the precepts of the Natural Law and do the will of God to the best of his knowledge, God, in his infinite mercy, may enlighten him so as to obtain eternal life; for, the Lord, who knows the heart and thoughts of man will, in his infinite goodness, not suffer any one to be lost forever without his own fault."



    § 8. HOW ALMIGHTY GOD LEADS TO SALVATION THOSE WHO ARE INCULPABLY IGNORANT OF THE TRUTHS OF SALVATION.



    Quote
    Almighty God, who is just and condemns no one without his fault, puts, therefore, such souls as are in invincible ignorance of the truths of salvation, in the way of salvation, either by natural or supernatural means.

    There is a Protestant. He lived in a part of Germany where he always remained invincibly ignorant of the true religion, but lived up to the dictates of his conscience. At last he resolved to emigrate to this country, with a view of benefiting himself temporally. But Almighty God had other designs in regard to him. He wished to put him in the way of salvation. This Protestant goes into a Protestant church in this country. He sees at once a vast difference between the Protestants in America and those in Europe. He is perplexed at this difference, and begins to doubt about the truth of Protestantism. To make sure whether he is right or wrong in his religion, he communicates his doubts to a well-instructed Catholic friend, who explains to him what true religion is, and where it is found. Accordingly, as he is upright before God, and wishes to save his soul, he makes up his mind to become a Catholic. Thus the emigration of this Protestant to this country was, in the hands of God, the natural means of putting him in the way of salvation.

    Not long ago, a friend of mine told me that a lady who was on board a steamer dropped a Catholic book into the water. The captain of the boat saved the book, and read it before returning it, and at last became a Catholic. Humanly speaking, the falling of the book into the water was quite accidental; but Almighty God made use of this circuмstance to put in the way of salvation one who had been invincibly ignorant, and who had not acted against his conscience.

    There is a young lady. Her parents profess no religion. They never go to church. They never speak of religion at home, but take care that their daughter may not become acquainted with wicked companions. So she remains naturally good and innocent. To give her a good education, they place her in a Catholic institution. There she becomes acquainted with Catholic companions, with Catholic devotions, ceremonies, with the service of the Church, etc. She is inquisitive, and wishes to know the meaning of everything that she sees and hears about Catholicity. She is pleased with the Catholic Church, and exclaims: "I never heard anything of the kind before." At last she becomes a Catholic. Here, education is the means which God uses to place on the road to heaven one who had been invincibly ignorant of the means of salvation, and had remained naturally good and innocent.

    Many similar instances could be quoted to show that Almighty God, in his goodness, uses natural ways and means to place invincibly ignorant souls, that live up to their conscience, in the way of salvation. This is the ordinary way of his divine Providence, viz., to lead men, by natural ways and means, to what is supernatural.

    (. . .)


    Quote
    (. . .)

    About these miraculous conversions Dr. O. A. Brownson well remarks:—

    "That there may be persons in heretical and schismatical societies, invincibly ignorant of the Church, who so perfectly correspond to the graces they receive, that Almighty God will, by extraordinary means, bring them to the Church, is believable and perfectly compatible with the known order of his grace, as is evinced by two beautiful examples recorded in Holy Scripture. The one is that of the eunuch of Candice, Queen of Ethiopia: he, following the lights that God gave him, though living at a great distance from Jerusalem, became acquainted with the worship of the true God, and was accustomed to go from time to time to Jerusalem to adore him. When, however, the Gospel began to be published, the Jєωιѕн religion could no longer save him; but being well disposed, by fidelity to the graces he had hitherto received, he was not forsaken by Almighty God; for when he was returning to his own country from Jerusalem, the Lord sent a message by an angel to St. Philip to meet and instruct him in the faith of Christ, and baptize him (Acts, viii. 26). The other example is that of Cornelius, who was an officer of the Roman army of the Italic band, and brought up in idolatry. In the course of events, his regiment coming to Judea, he saw there a religion different from his own,—the worship of one only God. Grace moving his heart, he believed in this God, and following the further notion's of divine grace, he gave much alms to the poor, and prayed earnestly to this God to direct him what to do. Did God abandon him? By no means; he sent an angel from heaven to tell him to whom to apply in order to be fully instructed in the knowledge and faith of Jesus Christ, and to be received into his Church by baptism. Now, what God did in these two cases he is no less able to do in all others, and has a thousand ways in his wisdom to conduct souls who are truly in earnest to the knowledge of the truth, and to salvation. And though such a soul were in the remotest wilds of the world, God could send a Philip, or an angel from heaven, to instruct him, or, by the superabundance of his internal grace, or by numberless other ways unknown to us, could infuse into his soul the knowledge of the truth. The great affair is, that we carefully do our part in complying with what he gives us; for of this we are certain, that, if we be not wanting to him, he will never be wanting to us, but, as he begins the good work in us, will also perfect it, if we be careful to correspond and to put no hindrance to his designs.

    "However, in all the instances of extraordinary or miraculous intervention of Almighty God, whether in the order of nature, or in the order of grace known to us, he has intervened ad Ecclesiam, and there is not a shadow of authority for supposing that he ever has miraculously intervened or ever will intervene otherwise. To assume that he will, under any circuмstances, intervene to save men without the medium ordinarium, (the Church) is perfectly gratuitous, to say the least. To bring men in an extraordinary manner to the Church is easily admissible, because it does not dispense with the revealed economy of salvation, nor imply its inadequacy, but to intervene to save them without it appears to us to dispense with it, and to imply that it is not adequate to the salvation of all whom God's goodness leads him to save. That those in societies alien to the Church, invincibly ignorant of the Church, if they correspond to the graces they receive, and persevere, will be saved, we do not doubt, but not where they are, or without being brought to the Church. They are sheep in the prescience of God, Catholics, but sheep not yet gathered into the fold. "Other sheep I have," says our Blessed Lord, "that are not of this fold; them also I must bring; they shall hear my voice; and there shall be made one fold and one shepherd." This is conclusive, and that these must be brought, and enter the fold, which is the Church, in this life, as St. Augustine expressly teaches."



    Quote
    (. . .)

    Let us mark well: To assert that acts of divine faith, hope, and charity are possible out of the Catholic Church is a direct denial of the article of faith: There is positively no salvation out of the Catholic Church; for, on account of these acts, God unites himself with the soul in time and eternity. If these acts, then, were possible out of the Catholic Church, there would be salvation out of the Catholic Church, to say which is a direct denial of the above article of faith, and therefore the assertion is heretical.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Do Protestants Have Faith?
    « Reply #21 on: May 31, 2021, 01:54:35 PM »
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  • Xavier,

    Souls invincibly ignorant of our religion and yet maintain the moral law, God will send the means necessary for their salvation. They will not remain in their ignorance, and furthermore they will be brought into the Church. They will cease to be what they are, the Jєω will cease to be a Jєω, the Protestant will cease to be a Protestant, etc.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Do Protestants Have Faith?
    « Reply #22 on: May 31, 2021, 09:14:20 PM »
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  • Ahh, but this is the error of naturalism and/or empiricism.  You are saying supernatural truths only come through natural means.  You are denying (not you, but your argument) that a baptized person, in the state of grace, cannot be be given spiritual insights about the Church.  Or that God cannot give such a person spiritual dreams, or even visions.  You’re denying the counsels of the guardian angel/conscience.  You’re denying the inspirations of the Holy Ghost.  
    .
    All of this is possible to those in the state of grace.  Heck, these things can happen to those who aren’t even baptized (as is proved by multiple, multiple miraculous accounts of conversions of modern day Muslims).
    .
    In short, you are denying the salvific influence of grace and of Divine Providence.  You limit God’s power and workings to mere human understanding/operations. History is FILLED with conversions which prove your lack of Faith.
    I didn't say anything along the lines of "can't".


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do Protestants Have Faith?
    « Reply #23 on: May 31, 2021, 10:31:28 PM »
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  • Quote
    But I would believe his salvation would be possible, provided he would be willing to believe the truth if it was presented to him,

    This statement presumes that the truth was (or may not be) presented to him.  If we truly believe the infallible scripture that "God wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth", then that means that ALL men ARE 100% presented with the truth, in some way, even if not perceptible to human understanding, measurement, proof or knowledge.
    .
    Further, St John tells us in Scripture that Jesus is "the True Light which enlightens every man that comes into the world."
    .
    Thus, there is no such thing as invincible ignorance.  Such an idea is heresy.
    .

    Quote
    I didn't say anything along the lines of "can't".

    The fact that you explained the idea of truth being presented to an individual as an "if" or a "possibility" means you logically think that it might not/cannot happen.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do Protestants Have Faith?
    « Reply #24 on: May 31, 2021, 10:39:58 PM »
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  • If invincible ignorance exists, then how does it not apply to infants, either aborted or not?  Yet, the Church holds that unbaptized infants go to Limbo and not heaven.  But an unbaptized adult, who (as Scripture infallibly tells us) falls AT LEAST 7 times a day (assuming he's "somehow" a just man, that means just venial sins...that's a big assumption), he can be saved?  
    .
    So an unbaptized infant, who has no sins on his soul, and is totally ignorant of anything and everything, goes to Limbo.  But an unbaptized, "good willed" adult, who has sinned at least 7x a day, for his entire life, gets to go to heaven?
    .
    Then we have protestants, who don't follow the 10 commandments (i.e. they sin mortally, as "allowed" by their false religion), they deny multiple articles of Faith, they make up the rules to their religion...but they also can go to heaven, but not an unbaptized infant?
    .
    Makes no sense.

    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Do Protestants Have Faith?
    « Reply #25 on: May 31, 2021, 10:56:08 PM »
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  • If invincible ignorance exists, then how does it not apply to infants, either aborted or not?  Yet, the Church holds that unbaptized infants go to Limbo and not heaven.  But an unbaptized adult, who (as Scripture infallibly tells us) falls AT LEAST 7 times a day (assuming he's "somehow" a just man, that means just venial sins...that's a big assumption), he can be saved?  
    .
    So an unbaptized infant, who has no sins on his soul, and is totally ignorant of anything and everything, goes to Limbo.  But an unbaptized, "good willed" adult, who has sinned at least 7x a day, for his entire life, gets to go to heaven?
    .
    Then we have protestants, who don't follow the 10 commandments (i.e. they sin mortally, as "allowed" by their false religion), they deny multiple articles of Faith, they make up the rules to their religion...but they also can go to heaven, but not an unbaptized infant?
    .
    Makes no sense.
    Proverbs 24:16?


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do Protestants Have Faith?
    « Reply #26 on: May 31, 2021, 11:24:41 PM »
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  • Yes, a just man (ie saintly) falls 7 times a day.  How much doth a sinner fall?  Yet an infant falls not at all, but still cannot gain heaven. 

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Do Protestants Have Faith?
    « Reply #27 on: June 01, 2021, 05:05:31 AM »
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  • Xavier,

    Souls invincibly ignorant of our religion and yet maintain the moral law, God will send the means necessary for their salvation. They will not remain in their ignorance, and furthermore they will be brought into the Church. They will cease to be what they are, the Jєω will cease to be a Jєω, the Protestant will cease to be a Protestant, etc.
    I disagree. Pope Pius IX teaches that what you posted above is "a very grave error". He teaches that these people who are ignorant of our religion have no hope because they are living in error and are alienated from the true faith. He teaches that "such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching". Souls invincibly ignorant of our religion will not maintain the moral law and will not be saved.

    OTOH, the same pope teaches there is hope for "those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion" - provided they live a life according to the moral law and it's precepts inscribed by God on all hearts.    

    The term "invincible ignorance" should be completely abandoned as it means those people who are incapable of thinking at all, such as those who are in some way brain injured.

    When speaking about the salvation of souls, the term invincible ignorance should be replaced with the correct term used by Pope Pius IX; "those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion".

    Quoanto Conficiamur Moerore
    On Promotion of False Doctrines
    Pope BI. Pius IX - 1863

    7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do Protestants Have Faith?
    « Reply #28 on: June 01, 2021, 06:05:23 AM »
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  • With regard to a person who is so isolated and befuddled that he knows only the bare basics, etc., as long as such a person has not embraced error, that person is actually a Catholic.  Let’s say you have an animist who is met by a Lutheran missionary.  That missionary teaches the basics of the Holy Trinity and Incarnation, then baptizes the person, who then dies.  That person died a Catholic, never having had time to embrace error.  The mistake, error, heresy of Xavier is to say that PROTESTANTS can be saved. No, only Catholics can be saved.  So, for instance, a baptized infant among the Orthodox who dies, dies a Catholic.  So there’s a radical difference between being Orthodox formally and being among the Orthodox materially.

    And here’s the key.  SINCERITY of belief has absolutely nothing to do with it.

    Material heresy is only possible among someone who formally has the Catholic faith.  So, a Catholic who holds a heresy unaware that it was condemned by the Church. As soon as the person is told, “that’s condemned as heresy by the Church,” he immediately rejects it for that reason alone, having the true formal motive.  That’s what St. Augustine defines as the litmus test for material heresy.  If a Prot were told that something is condemned by the Church, will he immediately reject the heresy?  Of course not ... because he has a false rule of faith.  In fact, most Prots REJECT things they hear are taught by the Church for that reason alone and hold Church teaching to be an anti-rule of faith.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do Protestants Have Faith?
    « Reply #29 on: June 01, 2021, 06:10:12 AM »
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  • Are there some living among the schismatics or Prots who are actually Catholics?  Yes, such as those baptized who haven’t reached the age of reason.  Are there some adults so ignorant that they’re practically in the same state?  Perhaps.  Only God knows.  But these are actually Catholics.  No Protestant or Orthodox per se can be saved.

    But the main error is to confuse sincerity of belief with material heresy.  Some Prot can sincerely believe that the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon, but regardless of how convinced he is about it, he lacks the faith.  If truly sincere, then God will convert him before he dies.