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Author Topic: Distorting Saint Thomas Aquinas on Baptism of Desire  (Read 10870 times)

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Offline JuanDiego

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Distorting Saint Thomas Aquinas on Baptism of Desire
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2013, 08:44:21 AM »
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  • I know this is just my experience but I thought I’d mention it because I definitely went through what you are talking about.  When I heard that the “Catholics believe that their Communion is actually the body and blood of Christ” from a friend I knew I had to investigate it because I had been praying for over a year “Whatever it takes Lord, reveal to me Your Will, because I will walk in it.”  I believed I was a Christian, because I had “accepted Christ as my Savior” and I prayed daily.  My pastor had said from the scriptures he believed that we needed to do the will of God on a daily basis, so that was why I was praying as I was.

    I went from one Protestant church to another and from the scriptures I had come to believe I should get baptized because of the John the Baptist passages.  I never heard that baptism was essential for salvation.  In fact, it was always taught that baptism was just doing what Christ did and was a nice thing to do, but it had no efficacy.  I eventually also prayed “Lord don’t you just have one Church” because there was such a variety of beliefs.  

    I was in a Protestant meditation group at the time, and the scripture that I came across was John 6 “if you don’t eat my flesh and drink my blood you will not have life in you.”  That is when someone in the meditation group said that is what the Catholic’s believe.  From then on it like I was in the “Twilight Zone” because I had never even considered that the Catholic Church was the true way.  Many of my friends believed the CC taught salvation by works, and every Catholic was going to hell because of that.  I must have had an open mind, because I didn’t believe that dogmatically.  However, I had considered it.  Once I started to look into the Church it was maybe a month before I was in the yellow pages looking for a Catholic Church to learn what to do to join.  It was hard to figure that out, and I had no Catholic friends.

    But the point I would like to make is that I talked to all my Protestant friends and there was NO ONE that wanted to join me going into the CC.  They all “believed in Christ” and even had missions to Burma to preach salvation to the lost, but all felt they had what they wanted and were satisfied that they didn’t have to belong to a certain church.  That is Protestant theology – you don’t have to belong to a certain church to be saved, and they didn’t believe I had to do that.  I was weird to them.

    So I have come to a very deep belief in “outside the Church there is no salvation”, and I don’t believe that anyone can be saved without Baptism.  Baptism by Desire to me has to mean that they are already convinced of that truth, but die before being able to get into the Church.  I certainly felt scared when I was in RCIA because it took so long, and I had read in the catechism that outside the church a person could not save their soul.  Easter was too far off in my thinking, but God kept me alive, and I did finally get baptized.

    How can my former friends be saved (they don’t believe baptism is essential for salvation) when they know I went into the Church but they refused because they were secure (?) in their belief system and refused to even consider it?


    Offline SJB

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    Distorting Saint Thomas Aquinas on Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #31 on: May 19, 2013, 11:47:29 AM »
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  • Quote
    First, any form of invincible ignorance that saves or contributes an excuse for someone to be saved by implicit faith ALSO has no basis in tradition. It is opposed to the Fathers, all the Saints, Doctors, and the Athanasian Creed.

    Nobody is saying invincible ignorance (or ignorance of any kind) saves. Certain breaches of the law are excused because of ignorance all the time. Perfect charity is what can justify a man.

    Do you believe sacramental confession is always necessary to recover grace? Surely, it is taught as necessary, yet there are distinctions to be made and these distinctions do not diminish it's necessity.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline SJB

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    Distorting Saint Thomas Aquinas on Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #32 on: May 19, 2013, 11:51:52 AM »
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  • Quote
    How can my former friends be saved (they don’t believe baptism is essential for salvation) when they know I went into the Church but they refused because they were secure (?) in their belief system and refused to even consider it?

    Nobody is saying everybody is saved. There is no exception to the dogma, outside the Church there is no salvation. It is just possible that there are persons within the Church without being formal members.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Stubborn

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    Distorting Saint Thomas Aquinas on Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #33 on: May 19, 2013, 01:32:32 PM »
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  • Quote from: JuanDiego


    So I have come to a very deep belief in “outside the Church there is no salvation”, and I don’t believe that anyone can be saved without Baptism.  Baptism by Desire to me has to mean that they are already convinced of that truth, but die before being able to get into the Church.  I certainly felt scared when I was in RCIA because it took so long, and I had read in the catechism that outside the church a person could not save their soul.  Easter was too far off in my thinking, but God kept me alive, and I did finally get baptized.


    Juan, thank you for your story!

    I understand being anxious for sure and there are a number of very good reasons for you - and pretty much all converts to think that way, but as far as being a catechumen and dying before you may have gotten baptized is concerned, that is a fallacy story told and used by those who are trying to weasel a way around the dogma and into heaven without the sacrament - and nothing more.

    If you or anyone is sincere in their desire to come into the Church and become Catholic, then God will not take you before you get baptized - not ever, not in a zillion years. Were it any other way, I would keep looking for the truth rather than devote my efforts to keep a faith where it's God would snatch me before I could receive the most necessary requirement for salvation.

    But again, I certainly understand felling scared - I am guessing that most catechumens feel the same way.



    Quote from: JuanDiego

    How can my former friends be saved (they don’t believe baptism is essential for salvation) when they know I went into the Church but they refused because they were secure (?) in their belief system and refused to even consider it?


    Your former friends need to accept the graces God offers, just as you have.  Just as all who are in the Church have.

    In the chapter on Predestination and Divine Election, Fr. Wathen puts it like this:

    "Those who say there is salvation outside the Church (no matter how they say it) do not comprehend that those who are in the Church have been brought into it by the Father, through Christ the Savior, in fulfillment of His eternal design to save them. The only reason that God does not succeed in getting others into the Church must be found in the reluctant will of those who do not enter it. If God can arrange for you to be in the Church, by the very same Providence He can arrange for anyone else who desires or is willing to enter it. There is absolutely no obstacle to the invincible God's achieving His designs,
    except the intractable wills of His children."



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline bowler

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    Distorting Saint Thomas Aquinas on Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #34 on: May 19, 2013, 03:13:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote
    First, any form of invincible ignorance that saves or contributes an excuse for someone to be saved by implicit faith ALSO has no basis in tradition. It is opposed to the Fathers, all the Saints, Doctors, and the Athanasian Creed.

    Nobody is saying invincible ignorance (or ignorance of any kind) saves. Certain breaches of the law are excused because of ignorance all the time. Perfect charity is what can justify a man.

    .


    You didn't quote everything I wrote. You are now saying that perfect charity saves someone who has no desire to be a Catholic?

    That would be salvation by implicit faith# 3 below.

    First, any form of invincible ignorance that saves or contributes an excuse for someone to be saved by implicit faith ALSO has no basis in tradition. It is opposed to the Fathers, all the Saints, Doctors, and the Athanasian Creed.

    Secondly, you will find that there are three types of implicit faith being taught, one like you say only applies to the invincible ignorant as in the "native on a Island" that no missionary can reach. The second is the invincible ignorant as in a person, say a Jєω, who is living among Catholics all his life, but was invincible ignorant of the faith. And the third type of implicit faith you will find that the expounders no longer mention any invisible ignorant.
    What I wrote is 100% correct, it is the way it is, if you are a traditionalist on this matter.

    Quote from: SJB
    Do you believe sacramental confession is always necessary to recover grace? Surely, it is taught as necessary, yet there are distinctions to be made and these distinctions do not diminish it's necessity.


    What you are describing is called a perfect act of contrition, and it is defined dogmatically to the last detail in the Council of Trent. That is why I believe it.

    Your belief about implicit faith is just that, yours? Not even you know what you believe.


    Offline SJB

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    Distorting Saint Thomas Aquinas on Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #35 on: May 19, 2013, 08:26:50 PM »
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  • Quote
    You didn't quote everything I wrote. You are now saying that perfect charity saves someone who has no desire to be a Catholic?

    I didn't say that at all. I said if one has perfect charity, they want to do whatever is necessary to please God. Your only defense is to say this person simply does not and cannot exist.

    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline SJB

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    Distorting Saint Thomas Aquinas on Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #36 on: May 19, 2013, 08:31:07 PM »
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    In the chapter on Predestination and Divine Election, Fr. Wathen puts it like this:

    "Those who say there is salvation outside the Church (no matter how they say it) do not comprehend that those who are in the Church have been brought into it by the Father, through Christ the Savior, in fulfillment of His eternal design to save them. The only reason that God does not succeed in getting others into the Church must be found in the reluctant will of those who do not enter it. If God can arrange for you to be in the Church, by the very same Providence He can arrange for anyone else who desires or is willing to enter it. There is absolutely no obstacle to the invincible God's achieving His designs, except the intractable wills of His children."

    There is no salvation outside the Church. That is dogma. Define what "within the Church means."
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline bowler

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    Distorting Saint Thomas Aquinas on Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #37 on: May 19, 2013, 09:57:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote
    You didn't quote everything I wrote. You are now saying that perfect charity saves someone who has no desire to be a Catholic?

    I didn't say that at all. I said if one has perfect charity, they want to do whatever is necessary to please God. Your only defense is to say this person simply does not and cannot exist.



    And what exactly is necessary to please God?


    Offline SJB

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    Distorting Saint Thomas Aquinas on Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #38 on: May 20, 2013, 04:28:01 AM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: SJB
    Quote
    You didn't quote everything I wrote. You are now saying that perfect charity saves someone who has no desire to be a Catholic?

    I didn't say that at all. I said if one has perfect charity, they want to do whatever is necessary to please God. Your only defense is to say this person simply does not and cannot exist.



    And what exactly is necessary to please God?

    Obeying the natural law, which is written on the hearts of all men, and whatever else that when they know it, they do it. Pius IX said this very thing:

    Quote from: QUANTO CONFICIAMUR MOERORE, Pope Pius IX
    7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

    8. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom "the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior."[4] The words of Christ are clear enough: "If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;"[5] "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;"[6] "He who does not believe will be condemned;"[7] "He who does not believe is already condemned;"[8] "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."[9] The Apostle Paul says that such persons are "perverted and self-condemned;"[10] the Prince of the Apostles calls them "false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction."[11]
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline bowler

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    Distorting Saint Thomas Aquinas on Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #39 on: May 20, 2013, 08:41:32 AM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: SJB
    Quote
    You didn't quote everything I wrote. You are now saying that perfect charity saves someone who has no desire to be a Catholic?

    I didn't say that at all. I said if one has perfect charity, they want to do whatever is necessary to please God. Your only defense is to say this person simply does not and cannot exist.



    And what exactly is necessary to please God?

    Obeying the natural law, which is written on the hearts of all men, and whatever else that when they know it, they do it. ]


    So you believe that perfect charity is wanting to obey the natural law written on the hearts of all men "and whatever else that when they know it, they do it". You believe that a person can be saved by that.

    "That" is a novelty never taught by any Father, Father, Doctor, Council, and goes against the Athanasian Creed, UNLESS, the "and whatever else that when they know it, they do it", means that they explicitly desire to be want to be Catholics, and believe in the Holy Trinity and Christ. If not, then you believe in salvation by Implict Faith, what you complained about initially in this discussion that:


    Quote
    The point of the video (and the point of this thread is the video),  is the theory of implicit faith, the belief that someone can be saved who does not want to be baptized, nor be a Catholic, nor martyred for the Faith, nor has any belief in Christ and the Trinity.




    Offline SJB

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    Distorting Saint Thomas Aquinas on Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #40 on: May 20, 2013, 09:37:46 AM »
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    So you believe that perfect charity is wanting to obey the natural law written on the hearts of all men "and whatever else that when they know it, they do it". You believe that a person can be saved by that.

    No, they obey the natural law; there is no just "wanting to obey."

    Nobody is saved without supernatural faith. Nobody is saved outside the Church.

    I hold to the majority opinion that explicit faith is required, but the minority opinion is not condemned.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline Clancularius

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    Distorting Saint Thomas Aquinas on Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #41 on: May 20, 2013, 05:33:54 PM »
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  • I couldn't stomach watching the whole video....I found the man's personality very annoying.

    Maybe he covered this, but for the sake of putting it in print, here is something else St. Thomas wrote in his Summa that is very significant:

    "It is said of Cornelius, while yet an unbeliever, that his alms were acceptable to God. Therefore not every action of an unbeliever is a sin, but some of his actions are good...he had implicit faith, as the truth of the Gospel was not yet made manifest..."

    "before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit..."

    Feeneyites will probably barely glance upon these and turn there heads to reject them before even spending time comprehending what they read. The fact is, these have been in the Summa without any historical objection. Catholics throughout the Church simply have read and believed it for hundreds of years. The DIVINE Church has promoted it, and allowed it for hundreds of years throughout the whole Church. Impossible that it could be contrary to any dogma...therefore in conformity with all truth.

    Offline bowler

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    Distorting Saint Thomas Aquinas on Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #42 on: May 20, 2013, 07:51:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: Clancularius
    I couldn't stomach watching the whole video....I found the man's personality very annoying.

    Maybe he covered this, but for the sake of putting it in print, here is something else St. Thomas wrote in his Summa that is very significant:

    "It is said of Cornelius, while yet an unbeliever, that his alms were acceptable to God. Therefore not every action of an unbeliever is a sin, but some of his actions are good...he had implicit faith, as the truth of the Gospel was not yet made manifest..."

    "before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit..."

    Feeneyites will probably barely glance upon these and turn there heads to reject them before even spending time comprehending what they read. The fact is, these have been in the Summa without any historical objection. Catholics throughout the Church simply have read and believed it for hundreds of years. The DIVINE Church has promoted it, and allowed it for hundreds of years throughout the whole Church. Impossible that it could be contrary to any dogma...therefore in conformity with all truth.


    Are you saying that St. Thomas taught what you believe, implicit faith, that a person can be saved who has no desire to be a Catholic, or be baptized, or martyred for Christ, nor a belief in the Trinity and Christ?

    Offline bowler

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    Distorting Saint Thomas Aquinas on Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #43 on: May 20, 2013, 08:06:19 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB


    I hold to the majority opinion that explicit faith is required, but the minority opinion is not condemned.


    The minority opinion during the time of St. Alphonsus, is now the majority opinion, for like 99% of Catholics. That is the problem, and not the restrictive theory of explicit desire to be a Catholic, nor the even more restrictive theory of baptism of blood.

    You have a big hole in both theories though, for in both cases those persons are not part of the Body of the Church, they are objectively outside of the Church, and therefore the proponents are forced to create a metaphorical "Catholic Church" to which they belong, in order to get around EENS.  

    In the case of Implicit Faith, they have the faith only by a metaphor, and they are in some metaphorical "Catholic Church".

    You expect me to believe metaphors, and to disregard clear dogmas like this:

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, 1441, ex cathedra:

    The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church , not only pagans but also Jєωs or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody  can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.
     

    Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, …

     
    Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
    “For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.”

    Council of Trent. Seventh Session. March, 1547. Decree on the Sacraments.
    On Baptism

    Canon 2. If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of our Lord Jesus Christ: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5), are distorted into some metaphor: let him be anathema.

    Canon 5. If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema


    Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943: “Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith.”

    Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei (# 43), Nov. 20, 1947: “In the same
    way, actually that baptism is the distinctive mark of all
    Christians, and serves to differentiate them from those who have not been cleansed in this purifying stream and
    consequently are not members of Christ
    , the sacrament of holy
    orders sets the priest apart from the rest of the faithful who
    have not received this consecration.”





    Offline MyrnaM

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    Distorting Saint Thomas Aquinas on Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #44 on: May 20, 2013, 08:20:41 PM »
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  • Everyone who dies in the state of Sanctifying grace saves their soul.
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/