Author Topic: Distorting Saint Thomas Aquinas on Baptism of Desire (Read 10868 times)

Matto · « **Reply #15 on:** May 15, 2013, 01:20:45 PM »

Quote from: Napoli

There may be some non catholics in Heaven. But, I wouldn't suggest taking that chance. It's foolhardy and presumptuous to rely on that.

Of course there are non-Catholics in heaven; all of the just who died before Christ founded the Catholic Church were saved without being Catholic.

Alcuin · « **Reply #16 on:** May 17, 2013, 08:19:19 PM »

Quote from: bowler

The person in the video is talking about implicit faith, the belief that someone can be saved who does not want to be baptized, nor be a Catholic, nor martyred for the Faith, nor has any belief in Christ and the Trinity.

The theory of Implicit Faith goes against ALL of the Church Fathers and Doctors, the Athanasian Creed, St. Thomas Aquinas, the Council of Trent, the Catechism of Trent (and much more). It is a novel teaching with no basis in tradition. It has NOTHING to do with baptism of blood, or baptism of desire of the Fathers, the Athanasian Creed, St. Thomas Aquinas, the Council of Trent, the Catechism of Trent (and much more)!

The person in the video makes a big point of saying that that the real theory of baptism of desire (which he does not believe) was a harmless theory since it was so restrictive. He is focusing his entire presentation on the theory of Implicit Faith. So what is the point of discussing St. Thomas Aquinas? He didn't teach Implicit Faith. The person correctly states over and over that the restrictive theory of baptism of desire of St. Thomas is a harmless theory.

The same goes for the theory of baptism of blood. Those two theories as taught in some quotes from the Fathers and Saint Thomas Aquinas and the Thomists were harmless theories since they were so restrictive.

Personally, I have never known anyone with a relative or that knew of any catechumen that died before he could be baptized. And as far as baptism of desire, there are no quotes about a martyred catechumen saint in the last 1700+ years. Very restrictive theories.

The point of the video (and the point of this thread is the video), is the theory of implicit faith, the belief that someone can be saved who does not want to be baptized, nor be a Catholic, nor martyred for the Faith, nor has any belief in Christ and the Trinity.

Thank you bowler for attempting to get this thread back on track here.

I could also add that the distorted theory as discussed in the video is believed by 99.99% of people nowadays. So much for following canonized doctors of the Church!

SJB · « **Reply #17 on:** May 18, 2013, 06:56:49 AM »

Quote

The point of the video (and the point of this thread is the video), is the theory of implicit faith, the belief that someone can be saved who does not want to be baptized, nor be a Catholic, nor martyred for the Faith, nor has any belief in Christ and the Trinity.

You need to honestly represent things and implicit faith isn't this at all. You are trying to say, wrongly, that ignorance is assumed to be not wanting these things.

As pope Pius IX stated, there are those who are "Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives" and these will be led by His light to salvation. In other words they will be cared for by Almighty God, and you will not be informed as to the details.

Pius IX said this immediately after he affirmed the teaching that there can be no salvation outside the Church.

Alcuin · « **Reply #18 on:** May 18, 2013, 08:44:39 AM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote
The point of the video (and the point of this thread is the video), is the theory of implicit faith, the belief that someone can be saved who does not want to be baptized, nor be a Catholic, nor martyred for the Faith, nor has any belief in Christ and the Trinity.

You need to honestly represent things and implicit faith isn't this at all. You are trying to say, wrongly, that ignorance is assumed to be not wanting these things.

As pope Pius IX stated, there are those who are "Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives" and these will be led by His light to salvation. In other words they will be cared for by Almighty God, and you will not be informed as to the details.

Pius IX said this immediately after he affirmed the teaching that there can be no salvation outside the Church.

So you believe that a pagan, a Jєω, a Muslim - one who doesn't believe in Christ could be inside the Church and saved?

That is certainly a distortion of St. Thomas if you are going to refer to this theory as baptism of desire.

saintbosco13 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 18, 2013, 12:51:51 PM »

Quote from: Alcuin

Quote from: SJB
Quote
The point of the video (and the point of this thread is the video), is the theory of implicit faith, the belief that someone can be saved who does not want to be baptized, nor be a Catholic, nor martyred for the Faith, nor has any belief in Christ and the Trinity.

You need to honestly represent things and implicit faith isn't this at all. You are trying to say, wrongly, that ignorance is assumed to be not wanting these things.

As pope Pius IX stated, there are those who are "Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives" and these will be led by His light to salvation. In other words they will be cared for by Almighty God, and you will not be informed as to the details.

Pius IX said this immediately after he affirmed the teaching that there can be no salvation outside the Church.

So you believe that a pagan, a Jєω, a Muslim - one who doesn't believe in Christ could be inside the Church and saved?

That is certainly a distortion of St. Thomas if you are going to refer to this theory as baptism of desire.

Again, St. Pope Pius X stated in his Catechism of Christian Doctrine, "A person outside the Church by his own fault, and who dies without perfect contrition, will not be saved. But he who finds himself outside without fault of his own, and who lives a good life, can be saved by the love called charity, which unites unto God, and in a spiritual way also to the Church, that is, to the soul of the Church."

This was said by a Pope who is also a Saint and also incorrupt. Do you believe what Popes say or not??

MyrnaM · « **Reply #20 on:** May 18, 2013, 01:11:49 PM »

Quote from: Matto

Quote from: Napoli
There may be some non catholics in Heaven. But, I wouldn't suggest taking that chance. It's foolhardy and presumptuous to rely on that.

Of course there are non-Catholics in heaven; all of the just who died before Christ founded the Catholic Church were saved without being Catholic.

Your right if you know you are taking a chance, you already had your chance, only through prayers of others might you get another chance. Presumptuous is a grave sin against the Holy Ghost.

There are degrees of Heaven, and Hell, we don't know all the answers.

Just a guess of mine :scratchchin: but there even might be a Heaven of sorts without the Beatific Vision for souls who lived according to their conscience but never heard of the Catholic church, especially today when the Catholic Church is in eclipse. :idea: :confused1: Before certain teaching were revealed and declared true, living saints wondered and thought about such things.

It says in the Bible that we don't know everything. All we really have to know is that God is Just, Mercyful, Loving and Fearful.

Matto · « **Reply #21 on:** May 18, 2013, 02:20:36 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Just a guess of mine :scratchchin: but there even might be a Heaven of sorts without the Beatific Vision for souls who lived according to their conscience but never heard of the Catholic church, especially today when the Catholic Church is in eclipse.

Myrna, I think you are referring to Limbo. For those who die in original sin alone without any mortal sin on their soul as souls would who lived by their conscience faithfully, they would go to Limbo as described in Dante's Divine Comedy and elsewhere.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #22 on:** May 18, 2013, 04:27:47 PM »

Quote from: Matto

Quote from: MyrnaM
Just a guess of mine :scratchchin: but there even might be a Heaven of sorts without the Beatific Vision for souls who lived according to their conscience but never heard of the Catholic church, especially today when the Catholic Church is in eclipse.

Myrna, I think you are referring to Limbo. For those who die in original sin alone without any mortal sin on their soul as souls would who lived by their conscience faithfully, they would go to Limbo as described in Dante's Divine Comedy and elsewhere.

This is why it is so wrong to say they are all damned or condemned to Hell.

Such a soul as above is not condemned, they might not ever see the Beatific Vision but they are not damned either.

Actually when I was in Catholic School, a loooong time ago, I remember the nuns saying that theologians even speculated that such souls will be given a test at the end of time and might earn Heaven as we know it. Of course that is just a theory and not a teaching of the Church. The reason being they were never condemned as souls who die an enemy of God, (mortal sin).

Matto · « **Reply #23 on:** May 18, 2013, 04:33:51 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

This is why it is so wrong to say they are all damned or condemned to Hell.

Such a soul as above is not condemned, they might not ever see the Beatific Vision but they are not damned either.

Limbo is a part of Hell, so you can say that those in Limbo are damned. But at the same time, they say that the souls in Limbo do not suffer, so you could say that they are not damned too. Either way is fine, I guess.

Alcuin · « **Reply #24 on:** May 18, 2013, 07:29:50 PM »

Quote from: saintbosco13

Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: SJB
Quote
The point of the video (and the point of this thread is the video), is the theory of implicit faith, the belief that someone can be saved who does not want to be baptized, nor be a Catholic, nor martyred for the Faith, nor has any belief in Christ and the Trinity.

You need to honestly represent things and implicit faith isn't this at all. You are trying to say, wrongly, that ignorance is assumed to be not wanting these things.

As pope Pius IX stated, there are those who are "Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives" and these will be led by His light to salvation. In other words they will be cared for by Almighty God, and you will not be informed as to the details.

Pius IX said this immediately after he affirmed the teaching that there can be no salvation outside the Church.

So you believe that a pagan, a Jєω, a Muslim - one who doesn't believe in Christ could be inside the Church and saved?

That is certainly a distortion of St. Thomas if you are going to refer to this theory as baptism of desire.

Again, St. Pope Pius X stated in his Catechism of Christian Doctrine, "A person outside the Church by his own fault, and who dies without perfect contrition, will not be saved. But he who finds himself outside without fault of his own, and who lives a good life, can be saved by the love called charity, which unites unto God, and in a spiritual way also to the Church, that is, to the soul of the Church."

This was said by a Pope who is also a Saint and also incorrupt. Do you believe what Popes say or not??

Well that contradicts St. Thomas' teaching on the subject. Which one is correct?

Stubborn · « **Reply #25 on:** May 18, 2013, 08:47:02 PM »

Quote from: Alcuin

Quote from: saintbosco13
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: SJB
Quote
The point of the video (and the point of this thread is the video), is the theory of implicit faith, the belief that someone can be saved who does not want to be baptized, nor be a Catholic, nor martyred for the Faith, nor has any belief in Christ and the Trinity.

You need to honestly represent things and implicit faith isn't this at all. You are trying to say, wrongly, that ignorance is assumed to be not wanting these things.

As pope Pius IX stated, there are those who are "Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives" and these will be led by His light to salvation. In other words they will be cared for by Almighty God, and you will not be informed as to the details.

Pius IX said this immediately after he affirmed the teaching that there can be no salvation outside the Church.

So you believe that a pagan, a Jєω, a Muslim - one who doesn't believe in Christ could be inside the Church and saved?

That is certainly a distortion of St. Thomas if you are going to refer to this theory as baptism of desire.

Again, St. Pope Pius X stated in his Catechism of Christian Doctrine, "A person outside the Church by his own fault, and who dies without perfect contrition, will not be saved. But he who finds himself outside without fault of his own, and who lives a good life, can be saved by the love called charity, which unites unto God, and in a spiritual way also to the Church, that is, to the soul of the Church."

This was said by a Pope who is also a Saint and also incorrupt. Do you believe what Popes say or not??

Well that contradicts St. Thomas' teaching on the subject. Which one is correct?

Once again, what SB13 wrote is not what the catechism says.

29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.

Contrary to SB13's misquote, note the catechism of St, Pius X teaches that the person, even if he *is* in good faith; 1) has not died, therefore 2) has not been rewarded salvation, 3) is indeed separated from the Church, 4) is on the way of salvation.

Note that the catechism of St. Pius X does not teach that the man "can be saved by the love called charity" - whatever that means.

SJB · « **Reply #26 on:** May 18, 2013, 08:51:15 PM »

Quote from: saintbosco13

Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: SJB
Quote
The point of the video (and the point of this thread is the video), is the theory of implicit faith, the belief that someone can be saved who does not want to be baptized, nor be a Catholic, nor martyred for the Faith, nor has any belief in Christ and the Trinity.

You need to honestly represent things and implicit faith isn't this at all. You are trying to say, wrongly, that ignorance is assumed to be not wanting these things.

As pope Pius IX stated, there are those who are "Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives" and these will be led by His light to salvation. In other words they will be cared for by Almighty God, and you will not be informed as to the details.

Pius IX said this immediately after he affirmed the teaching that there can be no salvation outside the Church.

So you believe that a pagan, a Jєω, a Muslim - one who doesn't believe in Christ could be inside the Church and saved?

That is certainly a distortion of St. Thomas if you are going to refer to this theory as baptism of desire.

Again, St. Pope Pius X stated in his Catechism of Christian Doctrine, "A person outside the Church by his own fault, and who dies without perfect contrition, will not be saved. But he who finds himself outside without fault of his own, and who lives a good life, can be saved by the love called charity, which unites unto God, and in a spiritual way also to the Church, that is, to the soul of the Church."

This was said by a Pope who is also a Saint and also incorrupt. Do you believe what Popes say or not??

Anybody who is truly outside the Church is lost, just like those outside the ark were drowned. The dogma is outside the Church there is no salvation, so we mustn't wreck the dogma when explaining it.

saintbosco13 · « **Reply #27 on:** May 18, 2013, 11:20:01 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: saintbosco13
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: SJB
Quote
The point of the video (and the point of this thread is the video), is the theory of implicit faith, the belief that someone can be saved who does not want to be baptized, nor be a Catholic, nor martyred for the Faith, nor has any belief in Christ and the Trinity.

You need to honestly represent things and implicit faith isn't this at all. You are trying to say, wrongly, that ignorance is assumed to be not wanting these things.

As pope Pius IX stated, there are those who are "Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives" and these will be led by His light to salvation. In other words they will be cared for by Almighty God, and you will not be informed as to the details.

Pius IX said this immediately after he affirmed the teaching that there can be no salvation outside the Church.

So you believe that a pagan, a Jєω, a Muslim - one who doesn't believe in Christ could be inside the Church and saved?

That is certainly a distortion of St. Thomas if you are going to refer to this theory as baptism of desire.

Again, St. Pope Pius X stated in his Catechism of Christian Doctrine, "A person outside the Church by his own fault, and who dies without perfect contrition, will not be saved. But he who finds himself outside without fault of his own, and who lives a good life, can be saved by the love called charity, which unites unto God, and in a spiritual way also to the Church, that is, to the soul of the Church."

This was said by a Pope who is also a Saint and also incorrupt. Do you believe what Popes say or not??

Well that contradicts St. Thomas' teaching on the subject. Which one is correct?

Once again, what SB13 wrote is not what the catechism says.

29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.

Contrary to SB13's misquote, note the catechism of St, Pius X teaches that the person, even if he *is* in good faith; 1) has not died, therefore 2) has not been rewarded salvation, 3) is indeed separated from the Church, 4) is on the way of salvation.

Note that the catechism of St. Pius X does not teach that the man "can be saved by the love called charity" - whatever that means.

I certainly did not misquote the catechism - there are plenty of references online for the quote I gave. And the quote you give has the same exact meaning as the one I gave!! You can try and twist it to whatever meaning you like - the meaning is very clear.

Stubborn · « **Reply #28 on:** May 19, 2013, 04:47:47 AM »

Quote from: saintbosco13

I certainly did not misquote the catechism - there are plenty of references online for the quote I gave. And the quote you give has the same exact meaning as the one I gave!! You can try and twist it to whatever meaning you like - the meaning is very clear.

Please continue posting the way you are since your posts effectively demonstrate the error of BOD.

Further, unlike your universal salvation idea about this matter, note that the answer I posted from the catechism supplies an explanation of what is meant by "through no fault of his".

A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his,that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.

"Through no fault of his" means he must be of good faith (wanting to become a member of the Church) AND he has been baptized or at least wants to be baptized AND he sincerely seeks the truth AND he strives to do God's will. After all this, by definition of the catechism, he is still outside of the Church and cannot be saved.
He is on the right road to entering the Church (on the way of salvation), but the catechism does not teach the person outside the Church is saved.

This means that it is the person's own fault if he is not of good faith - which means he is not even on the way of salvation if he has not been baptized AND does not desire to be baptized AND is not sincerely seeking the truth AND does not seek to do God's will. This person will remain outside of the Church and, by definition of the catechism, will not be saved.

bowler · « **Reply #29 on:** May 19, 2013, 07:05:50 AM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote
The point of the video (and the point of this thread is the video), is the theory of implicit faith, the belief that someone can be saved who does not want to be baptized, nor be a Catholic, nor martyred for the Faith, nor has any belief in Christ and the Trinity.

You need to honestly represent things and implicit faith isn't this at all. You are trying to say, wrongly, that ignorance is assumed to be not wanting these things.

As pope Pius IX stated, there are those who are "Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives" and these will be led by His light to salvation. In other words they will be cared for by Almighty God, and you will not be informed as to the details.

Pius IX said this immediately after he affirmed the teaching that there can be no salvation outside the Church.

First, any form of invincible ignorance that saves or contributes an excuse for someone to be saved by implicit faith ALSO has no basis in tradition. It is opposed to the Fathers, all the Saints, Doctors, and the Athanasian Creed.

Secondly, you will find that there are three types of implicit faith being taught, one like you say only applies to the invincible ignorant as in the "native on a Island" that no missionary can reach. The second is the invincible ignorant as in a person, say a Jєω, who is living among Catholics all his life, but was invincible ignorant of the faith. And the third type of implicit faith you will find that the expounders no longer mention any invisible ignorant.

What I wrote is 100% correct, it is the way it is, if you are a traditionalist on this matter.