Author Topic: Distorting Saint Thomas Aquinas on Baptism of Desire (Read 10874 times)

SJB · « **Reply #120 on:** June 09, 2013, 09:27:26 PM »

Quote from: Alcuin

Yes Fenton believed that one could be inside the Church without being a member (i.e. part) of the Church - at the end of the day he was just positing another exception to the defined dogma.

And people wonder how Vatican II happened.

The dogma admits no exceptions. Nobody outside the Church can be saved.

Binechi · « **Reply #121 on:** June 10, 2013, 05:39:02 PM »

Partially correct..

The fact that Fr. Feeney staunchly defended this truth on salvation during his day does not mean, of course, that everything he said on the topic was cogent or correct. He was, in fact, mistaken in his belief that catechumens could be justified (put in a state of grace) by the desire for water baptism. Fr. Feeney knew that the Catholic Church infallibly teaches that no catechumen can be saved without water baptism (Council of Trent, Can. 5 on the Sacrament), but he erroneously thought that the Council of Trent taught that catechumens could be justified by the desire for baptism, when it didn’t ( Sess. 6, Chap. 4.). This mistaken position – which most believe was held by him in good faith and which he would have changed if he were today presented with the evidence and the argument showing that Trent does not teach that catechumens can be justified – caused him to be unable to explain the situation of the so-called “justified” catechumen who hadn’t been baptized.

Father Feeney, Bread of Life, p. 137:

“Q. Can anyone now be saved without Baptism of Water?
A. No one can be saved without Baptism of Water.
Q. Are the souls of those who die in the state of justification saved, if they have not received Baptism of Water?
A. No. They are not saved.
Q. Where do these souls go if they die in the state of justification but have not received Baptism of Water?
A. I do not know.
Q. Do they go to Hell?
A. No.
Q. Do they go to Heaven?
A. No.
Q. Are there any such souls?
A. I do not know! Neither do you!
Q. What are we to say to those who believe there are such souls?
A. We must say to them that they are making reason prevail over Faith, and the laws of probability over the Providence of God.”

Fr. Feeney was caught in an insoluble dilemma because of his mistaken and incorrect position that a catechumen can be justified without water baptism. And the liberal heretics have a field day with this passage of his book, and they literally spill pages worth of ink gleefully pointing out that Fr. Feeney was inconsistent on this point.

SJB · « **Reply #122 on:** January 09, 2014, 08:45:12 PM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: SJB
Quote from: St. Alphonsus, Theology Manual, Bk. 6, no. 95., "Concerning Baptism"
"baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, de ####o non baptizato and of the Council of Trent.

1) This is erroneous, this theory described is not defide. If it was defide it would be the end of the argument.

2) If the person does not have the impression of the [baptismal] character, they are outside of the Church. That is why you are forced to invent a metaphorical church of some kind to which these people belong.

A little trip back in time is quite revealing ...

bowler · « **Reply #123 on:** January 09, 2014, 09:41:59 PM »

You heroin BODers strain a gnat and swallow a herd of camels. What do gnats like these you are knit-picking on matter when:

Quote from: bowler

Notice that the three threads that I started are about Heroin BOD, the belief that a person can be saved even if he has no explicit desire to be a Catholic, nor to be baptized (of course), nor belief in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity.

I've been doing only that for quite some time, and these people like SJB, Lover of Truth, and Ambrose who persist in arguing with me, understand very well that they ARE DEFENDING HEROIN BOD, for that is all that I am talking about. Make no mistake about it this is not about a catechumen or a martyr for the faith that they are defending.

They are defending the teaching that persons who practice ANY false "religion", can be saved even if they has no explicit desire to be a Catholic, nor explicit desire to be baptized , nor belief in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity.

That belief they are defending is not taught by one Father, Doctor or Saint, and is opposed to the Council and Catechism of Trent, and all the dogmatic decrees on EENS and the Sacrament of Baptism.

Ambrose · « **Reply #124 on:** January 10, 2014, 03:44:47 AM »

Quote from: bowler

You heroin BODers strain a gnat and swallow a herd of camels. What do gnats like these you are knit-picking on matter when:

Quote from: bowler
Notice that the three threads that I started are about Heroin BOD, the belief that a person can be saved even if he has no explicit desire to be a Catholic, nor to be baptized (of course), nor belief in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity.

I've been doing only that for quite some time, and these people like SJB, Lover of Truth, and Ambrose who persist in arguing with me, understand very well that they ARE DEFENDING HEROIN BOD, for that is all that I am talking about. Make no mistake about it this is not about a catechumen or a martyr for the faith that they are defending.

They are defending the teaching that persons who practice ANY false "religion", can be saved even if they has no explicit desire to be a Catholic, nor explicit desire to be baptized , nor belief in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity.

That belief they are defending is not taught by one Father, Doctor or Saint, and is opposed to the Council and Catechism of Trent, and all the dogmatic decrees on EENS and the Sacrament of Baptism.

Do you cut and paste your same quote for each thread? I wish Matthew would prohibit such infantile behavior.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #125 on:** January 10, 2014, 04:37:02 AM »

Quote from: bowler

You heroin BODers strain a gnat and swallow a herd of camels. What do gnats like these you are knit-picking on matter when:

It's nitpicking.

So is this. HAHAHAHA

.

bowler · « **Reply #126 on:** January 10, 2014, 12:42:43 PM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat

Quote from: bowler
You heroin BODers strain a gnat and swallow a herd of camels. What do gnats like these you are knit-picking on matter when:

It's nitpicking.

So is this. HAHAHAHA

.

Unlike the Heroin BODers, we learn something every day.

Thanks for the correction. Maybe I should call it gnatpicking?

bowler · « **Reply #127 on:** January 10, 2014, 12:47:20 PM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: bowler
You heroin BODers strain a gnat and swallow a herd of camels. What do gnats like these you are knit-picking on matter when:

Quote from: bowler
Notice that the three threads that I started are about Heroin BOD, the belief that a person can be saved even if he has no explicit desire to be a Catholic, nor to be baptized (of course), nor belief in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity.

I've been doing only that for quite some time, and these people like SJB, Lover of Truth, and Ambrose who persist in arguing with me, understand very well that they ARE DEFENDING HEROIN BOD, for that is all that I am talking about. Make no mistake about it this is not about a catechumen or a martyr for the faith that they are defending.

They are defending the teaching that persons who practice ANY false "religion", can be saved even if they has no explicit desire to be a Catholic, nor explicit desire to be baptized , nor belief in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity.

That belief they are defending is not taught by one Father, Doctor or Saint, and is opposed to the Council and Catechism of Trent, and all the dogmatic decrees on EENS and the Sacrament of Baptism.

Do you cut and paste your same quote for each thread? I wish Matthew would prohibit such infantile behavior.

It applies to practically everything you post on BOD, therefore, you'll keep seeing it till you confront the truth of it. You are gnatpicking, and beating around the bush by discussing catechumens and martyrs for the faith.