Author Topic: Direct Question for "bowler" (Read 5803 times)

bowler · « **Reply #30 on:** May 17, 2013, 08:17:25 AM »

Quote from: saintbosco13

Quote from: gooch
I asked my sspx priest if it was possible a non catholic , like a jew, greek orthodox can be saved, he said it's possible, is this what all sspx people believe? how can you be a rue catholic and believe this nonsense?

This priest was wrong. One must belong to the Catholic Church in some way, at the very least by implicit desire, in order to obtain salvation.

You believe a person can be saved who does not want to be baptized, or be a Catholic, or be a martyr for the Faith, and does not believe in the Trinity and Christ. You swallowed the camel already, that that "person somehow belongs to the Church" (Although he wants nothing to do with it and Christ!).

MyrnaM · « **Reply #31 on:** May 17, 2013, 08:30:19 AM »

Many people are confused because with the human eye it may look as if a dying person was not united to the True church. Example: Someone who is a known Protestant, or even atheist, or anywhere in-between. Now they lay dying somewhere, their last breath minutes away.

God for some unknown reason to us, allows this person the grace to accept the Holy Catholic Faith, for even angels can administer Sacraments, as in the angel of Portugal. We do not know what is happening in the soul of others, no matter what these people who deny God's mercy believe.

I am not saying this happens to every dying soul, but God knows who most deserves His mercy. This is why the Church has always taught not to judge anyone. We can not!

This SSPX priest may have meant that to another human being a particular soul may have appeared to be outside the Church, but in God's eye the soul was UNITED TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

You people who deny Baptism of Desire are totally WRONG!

You limit God in what He can do.

You judge people.

You deny His Mercy!

You put yourself in God's place.

You steer other people in the wrong direction, by instilling doubt in the mercy of God.

You destroy Hope.

Our Lady said, "most souls go to Hell because they have no one to pray for them" which clearly means if you pray for others God will allow His merciful grace, and He knows the time, the perfect time to infuse His grace into the soul of all of us.

Clancularius · « **Reply #32 on:** May 17, 2013, 09:11:10 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

You make no sense. Why not demonstrate that you are sincere by replying to the clear questions I asked with clear answers instead of inventing a false conclusion to your own ambiguous fantasy questions?

You say it makes no sense, and don't explain anything. Nice way of changing the subject.

Your rephrased question about can the Church rescind doctrinal decrees is a question that changes the subject. The obvious answer to your question is "no". I have answered all your questions.

Feeneyites see bad will and insincerity everywhere, unlike Our Lord and the Saints. I have conceded that your replacing my question with your own dogma was sufficient, and where I humbly concede, you accuse of insincerity. Really warped.

Stubborn, you answered "no" to the original question of this topic thread. You thereby agreed it was IMPOSSIBLE for the Church to define a dogma, and then later approve of catechisms for the laity and books for her clergy to learn from which calls into doubt that previously dogma AND for nobody in the Church to notice for hundreds of years. You said that was impossible.

Then you changed your answer to "yes" when you thought about the character of the Vatican II papal claimaints. This means either you don't think they are true popes after Vatican II, or you changed your original answer to "yes". Which is it?

Elizabeth · « **Reply #33 on:** May 17, 2013, 09:13:35 AM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

You destroy Hope.

Our Lady said, "most souls go to Hell because they have no one to pray for them" which clearly means if you pray for others God will allow His merciful grace, and He knows the time, the perfect time to infuse His grace into the soul of all of us.

Great post, Myrna.

bowler · « **Reply #34 on:** May 17, 2013, 12:02:27 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Many people are confused because with the human eye it may look as if a dying person was not united to the True church. Example: Someone who is a known Protestant, or even atheist, or anywhere in-between. Now they lay dying somewhere, their last breath minutes away.

God for some unknown reason to us, allows this person the grace to accept the Holy Catholic Faith, for even angels can administer Sacraments, as in the angel of Portugal. We do not know what is happening in the soul of others, no matter what these people who deny God's mercy believe.

I am not saying this happens to every dying soul, but God knows who most deserves His mercy. This is why the Church has always taught not to judge anyone. We can not!

This SSPX priest may have meant that to another human being a particular soul may have appeared to be outside the Church, but in God's eye the soul was UNITED TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

You people who deny Baptism of Desire are totally WRONG!

You limit God in what He can do.

You judge people.

You deny His Mercy!

You put yourself in God's place.

You steer other people in the wrong direction, by instilling doubt in the mercy of God.

You destroy Hope.

Our Lady said, "most souls go to Hell because they have no one to pray for them" which clearly means if you pray for others God will allow His merciful grace, and He knows the time, the perfect time to infuse His grace into the soul of all of us.

That was a totally Novus Ordo feelings oriented personal response with no basis in any tradition.

Speaking like that to a non-Catholic will do more harm than what you falsely accuse me of. Non-Catholics wiil die uncoverted because feelings oriented Novus Ordo people like you told them that they could save themselves. It is akin to what we hear all the time today when people are in their death bed, Oh, don't call the priest it'll scare her to death.

If a person dies with no desire to be baptized, nor a desire to be a Catholic, nor as a martyr for the true Faith, with no belief in or desire to believe in Christ and the Trinity, they are lost.

Catholics when interrogated, must answer that the Church preaches that all those who die outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and without a doubt shall perish into the everlasting fire (Words from a dogmatic decree on EENS. This is the Holy Ghost speaking!)
................................................................................

The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Blessed Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

“It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.

bowler · « **Reply #35 on:** May 17, 2013, 12:12:59 PM »

Quote from: Elizabeth

Quote from: MyrnaM

You destroy Hope.

Our Lady said, "most souls go to Hell because they have no one to pray for them" which clearly means if you pray for others God will allow His merciful grace, and He knows the time, the perfect time to infuse His grace into the soul of all of us.

Great post, Myrna.

That is why St. Paul said that women should keep silent. There are many great women in Church history, but none of them was feelings oriented like that. What Myrna wrote is nonsense. It has no basis in Catholicism. This is what happens after 50+ years of effeminacy in the Church, there are no men left to keep feelings oriented women from going the syrup or the despair extremems. Our Faith is not about extremes either syrup or despair. What the Church teaches is not against hope, it is not despair, AND it is also not syrup.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1552xavier4.html
From: Henry James Coleridge, ed., The Life and Letters of St. Francis Xavier, 2d Ed., 2 Vols., (London: Burns & Oates, 1890), Vol. II, pp. 331-350; reprinted in William H. McNeil and Mitsuko Iriye, eds., Modern Asia and Africa, Readings in World History Vol. 9, (New York: Oxford University Press, 1971), pp. 20-30.
St. Francis Xavier:
Letter from Japan, to the Society of Jesus in Europe, 1552

One of the things that most of all pains and torments these Japanese is, that we teach them that the prison of hell is irrevocably shut, so that there is no egress therefrom. For they grieve over the fate of their departed children, of their parents and relatives, and they often show their grief by their tears. So they ask us if there is any hope, any way to free them by prayer from that eternal misery, and I am obliged to answer that there is absolutely none. Their grief at this affects and torments them wonderfully; they almost pine away with sorrow. But there is this good thing about their trouble---it makes one hope that they will all be the more laborious for their own salvation, lest they like their forefathers, should be condemned to everlasting punishment. They often ask if God cannot take their fathers out of hell, and why their punishment must never have an end. We gave them a satisfactory answer, but they did not cease to grieve over the misfortune of their relatives; and I can hardly restrain my tears sometimes at seeing men so dear to my heart suffer such intense pain about a thing which is already done with and can never be undone.

bowler · « **Reply #36 on:** May 17, 2013, 12:19:20 PM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: saintbosco13
Quote from: gooch
I asked my sspx priest if it was possible a non catholic , like a jew, greek orthodox can be saved, he said it's possible, is this what all sspx people believe? how can you be a rue catholic and believe this nonsense?

This priest was wrong. One must belong to the Catholic Church in some way, at the very least by implicit desire, in order to obtain salvation.

You believe a person can be saved who does not want to be baptized, or be a Catholic, or be a martyr for the Faith, and does not believe in the Trinity and Christ. You swallowed the camel already, that that "person somehow belongs to the Church" (Although he wants nothing to do with it and Christ!).

cricket, cricket, cricket......

MyrnaM · « **Reply #37 on:** May 17, 2013, 01:38:39 PM »

Bower How dare you say Our Lady should be silent. No wonder you are drifting away from truth. I repeated what Our Lady said.

Not sure what your religion is but it doesn't sound Catholic.

When you can't answer a question you just shout nonsense yourself.

If I were Matthew I would forbid this subject on a Catholic forum, why; because people like you are causing doubt in the minds of some infant converts who might be swayed by your nonsense.

You make absolutely no sense.

You twist what others say.

You can't even answer a question, because you are too pride to admit you are wrong.

Quote

bower speaking --->
Speaking like that to a non-Catholic will do more harm than what you falsely accuse me of. Non-Catholics wiil die uncoverted because feelings oriented Novus Ordo people like you told them that they could save themselves. It is akin to what we hear all the time today when people are in their death bed, Oh, don't call the priest it'll scare her to death.

If a person dies with no desire to be baptized, nor a desire to be a Catholic, nor as a martyr for the true Faith, with no belief in or desire to believe in Christ and the Trinity, they are lost.

Who here is speaking of someone dying with no desire to be baptized???

Now you know everyone's desires too! What a fool!

The novus ordo is off on one extreme, that everyone is saved, and
You and your ilk are off on the opposite extreme, that there is no grace unless you have your card in your walled that says, " I am a Catholic, please call a priest"...

Stubborn · « **Reply #38 on:** May 17, 2013, 01:42:51 PM »

Quote from: Clancularius

Quote from: Stubborn
You make no sense. Why not demonstrate that you are sincere by replying to the clear questions I asked with clear answers instead of inventing a false conclusion to your own ambiguous fantasy questions?

You say it makes no sense, and don't explain anything. Nice way of changing the subject.

I said YOU make no sense - and you also prove you are bad willed by rejecting the truth when it is presented to you.

Quote from: Clancularius

Your rephrased question about can the Church rescind doctrinal decrees is a question that changes the subject. The obvious answer to your question is "no". I have answered all your questions.

You answer No even though you do not believe it - being unwilling to accept the truth due to inconvenience for yourself is another sign of a bad willed individual.

Quote from: Clancularius

Feeneyites see bad will and insincerity everywhere, unlike Our Lord and the Saints. I have conceded that your replacing my question with your own dogma was sufficient, and where I humbly concede, you accuse of insincerity. Really warped.

I agree that Feenyites see bad will everywhere - Our Lord said most will go to hell. If you do not see the same thing, then you better figure it out in this life.

Quote from: Clancularius

Stubborn, you answered "no" to the original question of this topic thread. You thereby agreed it was IMPOSSIBLE for the Church to define a dogma, and then later approve of catechisms for the laity and books for her clergy to learn from which calls into doubt that previously dogma AND for nobody in the Church to notice for hundreds of years. You said that was impossible.

You need to read what you write because you get confused in your own ambiguity. Try to avoid doing that from now on and you should be ok - if you can be of good will.

Quote from: Clancularius

Then you changed your answer to "yes" when you thought about the character of the Vatican II papal claimaints. This means either you don't think they are true popes after Vatican II, or you changed your original answer to "yes". Which is it?

You need to read what you write because you get confused in your own ambiguity. Try to avoid doing that from now on and you should be ok - if you can be of good will.

Matto · « **Reply #39 on:** May 17, 2013, 01:51:25 PM »

I like arguments about Baptism of Desire, but I am not really qualified to argue about it, though I have in the past despite this. Anyway I enjoy reading your arguments. :ready-to-eat:

Stubborn · « **Reply #40 on:** May 17, 2013, 01:52:55 PM »

Quote from: bowler

That is why St. Paul said that women should keep silent.

Quote from: MyrnaM

Bower How dare you say Our Lady should be silent. No wonder you are drifting away from truth.

Do any BODers read what is written? Ever?

Stubborn · « **Reply #41 on:** May 17, 2013, 02:12:22 PM »

Quote from: Matto

I like arguments about Baptism of Desire, but I am not really qualified to argue about it, though I have in the past despite this. Anyway I enjoy reading your arguments. :ready-to-eat:

I think it was Neil who suggested that BOD have a forum or sub-forum all it's own - I liked that idea.

Truth be told though, it can get tiring seeing fundamental dogmas posted by the Exclusive Salvation crowd being repeatedly rejected by the universal salvation crowd - who in turn post teachings from saints and catechisms as though there is either no contradiction or the dogmas do not mean what they say.

bowler · « **Reply #42 on:** May 17, 2013, 02:28:37 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Bower How dare you say Our Lady should be silent. No wonder you are drifting away from truth. I repeated what Our Lady said.

Here's actually what I wrote. If you are prone to get so emotional about nothing, you should really stay of forums like this.

Quote

Bowler wrote:
That is why St. Paul said that women should keep silent. There are many great women in Church history, but none of them was feelings oriented like that. What Myrna wrote is nonsense. It has no basis in Catholicism. This is what happens after 50+ years of effeminacy in the Church, there are no men left to keep feelings oriented women from going the syrup or the despair extremems. Our Faith is not about extremes either syrup or despair. What the Church teaches is not against hope, it is not despair, AND it is also not syrup.

roscoe · « **Reply #43 on:** May 17, 2013, 02:43:24 PM »

Quote from: Clancularius

Quote from: Stubborn
You make no sense. Why not demonstrate that you are sincere by replying to the clear questions I asked with clear answers instead of inventing a false conclusion to your own ambiguous fantasy questions?

You say it makes no sense, and don't explain anything. Nice way of changing the subject.

Your rephrased question about can the Church rescind doctrinal decrees is a question that changes the subject. The obvious answer to your question is "no". I have answered all your questions.

Feeneyites see bad will and insincerity everywhere

There is no such thing as a 'Feeeyite'.

I would suggest to all involved in this waste of time that it may be more beneficial to worry about the millions who Have been baptised but are going to hell anyway.

MO is that there are quite a few of those in this v2 anti-church Forum.

Clancularius · « **Reply #44 on:** May 17, 2013, 03:10:35 PM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: bowler
Quote from: saintbosco13
Quote from: gooch
I asked my sspx priest if it was possible a non catholic , like a jew, greek orthodox can be saved, he said it's possible, is this what all sspx people believe? how can you be a rue catholic and believe this nonsense?

This priest was wrong. One must belong to the Catholic Church in some way, at the very least by implicit desire, in order to obtain salvation.

You believe a person can be saved who does not want to be baptized, or be a Catholic, or be a martyr for the Faith, and does not believe in the Trinity and Christ. You swallowed the camel already, that that "person somehow belongs to the Church" (Although he wants nothing to do with it and Christ!).

cricket, cricket, cricket......

Be happy you are not a parrot, SB13.