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Author Topic: Dimonds  (Read 13415 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Dimonds
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2014, 01:19:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Stubborn
    What is a manual theologian?


    He's referring to the scholastic so-called "manualists".  Basically a proliferation of these occurred in the years leading up to Vatican II; they're really meant to be textbooks for use in seminaries.


    Yes, but without formal training, the thin line between "manual theologian" and "armchair theologian" is very thin indeed.


    He's actually talking about the Vatican II formally-trained writers of theology manuals ... such as Van Noort.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Dimonds
    « Reply #16 on: December 01, 2014, 01:47:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nado
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Stubborn
    What is a manual theologian?


    He's referring to the scholastic so-called "manualists".  Basically a proliferation of these occurred in the years leading up to Vatican II; they're really meant to be textbooks for use in seminaries.


    Yes, but without formal training, the thin line between "manual theologian" and "armchair theologian" is very thin indeed.


    He's actually talking about the Vatican II formally-trained writers of theology manuals ... such as Van Noort.


    Didn't Van Noort die in the 1940's in a ripe old age?


    Typo ... meant pre-Vatican II.  If you see the post above I wrote "in the years leading up to Vatican II".

    These manuals started popping up after Pope Leo XIII's re-affirmation and revival of Thomism


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Dimonds
    « Reply #17 on: December 01, 2014, 04:44:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    the BOD issue but they have gone so far to even think that Fr. Feeney was in error.  


    Heaven forbid!  What is this world coming too!    :shocked:
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Dimonds
    « Reply #18 on: December 01, 2014, 05:11:18 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Quote from: Cantarella
    the BOD issue but they have gone so far to even think that Fr. Feeney was in error.  


    Heaven forbid!  What is this world coming too!    :shocked:


    Yet another one of our resident CMRI "theologians".

    Offline Emerentiana

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    Dimonds
    « Reply #19 on: December 01, 2014, 06:14:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: APS
    All they were able to produce were ad hominems, Ipse Dixit, and rants.

    It was my understanding that these guys were supposed to be skilled debaters, but when they are really held up to the light they are nothing but empty suits.


    You got them pegged -- ad hominems, "because I said so", etc.

    They are NOT skilled debaters, unless of course you talk to one of their rabid fans :)

    They are schismatic, cutting off huge swaths of Catholics from the Catholic Church, which makes them objectively evil.

    In this time of confusion, when we are all trying to keep the Faith and keep Sanctifying Grace in our souls, I must say that they are to be avoided as dangerous to the Faith.

    Following schismatic, charismatic personalities or other cults is NOT a good way to keep the Catholic Faith during this Crisis.



    Thanks so much Matthew for this post!   :applause:


    Offline Cantarella

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    Dimonds
    « Reply #20 on: December 01, 2014, 06:44:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: Director
    Cantrarella..
    .
    Is it not true that Father Feeney believed (and probably in good faith) that one could be "Justified", without being Baptised .....?

    Please answer the Question ......


    No. What Fr. Feeney believed in his words was that "There is NO ONE about to die in the state of justification WHOM GOD CANNOT SECURE BAPTISM FOR, and indeed, Baptism of Water". Basically everyone who is justified, WILL also be baptized. Baptism is the seal of the initial state of Justification, which runs accordingly to the Catholic doctrine of predestination:

    Quote
    “For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son; that he might be the firstborn amongst many brethren. And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified.” (Rom 8:29-30)


    God's foreknowledge and providence includes the Sacrament that makes people members of Christ's Mystical Body and thus, able to enter Heaven.

    For more details on this, please open a new thread in the appropriate sub forum.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Dimonds
    « Reply #21 on: December 01, 2014, 07:22:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: Emerentiana
    Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: APS
    All they were able to produce were ad hominems, Ipse Dixit, and rants.

    It was my understanding that these guys were supposed to be skilled debaters, but when they are really held up to the light they are nothing but empty suits.


    You got them pegged -- ad hominems, "because I said so", etc.

    They are NOT skilled debaters, unless of course you talk to one of their rabid fans :)

    They are schismatic, cutting off huge swaths of Catholics from the Catholic Church, which makes them objectively evil.

    In this time of confusion, when we are all trying to keep the Faith and keep Sanctifying Grace in our souls, I must say that they are to be avoided as dangerous to the Faith.

    Following schismatic, charismatic personalities or other cults is NOT a good way to keep the Catholic Faith during this Crisis.



    Thanks so much Matthew for this post!   :applause:


     :rahrah: :rahrah: :rahrah:

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Dimonds
    « Reply #22 on: December 01, 2014, 07:26:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: Emerentiana
    Quote from: Matthew
    Following schismatic, charismatic personalities or other cults is NOT a good way to keep the Catholic Faith during this Crisis.


    Thanks so much Matthew for this post!   :applause:


    I'm surprised that a Shuckhardite could agree with the above statement from Matthew.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Dimonds
    « Reply #23 on: December 01, 2014, 07:28:25 PM »
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  • See, I told you.  There really IS salvation outside the Church.  

    :applause: :cheers:  :rahrah:  

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Dimonds
    « Reply #24 on: December 01, 2014, 07:50:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    See, I told you.  There really IS salvation outside the Church.  

    :applause: :cheers:  :rahrah:  



    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Revelation-Signs-and-Symbols/205176352857648
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    Offline Binechi

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    Dimonds
    « Reply #25 on: December 01, 2014, 08:11:19 PM »
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  • Quote
    No. What Fr. Feeney believed in his words was that "There is NO ONE about to die in the state of justification WHOM GOD CANNOT SECURE BAPTISM FOR, and indeed, Baptism of Water". Basically everyone who is justified, WILL also be baptized. Baptism is the seal of the initial state of Justification, which runs accordingly to the Catholic doctrine of predestination:


    Let see now ,,, we have a catechumen who is about to die who is not baptized but is "Justified",  In fact he is in the "State of Justification"
    Now isn t that a little "Odd"... The Council of Trent says that to reach the state of Justification, one must "Desire the Sacrament of Baptism, and then Receive it.  
    If one is Allready in the state of Justification, why in the world would he need to wait for Baptism.  Doesn t make sense... Fr Feeney was wrong ,, admit it.



    Quote
    Quote:
    “For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son; that he might be the firstborn amongst many brethren. And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified.” (Rom 8:29-30)
     



    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #26 on: December 01, 2014, 08:20:19 PM »
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  • Let's have a more objective look at the Dimonds, since most people have an ax to grind.

    1) I agree that they are not good debaters and do not construct solid arguments.  In particular, they fail to see finer distinctions that would make certain points of theirs more complex than they pretend.

    2) They often miss subtle nuance in some of the quotes they adduce to prove their positions.

    3) As with the dogmatic sedevacantists, this lack of ability to consider complexities and to make distinctions leads to a dogmatism, a pretense that their position is essentially de fide because it derives from a simple obvious "irrefutable" syllogism.  They use the word "irrefutable" all the time.

    4) They do have a lot of talent and do much good.  Their life of Padre Pio, their book on UFOs, their video on hell, and their How the Bible Proves the Teachings of the Catholic Church, their materials exposing evolution and modern science, et al. are absolutely wonderful.

    5) They practically give their stuff away, likely at a loss (charging just pennies for books, videos, and pamphlets); they are not about making money.

    6) In terms of their being brothers, the charge that they are "fake Benedictines" is absurd and uncharitable.  They're every bit as REAL as 99% of all Traditional groups of religious that have been founded without the requisite jurisdiction.

    7) Whether any of you like it or not, the Dimonds have correctly identified the root cause of the problem behind Vatican II ... a heretical new ecclesiology that resulted from a gradual rejection of EENS.  How do you get rid of EENS?  Just redefine "Church" and "outside", and you're good.  You're also now right there at Vatican II.

    8) Dimonds then realized that the weapon used by the heretics to undermine EENS and create the new ecclesiology was BoD.  But, unable to make the appropriate distinctions, they went overboard in declaring BoD "heretical" ... not realizing that one could defend EENS without necessarily rejecting BoD (at least logically).  In fact, the ardent proponents of BoD ALWAYS conflate the issues on purpose because then they can pretend that they have the authority of St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus, etc. behind their refusal to accept EENS and their new gnostic-Pelagian-Protestant ecclsiology.

    9) Dimonds recognize the bad will in most BoD proponents.  Most of them hold to their opinion because the find EENS unpalatable and won't listen to reason.  Consequently, the Dimonds became more frustrated and angry and bitter over time and have been overcome with bitter zeal.

    10) In excommunicating proponents of BoD, the Dimonds have adopted a schismatic stance.  I have repeatedly called them out on this.  Father Feeney and the vast majority of "Feeneyites" do NOT do this but consider their position on BoD to be personal opinion.

    What's interesting is that most of the bad traits of the Dimonds are not shared by the Feeneyite population as a whole, most of whom actually tend to be R&R.  In fact, there are relatively few sedevacantist Feeneyites, and the most hostile enemies of Father Feeney and EENS come from the ranks of the SVs.

    So most of the flaws one sees in the Dimonds are shared with the sedeavacantists and their bitter zeal and all its bad fruits actually emanate from the dogmatic sedevacantism rather than from Feeneyism.



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Dimonds
    « Reply #27 on: December 01, 2014, 08:27:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: Director
    Quote
    No. What Fr. Feeney believed in his words was that "There is NO ONE about to die in the state of justification WHOM GOD CANNOT SECURE BAPTISM FOR, and indeed, Baptism of Water". Basically everyone who is justified, WILL also be baptized. Baptism is the seal of the initial state of Justification, which runs accordingly to the Catholic doctrine of predestination:


    Let see now ,,, we have a catechumen who is about to die who is not baptized but is "Justified",  In fact he is in the "State of Justification"
    Now isn t that a little "Odd"... The Council of Trent says that to reach the state of Justification, one must "Desire the Sacrament of Baptism, and then Receive it.  
    If one is Allready in the state of Justification, why in the world would he need to wait for Baptism.  Doesn t make sense... Fr Feeney was wrong ,, admit it.



    Off-topic.  You need to start a separate thread.

    There is indeed a very real distinction between justification and salvation, the latter of which is sealed by a special grace called "final perseverance".  Father Feeney says that those in a state of justification through votum and who are predestined as it were towards final perseverance in the same would be brought to Baptism by God.  Father Feeney's distinction is indeed quite valid.  I'm not sure I agree 100%, but Father Feeney wasn't an idiot like you claim.  In addition, there's the precendent that the JUST of the Old Testament (great saints like St. Joseph and St. John the Baptist etc.), despite being in a state of justification, could not be saved because they were missing something.  That something is the same thing Father Feeney posited that those justified before Baptism would be lacking and incapable of being saved without.  Father simply said that God would in fact provide the Sacrament for His elect, those predestined towards final perseverance in this state of justification, and that this is what is meant by the "seal" of the Sacrament.

    It's very profound really, but I'm afraid too subtle for the Dimondite mind which tends to reduce everything into oversimplified syllogisms.

    Offline umblehay anmay

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    Dimonds
    « Reply #28 on: December 01, 2014, 09:49:58 PM »
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  • For all of you who say the Dimonds are not good debaters.... for God's sake, call them up, set up a recorded debate and hand them their lunch.  


    Offline Malleus

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    Dimonds
    « Reply #29 on: December 01, 2014, 10:23:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Let's have a more objective look at the Dimonds, since most people have an ax to grind.

    1) I agree that they are not good debaters and do not construct solid arguments.  In particular, they fail to see finer distinctions that would make certain points of theirs more complex than they pretend.

    2) They often miss subtle nuance in some of the quotes they adduce to prove their positions.

    3) As with the dogmatic sedevacantists, this lack of ability to consider complexities and to make distinctions leads to a dogmatism, a pretense that their position is essentially de fide because it derives from a simple obvious "irrefutable" syllogism.  They use the word "irrefutable" all the time.

    4) They do have a lot of talent and do much good.  Their life of Padre Pio, their book on UFOs, their video on hell, and their How the Bible Proves the Teachings of the Catholic Church, their materials exposing evolution and modern science, et al. are absolutely wonderful.

    5) They practically give their stuff away, likely at a loss (charging just pennies for books, videos, and pamphlets); they are not about making money.

    6) In terms of their being brothers, the charge that they are "fake Benedictines" is absurd and uncharitable.  They're every bit as REAL as 99% of all Traditional groups of religious that have been founded without the requisite jurisdiction.

    7) Whether any of you like it or not, the Dimonds have correctly identified the root cause of the problem behind Vatican II ... a heretical new ecclesiology that resulted from a gradual rejection of EENS.  How do you get rid of EENS?  Just redefine "Church" and "outside", and you're good.  You're also now right there at Vatican II.

    8) Dimonds then realized that the weapon used by the heretics to undermine EENS and create the new ecclesiology was BoD.  But, unable to make the appropriate distinctions, they went overboard in declaring BoD "heretical" ... not realizing that one could defend EENS without necessarily rejecting BoD (at least logically).  In fact, the ardent proponents of BoD ALWAYS conflate the issues on purpose because then they can pretend that they have the authority of St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus, etc. behind their refusal to accept EENS and their new gnostic-Pelagian-Protestant ecclsiology.

    9) Dimonds recognize the bad will in most BoD proponents.  Most of them hold to their opinion because the find EENS unpalatable and won't listen to reason.  Consequently, the Dimonds became more frustrated and angry and bitter over time and have been overcome with bitter zeal.

    10) In excommunicating proponents of BoD, the Dimonds have adopted a schismatic stance.  I have repeatedly called them out on this.  Father Feeney and the vast majority of "Feeneyites" do NOT do this but consider their position on BoD to be personal opinion.

    What's interesting is that most of the bad traits of the Dimonds are not shared by the Feeneyite population as a whole, most of whom actually tend to be R&R.  In fact, there are relatively few sedevacantist Feeneyites, and the most hostile enemies of Father Feeney and EENS come from the ranks of the SVs.

    So most of the flaws one sees in the Dimonds are shared with the sedeavacantists and their bitter zeal and all its bad fruits actually emanate from the dogmatic sedevacantism rather than from Feeneyism.




    The Novus ordo says nothing of bod in order to advance indifferentism and their denial of eens.

    They simply state non Catholics are part of the church whether they are bad willed or not, whether they desire baptism or not.