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Author Topic: Did EENS Undergo a Development of Understanding?  (Read 3125 times)

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Offline Hermes

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Did EENS Undergo a Development of Understanding?
« on: August 01, 2021, 04:23:59 PM »
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    • In his book, Fr. Sullivan, while a modernist, does a great job from a historical perspective in tracing the history of the dogma of EENS from its apostolic origins with the very earliest Church Fathers all the way to the modern era. He ruefully accedes to the fact that EENS was understood literally and with little discrepancy (Baptism of Blood) for over a millennia. It was when the “new world” was discovered that Baptism of Desire, which was previously a speculation on catechumens who died before Baptism, became a full blown extension to all who had died without evangelization (implicit BOD). This change in understanding brought BOD to its most logical conclusions with Karl Rahner’s αnσnymσus Christian and to the most radical universalism of Fr. Hans Balthazar who, like Origen, believed in the possibility of universal salvation.

    A very good read for those interested.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Did EENS Undergo a Development of Understanding?
    « Reply #1 on: August 01, 2021, 05:08:49 PM »
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    • Yes, he gets the history correct, as did Karl Rahner.  But, as Modernists, for them it's OK for dogma to change and evolve.

    "Rewarder God" theory was invented shortly after the discovery of the New World.

    From there, all hell broke lose on Catholic soteriology and ecclesiology.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Did EENS Undergo a Development of Understanding?
    « Reply #2 on: August 01, 2021, 05:12:00 PM »
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    • Is there a copy available online?  I'd rather not pay $27 for this on Amazon.
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    Offline Hermes

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    Re: Did EENS Undergo a Development of Understanding?
    « Reply #3 on: August 01, 2021, 05:52:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 01, 2021, 05:12:00 PM
    Is there a copy available online?  I'd rather not pay $27 for this on Amazon.
    Not that I have seen. It’s available on Perlego if you have a subscription or if you get a free trial.


    https://www.perlego.com/book/1722868/salvation-outside-the-church-tracing-the-history-of-the-catholic-response-pdf
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    Offline trad123

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    Re: Did EENS Undergo a Development of Understanding?
    « Reply #4 on: August 01, 2021, 06:40:50 PM »
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    • See attached.

    Part of chapter 5.

    Entirety of chapter 6, 7, and 8.


    Edit: Ran PDF through OCR, reattached file.
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    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Did EENS Undergo a Development of Understanding?
    « Reply #5 on: November 03, 2021, 06:36:43 PM »
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    • Between this and the Dimond's book you have everything covered. It's interesting though: Page 140 and on it EXPLICITLY says multiple times that the understanding of the dogma changed with VII. This book also, interestingly, makes the explicit distinction that many present at V1 at made the same distinctions about the "voto" text in Trent that EENSers on this forum are making. I'm straight going to reference this book a lot when arguing EENS on this forum as even the modernists admit our understanding is correct. Anyone on the fence about not buying this book should just buy, great reference. Worth noting the money isn't going to the Conciliar Hierarchy, the publisher is Wipf and Stock instead, which prints rare and out of print books. This book is written by a complete modernist but it's actually fantastic.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Did EENS Undergo a Development of Understanding?
    « Reply #6 on: November 03, 2021, 07:44:08 PM »
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    • OK, I've gone ahead and bought this book.  I imagine it will be a good read.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Did EENS Undergo a Development of Understanding?
    « Reply #7 on: November 03, 2021, 08:57:59 PM »
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    • Please do a book review, when you have time.  Would like to hear the high points. 
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Did EENS Undergo a Development of Understanding?
    « Reply #8 on: November 04, 2021, 06:46:49 AM »
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    • Father Hαɾɾιson did a talk at an SBC conference addressing this book by Fr. Sullivan. The text (pdf) of the talk was taken down at Father Hαɾɾιson's request; a shame. I have the pdf and might post it - not sure if that would be appropriate though. I believe one can still get the video/mp3 of the talk for maybe $5 or $10.

    I haven't read the article in some time but Father Hαɾɾιson gave a good summary of the "development" (false) of EENS (tracking Sullivan's discussion) and gave a strong defense for the traditional view - according with Cantate Domino.
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    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Did EENS Undergo a Development of Understanding?
    « Reply #9 on: November 04, 2021, 08:42:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on November 04, 2021, 06:46:49 AM
    Father Hαɾɾιson did a talk at an SBC conference addressing this book by Fr. Sullivan. The text (pdf) of the talk was taken down at Father Hαɾɾιson's request; a shame. I have the pdf and might post it - not sure if that would be appropriate though. I believe one can still get the video/mp3 of the talk for maybe $5 or $10.

    I haven't read the article in some time but Father Hαɾɾιson gave a good summary of the "development" (false) of EENS (tracking Sullivan's discussion) and gave a strong defense for the traditional view - according with Cantate Domino.
    Sounds like a good supplement, have a link where I could buy it? In terms of the VII sect I think the honesty of this book is helpful, most Modernists are not honest about their agenda like this. LoT and most sedes (some are fully redpilled but many have explicitly VII ecclesiological views) on this forum would benefit most from this book in my opinion. They are 100% onboard with all of clear steps of "development" in the dogma but are probably entirely ignorant that the EENS battle has been going on for 300+ years and how the discovery of the New World injected poison into theology.

    This is one of those topics where the "ghetto" destroys the visibility of this issue and people who wouldn't normally be interested in EENS might be in this case due to who wrote it. It's painful because the evidence is out in the open. We're able to discuss and piece together minor truths of our reality (9/11, stolen elections, the Great Reset etc) but when all of the evidence is served on our platter about an essential article of Faith it has to be silenced in this subforum. I'd say outside of SBC types and EENSers on this forum most people don't even know this book exists.

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    Regard all of my posts as unfounded slander, heresy, theologically specious etc
    I accept Church teaching on Implicit Baptism of Desire.
    Francis is Pope.
    NO is a good Mass.
    Not an ironic sig.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Did EENS Undergo a Development of Understanding?
    « Reply #10 on: November 04, 2021, 08:54:52 AM »
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    • Quote from: bodeens on November 03, 2021, 06:36:43 PM
    Between this and the Dimond's book you have everything covered. It's interesting though: Page 140 and on it EXPLICITLY says multiple times that the understanding of the dogma changed with VII. This book also, interestingly, makes the explicit distinction that many present at V1 at made the same distinctions about the "voto" text in Trent that EENSers on this forum are making. I'm straight going to reference this book a lot when arguing EENS on this forum as even the modernists admit our understanding is correct. Anyone on the fence about not buying this book should just buy, great reference. Worth noting the money isn't going to the Conciliar Hierarchy, the publisher is Wipf and Stock instead, which prints rare and out of print books. This book is written by a complete modernist but it's actually fantastic.
    It is easy to defend the truth, there is total consistency. All variants of BOD require constant mental gymnastics, at every turn there is an inconstancy that must be dealt with, and at the nd they just end up believing "who knows who is saved".
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Did EENS Undergo a Development of Understanding?
    « Reply #11 on: November 04, 2021, 09:12:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on November 04, 2021, 08:54:52 AM
    It is easy to defend the truth, there is total consistency. All variants of BOD require constant mental gymnastics, at every turn there is an inconstancy that must be dealt with, and at the nd they just end up believing "who knows who is saved".

    What's interesting is that the Modernists like Rahner and Sullivan admit the inconsistency but then chalk it up to doctrinal development (which in their view is tantamount to change).  See, they're OK with it.  Others who don't admit the principle of change attempt to apply a hermeneutic of continuity ... which indeed amounts to mental gymnastics with most attempts.  Archbishop Vigano finally snapped out of it and realized that applying the hermeneutic to V2 simply doesn't work.

    Rahner, one of the main influencers at V2, admitted that the GREATEST development at V2, and it went unnoticed by the Traditionalists, was that of EENS dogma.  He's right on both counts, that it was the greatest shift (along with the resulting shift in ecclesiology) and that it went unnoticed.

    And the reason it went unnoticed is that everyone had long been poisoned with the loose soteriology ... as we see even in Archbishop Lefebvre, who was one of the leaders of the conservative group at V2.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Did EENS Undergo a Development of Understanding?
    « Reply #12 on: November 04, 2021, 12:05:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: bodeens on November 04, 2021, 08:42:49 AM

    Sounds like a good supplement, have a link where I could buy it? In terms of the VII sect I think the honesty of this book is helpful, most Modernists are not honest about their agenda like this. LoT and most sedes (some are fully redpilled but many have explicitly VII ecclesiological views) on this forum would benefit most from this book in my opinion. They are 100% onboard with all of clear steps of "development" in the dogma but are probably entirely ignorant that the EENS battle has been going on for 300+ years and how the discovery of the New World injected poison into theology.

    This is one of those topics where the "ghetto" destroys the visibility of this issue and people who wouldn't normally be interested in EENS might be in this case due to who wrote it. It's painful because the evidence is out in the open. We're able to discuss and piece together minor truths of our reality (9/11, stolen elections, the Great Reset etc) but when all of the evidence is served on our platter about an essential article of Faith it has to be silenced in this subforum. I'd say outside of SBC types and EENSers on this forum most people don't even know this book exists.
     
    Let me clarify. Strictly speaking, Father hαɾɾιson took issue with implicit faith, calling it "false, and even proximate to heresy." That's pretty direct and straightforward, and probably why, as a member in good standing of the "Conciliar Church," on second thought he asked for it to be taken down. 

    The necessity of the Church for salvation, strictly speaking, was not the issue he addressed. 

    Here's an excerpt:


    Quote
    In the light of the very strong biblical witness we have surveyed very briefly above, it is not at all surprising that for no less than one and a half millennia after Christ, no Catholic theologian ever suggested that anyone in New Testament times, anywhere on earth, could still receive justification and sanctifying grace in this life, much less attain eternal salvation in the next life, by means of a merely ‘implicit faith’ in Christ. Fr. Sullivan, who is anxious to demonstrate the continuing, perennial reality and salvific value of such a ‘faith’, has combed the writings of the early Fathers, but draws a complete blank in this respect.


    The video/mp3 is available here:


    https://store.catholicism.org/can-an-implicit-faith-in-christ-be-sufficient-for-salvation-mp3.html


    https://store.catholicism.org/can-an-implicit-faith-in-christ-be-sufficient-for-salvation.html

    I haven't heard the lecture so I'm not sure how it differs from the paper. 

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    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Did EENS Undergo a Development of Understanding?
    « Reply #13 on: November 18, 2021, 11:08:37 PM »
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    • Just paging through the book and the honesty is incredible. Every time I pick up this book it's flooring how it makes you feel like no one is being entirely honest on this subject, especially online.

    Most traditional clergy won't attribute Augustine as incredibly strict on EENS but this book is probably one of the only sources to correctly identify that Augustine's shift towards staunch anti-Pelagianism influenced his thoughts on BoD and ecclesiology in general. This sits squarely with people like Hermes, Lad, LT and myself who identify 99% of BoD formulations as repackaged Pelagianism. Why does baptismofdesire.com quote Augustine as a pro-BoDer? Who is behind this site??? Even other modernists like the author of this book correctly identify Augustine as one of the most hardline on EENS.

    Page 43 is great, actually one of the most supportive to Dimondite viewpoints, as it attributes the ex cathedra statement from the Council of Florence on EENS as a verbatim quote from Fulgentius of Ruspe, who had very strict (characteristic for the time) views on ecclesiology. Modernists and a lot of traditional clergy say this proclamation, as with Cantate Domino,  isn't "understood", but it came from one of the staunch anti-boders from the early Church. How am I "supposed to understand" EENS or BoD? Very telling.

    Lad, have you gotten this book yet? Any modernists on this forum wanna chime in? I know LoT is lurking, he should honestly read this book because it is the most extreme refutations of baptismofdesire.com, and it comes from someone with 0 horse in the race. I wish more people would read this book, it's incredible.
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    Regard all of my posts as unfounded slander, heresy, theologically specious etc
    I accept Church teaching on Implicit Baptism of Desire.
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    NO is a good Mass.
    Not an ironic sig.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Did EENS Undergo a Development of Understanding?
    « Reply #14 on: November 19, 2021, 07:53:25 AM »
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    • I joined Perlego, as least for the trial membership, and I'm reading Fr. Sullivan's book. It does seem like an honest examination. For example, I'm in the first chapter, and he juxtaposes the older, infallible statements of EENS - you know, Cantate Domino, Unam Sanctam, etc. - against V2 statements and then the V1 statement about retaining the meaning of once declared dogma "without deviation from that meaning on the specious ground . . . of a more profound understanding."

    I'll share thoughts as I'm able. 

     
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    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.
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