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Author Topic: Denying BOD is a mortal sin  (Read 4239 times)

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Re: Denying BOD is a mortal sin
« Reply #65 on: Today at 05:14:26 AM »
Sometimes Tom, I get that feeling in my bowels that you are the king of BOD nitwits.  My point is that catechisms are all over the place, in fact, most catechisms, if you take the time to read them, contain errors. Some catechisms mention BOD and some do not - THAT IS THE POINT!

You do realize that the Immaculate Conception was so hotly debated amongst theologians for about 500 years - from roughly the time of Trent up to 1854 - that some of the popes forbade any debate of the issue in the universities.  The Dominican order was almost, to a man, against the Immaculate Conception. The fact that a few traditional priests and laymen want to lecture us about Baptism of Desire, is not surprising, as King Solomon tells us, "There is nothing new under the sun." 

You and others say, "God is not bound by the sacraments, blah, blah."  No bread and wine, no Mass; no man and woman, no marriage; no man, no priest.  God binds himself to many things.  When a priest or deacon puts God in a Tabernacle, He stays there until moved. God binds Himself to Truth and can never bind Himself to a lie.  If God tells us that the sacraments are necessary for salvation, He cannot then tell us that the sacraments are not necessary for salvation.  This is a contradiction, a lie.   


You dont understand what a theological note of certainty is do you.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Denying BOD is a mortal sin
« Reply #66 on: Today at 09:29:43 AM »

You dont understand what a theological note of certainty is do you.

Stop with the idiotic gaslighting.  He obviously understand what it means ... but simply disputes the theological note that some theologians have assigned to it (we notice that you truncated Father Cekada's list where the majority do not assign it any theological note at all).

At the end of the data, however, you're R&R-ish, right? ... since you're Resistance?

I'll entertain these debates with the Dogmatic SVs who assert that Pius XII is infallible every time he passes wind, etc. ... since at least they're consistent.

But for you to bloviate about theological consensus when ... for the past 60+ years, every theologian (other than Bishop Guerard des Lauriers, whom you despise) has agreed that Vatican II and the New Mass are Catholic and can be reconciled with Tradition, and all but a couple of bishops who were bishops at the time of Vatican II, and a long series of Popes, "saint" Popes no less ... they ALL assert that Vatican II is sound Catholic doctrine and that the Novus Ordo Missae is in fact a Catholic Mass.

But I love it how you can claim all this, but then claim that a bunch of (mostly manualist) theologians somehow represent a dogmatic consensus.  That's typical of the BoDers, a confirmation bias, where when theologians agree with what they hold, then they have authority, but when you disagree with what they hold, then you pretend they don't even exist.

So, some regional Catechisms that even the SV types have to admit are not infallible (not a few of them explicitly rejected papal infallibility before Vatican I, but then were updated afterwards), these for you are somehow obligatory rule of faith, when they are meant to be nothing other than a didacted / catechetical aid, but then you just blow off an Ecuмenical Council and 60+ years of "papal" (according to you) Magisterium?

You're disqualified from arguing from theological "authority" in this debate.  SVs are not, but you are.  So if you want to go ahead, consistent with R&R-ism, to explain why BoD was held always and everywhere by all Catholics (the typical R&R formula), then proceed to demonstrate this.  Now, it could be that you lean on "authority" (selected according to your criteria) because it's easy to debunk any kind of "universal" believe, since the majority of Church Fathers rejected BoD.

At least SSPX, where it comes to that debate about the validity of New "Holy Orders", they do NOT use what could in fact be THE strongest argument, namely, that if a legitimate Pope promulgated it, then it MUST be valid, since if a legitimate Pope promulgated it, then it also cannot be displeasing to God and harmful to souls.  So they know that it would be inconsistent of them to appeal to disciplinary infallibility when ... they've spent several decades attempting to undermine and reject disciplinary infallibility.


Re: Denying BOD is a mortal sin
« Reply #67 on: Today at 10:06:19 AM »
Show me then any theologian before fr feeney that claimed there was any kind of conflict between eens and bod.
I am not saying Fr feeney did, just that this was never an issue until him.

Should be an easy task since you like to come across as all so learned

Re: Denying BOD is a mortal sin
« Reply #68 on: Today at 01:05:16 PM »
Show me then any theologian before fr feeney that claimed there was any kind of conflict between eens and bod.
I am not saying Fr feeney did, just that this was never an issue until him.

Should be an easy task since you like to come across as all so learned

All I can say... is that TGK.. knows how to take a punch....  :cowboy:


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Denying BOD is a mortal sin
« Reply #69 on: Today at 02:31:49 PM »
Show me then any theologian before fr feeney that claimed there was any kind of conflict between eens and bod.
I am not saying Fr feeney did, just that this was never an issue until him.

Should be an easy task since you like to come across as all so learned

I just finished mansplaining to you that it depends what you mean by "BoD".  Problem with most of you is that it's just a word, and Catholics must assent to propositions not to mere words or phrases.  There are so many different explanations for what BoD is, how it works, and to whom it might apply, that the only common denominator between all its "versions" is that ... the Sacrament of Baptism it not absolutely necessary for salvation, which of course was condemned as heresy by the Council of Trent.

But, then, morons will moron.

I already explained to you that a limited form of explicit BoD, which is actually the only form that has ANY authoritative backing ... is not intrinsically incompatible with EENS.  Now, the version of BoD that has been used to get Jews, Muslims, heretics, and schismtics "saved", that version absolutely guts not only EENS dogma, but Catholic ecclesiology in general.

If not only Catholics, but but also Protestants, Orthdox / schismatics, and even infidels (according to most Trad clergy), such as Jews and "Hindus in Tibet", or Muslims ... can be saved (without converting before their deaths), that means these Prots, schismatics, and infidels were IN the Church.  So, then, if the Church includes not only Catholics, but also a variety of Prots, Orthodox, and even infidels ... welp, that's Vatcan II ecclesiology in a nutshell, and all the errors of V2 derive from that subjectivist soteriology.  You have no business being a Trad and rejecting Vatican II if you believe that non-Catholics can be saved.

But those of you who actually intend to use "BoD" to undermine EENS dogma, because, if you're honest with yourself, you'd admit it, you could hardly care less about the rare case of a catechumen who dies in a car wreck on the way to his Baptism.  Your whole point is to gut EENS dogma.  Period.