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Author Topic: Definitive Definitions of the Mystical Body of Christ  (Read 1947 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Definitive Definitions of the Mystical Body of Christ
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2017, 08:54:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on July 20, 2017, 08:30:22 AM
    God judges the heart, He knows our efforts, sincerity and whether we purposely engage in acts we believe to be against His will without repenting or not.

    You know, LoT, I don't care whether or not you believe in BoD.  St. Thomas did.  People here on CI do with whom I have no major issues (e.g. Arvinger).  My problem with you is and always has been your promotion of Pelagianism ... such as what's evident in the citation here.  You continually assert that things like "our efforts" and sincerity and intentions are salvific, ex opere operantis, without the unmerited ex opere operato grace of the Sacrament.  That's utter Pelagian heresy.  It's on that count that I continue to denounce you for heresy.

    I've repeatedly said that if you merely stated that it's not the desire which saves but, rather, the Sacrament of Baptism, acting through the desire; that if you merely stated that the Sacrament of Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation but that it can be received in voto, then I wouldn't waste a single minute of my time arguing with you.  That would be your opinion, one shared by a number of Catholic Doctors, and it's within the boundaries of orthodoxy.  I don't agree with it, but I also have no problem with it.

    Your issue is the constant promotion of Pelagian heresy and your heretical denial of Trent's dogmatic teaching that the Sacraments are necessary by necessity of means for salvation.
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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Definitive Definitions of the Mystical Body of Christ
    « Reply #31 on: July 20, 2017, 09:02:10 AM »
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    •   So the following are what those who believe the infallible doctrine that non-members of the Church can be saved have in common with those who insist the card-carrying Roman Catholics and only card-carrying Catholics can possibly be saved.



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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Definitive Definitions of the Mystical Body of Christ
    « Reply #32 on: July 20, 2017, 09:06:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 20, 2017, 08:54:25 AM
    You know, LoT, I don't care whether or not you believe in BoD.  St. Thomas did.  People here on CI do with whom I have no major issues (e.g. Arvinger).  My problem with you is and always has been your promotion of Pelagianism ... such as what's evident in the citation here.  You continually assert that things like "our efforts" and sincerity and intentions are salvific, ex opere operantis, without the unmerited ex opere operato grace of the Sacrament.  That's utter Pelagian heresy.  It's on that count that I continue to denounce you for heresy.

    I've repeatedly said that if you merely stated that it's not the desire which saves but, rather, the Sacrament of Baptism, acting through the desire; that if you merely stated that the Sacrament of Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation but that it can be received in voto, then I wouldn't waste a single minute of my time arguing with you.  That would be your opinion, one shared by a number of Catholic Doctors, and it's within the boundaries of orthodoxy.  I don't agree with it, but I also have no problem with it.

    Your issue is the constant promotion of Pelagian heresy and your heretical denial of Trent's dogmatic teaching that the Sacraments are necessary by necessity of means for salvation.
    He LOVES error, despises truth, most certainly despises the sacraments and dogma and most assuredly has every intention of remaining that way.  
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Definitive Definitions of the Mystical Body of Christ
    « Reply #33 on: July 20, 2017, 09:06:37 AM »
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    • We accept the Dogma that there is no salvation outside the Church.
    • We do not accept the "fact" that there are inward legitimate Catholics, real and true members of the Church, attached only to the "soul" of the Church but not the body. Those within the Church by desire have not obtained the membership they desire as there is no need to desire what you have obtained.
    • We agree that a mere desire or wish to belong to the true Church is not enough to save anyone.
    • We agree that invincible ignorance by itself does not save anyone.
    • No one at all is saved by any false religion and all religions apart from the Catholic one (since the death of Christ) are false.
    • We should agree that anyone who dies in a state of sanctifying grace obtains the Beatific Vision.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Definitive Definitions of the Mystical Body of Christ
    « Reply #34 on: July 20, 2017, 09:07:48 AM »
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    • ^^^^^ See, he just keeps on proving he loves error.

    FYI, non-members cannot die in the state of sanctifying grace.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Definitive Definitions of the Mystical Body of Christ
    « Reply #35 on: July 20, 2017, 09:21:28 AM »
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    •  Those who would claim that the infallible doctrine that teaches that non-members of the Church can be saved within the Church bases its teaching on false suppositions such as the reverse of the above six points need to eliminate such as legitimate objections. The baptism of blood and baptism of desire proponents, who understand what the Church teaches on the issue, agree with them on the six points above. The key point we disagree on, as far as I can tell, is that the Feeneyites insist you must be Catholic in order to be saved. That is the only thing that matters, sanctifying grace, supernatural faith and charity, invincible ignorance, not being culpable of mortal sin are all out the window, or impossible if you are not a card-carrying Catholic. If you are Catholic you can be saved, if you are not, there is no possible way you can be saved, unless you convert and are baptized before you die.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Definitive Definitions of the Mystical Body of Christ
    « Reply #36 on: July 20, 2017, 09:23:27 AM »
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    • You would think that one would be suspicious that his "answer" comes from an American theologian 2000 years after Christ. The entire Church got it wrong till this theologian made his "discovery". The same theologian who approved of Vatican II.

    "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears" 2Tim 4:3
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    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Definitive Definitions of the Mystical Body of Christ
    « Reply #37 on: July 20, 2017, 09:31:32 AM »
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    • Thus the Feeneyits have an "infallible" insight as to who is damned and who is not, with absolute assurance even though the Church herself only claims to know some who have been saved, and these are her pre-Vatican II canonized Saints. Judas the Iscariot is the only one holy Mother Church would admit to be damned with any sort of certainty. God's work is simple. On the Day of Judgment, God does not look into your heart but asks for your card. If you don't have a card that proves you are a Roman Catholic then the Hell with you. Our purpose in these articles is to prove that God is not the arbitrary Tyrant the Feeneyits, perhaps unwittingly, make Him to be.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Definitive Definitions of the Mystical Body of Christ
    « Reply #38 on: July 20, 2017, 09:42:31 AM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on July 20, 2017, 09:21:28 AM
    Those who would claim that the infallible doctrine that teaches that non-members of the Church can be saved within the Church......
    :facepalm:
    Putting this one on unnotify.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Definitive Definitions of the Mystical Body of Christ
    « Reply #39 on: July 20, 2017, 09:47:28 AM »
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    • Ten years ago this month, on June 29th, 1943, to be exact, His Holiness Pope Pius XII issued the encyclical Mystici Corporis. The publication of this doctrinal instruction was providential, as any comparison between manuals of ecclesiology written prior to its appearance and the texts which have been printed during the last ten years will very easily attest. It is only fitting that Catholic theologians throughout the world should take cognizance of this anniversary, and try, on this occasion, to appreciate some of the great benefits God has granted to His kingdom on earth through this doctrinal letter of Our Lord's vicar on earth. 
        The central pronouncement in the encyclical Mystici Corporis is to be found in the declaration that the expression "Mystical Body of Jesus Christ" is actually a definition of the Church. In the words of the Holy Father, "If we would define and describe this true Church of Jesus Christ - which is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Roman Church - we shall find no expression more noble, more sublime, or more divine, than the phrase which calls it 'the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ.'" Fenton
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Definitive Definitions of the Mystical Body of Christ
    « Reply #40 on: July 20, 2017, 09:48:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on July 20, 2017, 09:06:37 AM
    • We accept the Dogma that there is no salvation outside the Church.
    • We do not accept the "fact" that there are inward legitimate Catholics, real and true members of the Church, attached only to the "soul" of the Church but not the body. Those within the Church by desire have not obtained the membership they desire as there is no need to desire what you have obtained.
    • We agree that a mere desire or wish to belong to the true Church is not enough to save anyone.
    • We agree that invincible ignorance by itself does not save anyone.
    • No one at all is saved by any false religion and all religions apart from the Catholic one (since the death of Christ) are false.
    • We should agree that anyone who dies in a state of sanctifying grace obtains the Beatific Vision.

    Nobody cares about what YOU "accept" or what you "agree" to.  We're interested in what the Church teaches.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Definitive Definitions of the Mystical Body of Christ
    « Reply #41 on: July 20, 2017, 09:49:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on July 20, 2017, 09:06:37 AM
    • We accept the Dogma that there is no salvation outside the Church.
    • We do not accept the "fact" that there are inward legitimate Catholics, real and true members of the Church, attached only to the "soul" of the Church but not the body. Those within the Church by desire have not obtained the membership they desire as there is no need to desire what you have obtained.
    • We agree that a mere desire or wish to belong to the true Church is not enough to save anyone.
    • We agree that invincible ignorance by itself does not save anyone.
    • No one at all is saved by any false religion and all religions apart from the Catholic one (since the death of Christ) are false.
    • We should agree that anyone who dies in a state of sanctifying grace obtains the Beatific Vision.

    None of this addresses or absolves you from the heresies that I have imputed to you.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Definitive Definitions of the Mystical Body of Christ
    « Reply #42 on: July 20, 2017, 09:50:56 AM »
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    • LoT has the temerity to reject the teaching of the Catechism of St. Pius X that the Sacrament of Baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation.  LoT instead blathers on with his novelty that the Sacrament is only relatively necessary.
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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Definitive Definitions of the Mystical Body of Christ
    « Reply #43 on: July 20, 2017, 09:51:10 AM »
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    •     All of the rest of the purely doctrinal portion of the encyclical, the sections which deal with the concept of the Church as a "body," as "the body of Christ," and as "the Mystical Body of Christ," as well as the part which describes the union of the faithful with Our Lord, should thus be considered as directed towards a more perfect and detailed understanding of what is basically one of the great classical definitions of the true Church. And all of the pastoral exhortations which make up the remainder of the body of the encyclical are meant to warn the faithful against errors which would militate against their appreciation of the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ and to encourage them to give to the Church the tribute of genuine, strong, and supernatural affection demanded by the bonds that join the Church and its members to Our Lord, the Head of the Mystical Body. All of this obviously revolves around the realization that the expression "Mystical body of Christ" is a real definition of the true Church of God. Fenton
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Definitive Definitions of the Mystical Body of Christ
    « Reply #44 on: July 20, 2017, 09:51:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 20, 2017, 09:50:56 AM
    LoT has the temerity to reject the teaching of the Catechism of St. Pius X that the Sacrament of Baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation.  LoT instead blathers on with his novelty that the Sacrament is only relatively necessary.
    :facepalm:
    That catechism teaches BOD
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church
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