Author Topic: Defining Baptism of Desire, Blood and Water (Read 3877 times)

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #45 on:** June 03, 2016, 05:10:26 AM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat

This thread looked really overburdened with one member's posts, so I did an experiment. I put LoT on "Hide" and then looked at the thread again.

It is really interesting to see how much easier it is to read this thread in that mode.

Try it and see. (If you have trouble doing that, it might be because you can't put yourself on hide.)

Try the same thing by putting Ladislaus on hide.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #46 on:** June 03, 2016, 05:11:33 AM »

Response, continued: I really have to wonder at the monsterous teaching that the Heavenly Father is not like the Father in the parable of the Prodigal son who, "when he [the son] was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him." (Luke 15:20) Feeneyites would have it that the Father cares not of his son until that son has fully arrived, and washed up, and then the Father takes notice of him, "Oh, I didn't see you coming. How lucky for you that you made it. Now that you are back, and now that you have washed, only now are you finally welcome."

Stubborn · « **Reply #47 on:** June 03, 2016, 05:23:19 AM »

Quote

And let us make this point most emphatic, this is the most important thing that the Church has to do with regard to all those outside the Church; to tell them that God requires that they enter the Church.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #48 on:** June 03, 2016, 05:24:38 AM »

Response, continued: So, when I said, "Like all others who left the Church, he subsequently veered into error, namely the claim that a soul cannot be 'saved' unless literally baptized with water," and "The Church had already explicitly taught otherwise [from Fr. Feeney's unique interpretation], namely that a soul can be not only justified, but saved, by a Baptism of Blood or Desire," these statements are fully in accord with the "mind of the Church," and as such require no explanation:

Stubborn · « **Reply #49 on:** June 03, 2016, 05:25:49 AM »

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Most people are inclined to think that justification is the same as salvation. And you must understand that that is simply not true, it is not an accurate thought. Justification is but the first step in the way of redemption, whereas salvation is the very last step.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #50 on:** June 03, 2016, 05:34:52 AM »

Redemption comes before justification Stubborn.

Stubborn · « **Reply #51 on:** June 03, 2016, 05:40:04 AM »

Quote from: John 3:5

Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Quote from: ihsv

Can a man enter the Kingdom of God without being born again of water and the Holy Ghost?

Well, can he?

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #52 on:** June 03, 2016, 05:44:46 AM »

Do you get that we were redeemed in 33 A.D.?

Stubborn · « **Reply #53 on:** June 03, 2016, 05:48:17 AM »

Quote

And it is because of that expression; "or the desire for the same", that many think that that is an allusion to the idea of baptism of desire. But the important word in that expression is the word "Justification". What do you think that means?

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #54 on:** June 03, 2016, 05:54:41 AM »

Justification. The passing, under the action of divine grace, from the state of injustice or aversion from God to the state of justice (in the biblical sense, holiness).

This divine work is likened by Jesus Christ to a regeneration (John 1 and 3); St. Paul calls it a “new creation n Christ” (Cor. 5: 17). It is precisely St. Paul who develops more copiously the doctrine of justification with an abundance of motifs that all converge on the same concept of an interior transformation, whose term is the homo novus. The Lutheran interpretation does St. Paul an evident injury by claiming to reduce this thought to the theory of an extrinsic justification (imputation of Christ’s holiness to incurable man). Some modern Protestants have abandoned this extravagant exegesis and have approached the traditional Catholic interpretation (Sanday, Lulicher, Zahn, and others).

The Council of Trent, sess. VI, assembles and determines in clear and concise expressions the traditional doctrine (cf. especially chapters 7, 8, 9, and corresponding canons). Justification in newborn babies is effected through baptism instantaneously, but in adults (ordinarily at least) is effected in two phases: (1) Preparation under the influence of actual (exciting) grace, the sinner begins to turn toward God by acts of faith, sorrow, and love (Council of Trent, sess, VI, can. 6). (2) Information: in the subject, so prepared, God works the supernatural renovation, which consists in a single act, having two aspects, one negative (the remission or real destruction of sin), and the other positive (the infusion of sanctifying grace with the virtues and the gifts that accompany it) (cf. Council of Trent, sess. VI, cans, 7, 8). This is the divinization of man of which the Eastern Fathers often speak (cf. Cyril of Alexandria).

One last time. And this is a problem I have with many Feeneyites I debate. The NEVER admit to being wrong and NEVER grant a point no matter how undeniable.

You claimed justification is the first step in the way of redemption. Do you get that we were redeemed first in 33 A.D. or not? Have you every granted a point that corrected you before? I have never seen you or Ladislaus do this.

Stubborn · « **Reply #55 on:** June 03, 2016, 06:00:15 AM »

Quote

The results of this vague and indeterminate form of “Baptism of Desire”, which says that every man will be saved who has good will, has practically destroyed all effort on the part of the conciliar church to make converts, to bring men into the Church. In fact, that is one word that you will almost never see in their writings and to pronounce it is almost bad language, the idea of making converts, some bishops have said very openly that this is uncharitable. Some have said even that it is not according the spirit of the Vatican Council try to convert Jews. How does one know when one sincerely desires to do the will of God? One knows by one’s response to your telling him what his duty is.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #56 on:** June 03, 2016, 07:40:24 AM »

It is not taught that good will alone can save. What matters is the truth. The results take care of themselves. The quote appeals more to logic than emotion. It stems from an agenda which stems from a source that holds himself above the magisterium.

Stubborn · « **Reply #57 on:** June 03, 2016, 12:53:16 PM »

"I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas, the greatest theologian in the history of the Church

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #58 on:** June 03, 2016, 01:00:57 PM »

Yes.

tdrev123 · « **Reply #59 on:** June 03, 2016, 06:34:51 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote from: Neil Obstat
This thread looked really overburdened with one member's posts, so I did an experiment. I put LoT on "Hide" and then looked at the thread again.

It is really interesting to see how much easier it is to read this thread in that mode.

Try it and see. (If you have trouble doing that, it might be because you can't put yourself on hide.)

Try the same thing by putting Ladislaus on hide.

The only reason people read these threads is to read Ladislaus's responses, nobody cares about yours because you are so ignorant and heretical you think your smart.

Can you name me one Catholic, before the 19th century that ever said a non-catholic can even have the possibility of attaining eternal life?