Author Topic: Debate on ‘BOD’?  (Read 392 times)

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Offline Clemens Maria

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Debate on ‘BOD’?
« on: June 10, 2021, 09:56:21 AM »
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  • I saw this on the Most Holy Family Monastery Website:

    Debate on ‘BOD’?

    MHFM: We were interested in having a recorded debate/conversation with a supporter of ‘baptism of desire’ or salvation by ‘invincible ignorance’ on the issue of salvation, baptism, the necessity of the Church, etc.  If someone is interested in having such a debate, e-mail us with your actual full name and phone number/contact information and you will be considered.  Trolls should not bother, as we will not speak with trolls.  If you can be flexible with your schedule, that would be preferable.

    email: mhfm1@aol.com

    Nishant Xavier, this is your chance to argue your position against Brother Peter Dimond.  Based on the typical views of MHFM videos, it would be an opportunity to try to convince thousands of people of your position.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Debate on ‘BOD’?
    « Reply #1 on: June 10, 2021, 12:02:34 PM »
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  • It would be interesting to hear because I know Xavier personally holds that explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation are necessary for salvation.

    We know how this debate would go though.

    Xavier's main point is that he asserts it was taught by Trent, and then later adopted by various Church Doctors.

    Part I

    Xavier:  St. Augustine and St. Ambrose taught BoD.
    MHFM:  Most of the Church Fathers didn't, and St. Ambrose was ambiguous.
    Xavier:  But they all taught BoB.
    MHFM:  they're not the same thing.
    Xavier:  But same principles are behind them.
    MHFM:  That's not true

    Part II

    Xavier:  Trent teaches BoD.
    MHFM:  No it doesn't.
    [30 minute argument, where Xavier says it's interpreted by the Doctors and MHFM disagrees]

    Part II

    Xavier:  all these Doctors, Catechisms, theologians teach BoD.
    MHFM:  These are not infallible sources.
    [20 minutes of arguing about that]

    We've had these same debates over and over again where I've come to feel that they're fruitless.




    Online Last Tradhican

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    Re: Debate on ‘BOD’?
    « Reply #2 on: June 10, 2021, 12:39:55 PM »
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  • I know Xavier personally holds that explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation are necessary for salvation.
    He only says that because we cornered him, he really does not believe it is necessary. To get around it, he says that God can show the truth to the Muslim (or whatever) in his last second of life. Therefore, his real belief is "who knows who really outside of the Church".
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Debate on ‘BOD’?
    « Reply #3 on: June 10, 2021, 01:31:06 PM »
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  • I did an exercise with regard to the existence of God.  I've pretended that I was supposed to debate the negative side, to argue that there is no God.  I couldn't come up with a single convincing argument for it.

    Similarly, if I had to argue in favor of BoD, I couldn't do it.  Best I could argue is that belief in it has been permitted by the Church.  I wouldn't actually mind discussing this with the Dimonds, whether or not BoD is heretical even in the St. Robert Bellarmine sense (applied to catechumens only).

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Debate on ‘BOD’?
    « Reply #4 on: June 10, 2021, 03:34:58 PM »
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  • I don't think anyone should debate with the DB's unless they agree not to call their opponent a heretic.    :laugh1:
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Debate on ‘BOD’?
    « Reply #5 on: June 10, 2021, 04:59:41 PM »
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  • See those of us here at CI know all the arguments made by both sides.  There will be nothing new or surprising in such a debate to any of us.  And the Dimonds know the other side's arguments as well, since they address them at length in their very large work on EENS.

    BOD:  Trent, Doctors, theologians
    MHFM:  Trent didn't teach BoD and the Doctors and theologians are not infallible

    That about sums it up.  Neither side is going to be persuaded of the other side's points on these issues above.  I don't believe Trent taught BoD, but then others do (depends on how you interpret an ambiguous phrase).  Really the authority of BoD hinges entirely on Trent and whether you believe Trent taught BoD, and the one side isn't going to be persuaded by the other ... since the passage COULD theoretically be read either way.

    Offline XavierSem

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    Re: Debate on ‘BOD’?
    « Reply #6 on: June 13, 2021, 02:27:00 AM »
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  • Hi Clemens Maria, yes, I would be ready for such a debate. I would argue 5 points.

    I. The Catechism and Council of Trent teach BOD.
    II. St. Alphonsus, whom some 20 Popes for 2 centuries have approved, teaches BOD is de fide.
    III. Pope Leo XIII teaches BOD in the Baltimore Catechism as divinely revealed, i.e. de fide.
    IV. Pope St. Pius X teaches BOD in his Catechism. Therefore, it is impossible that BOD be heretical.
    V. Pope Ven. Pius XII teaches BOD in multiple places. If BOD is heretical, all these Popes are heretics, which is impossible.

    There are further points but these should be enough. The Dimonds are formidable adversaries, no doubt about that. But Truth will Triumph. I think the evidence in favour of the BOD position, even not going to the other Doctors and Saints, is quite strong imo.

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Debate on ‘BOD’?
    « Reply #7 on: June 13, 2021, 06:31:30 AM »
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  • We know what you would argue, Xavier.  And we know what the Dimonds argue about your points ... that Trent didn’t teach BoD and the rest of these are fallible sources.  Drop them a line if you want to debate.


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Debate on ‘BOD’?
    « Reply #8 on: June 13, 2021, 06:40:22 AM »
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  • See those of us here at CI know all the arguments made by both sides.  There will be nothing new or surprising in such a debate to any of us.  And the Dimonds know the other side's arguments as well, since they address them at length in their very large work on EENS.

    BOD:  Trent, Doctors, theologians
    MHFM:  Trent didn't teach BoD and the Doctors and theologians are not infallible

    That about sums it up.  Neither side is going to be persuaded of the other side's points on these issues above.  I don't believe Trent taught BoD, but then others do (depends on how you interpret an ambiguous phrase).  Really the authority of BoD hinges entirely on Trent and whether you believe Trent taught BoD, and the one side isn't going to be persuaded by the other ... since the passage COULD theoretically be read either way.
    I guess my issue with the MHFM here is a plausibility one, is it really likely that all those doctors and theologians of the Church held to a *heretical* position?  I'd be more sympathetic if its "heretical" like in the kind of way that St Thomas Aquinas' view of the IC was heretical, needing clarification by a future dogmatic statement, but the Dimonds don't argue this way, instead they just argue that its heretical *now*.  If St Alphonsus was alive today, I think its very likely that they'd call him "obstinate and bad willed" if he heard all their arguments and still thought BOD made sense.

    I agree that this debate ultimately wouldn't go anywhere.  Because its ultimately an issue of plausibility.

    As far as Trent goes, I don't think Trent clearly teaches a BOD, but I do think Trent clearly *allows* for belief in BOD, subject to future church rulings on the website.  There would be no point of having included that phrase if they thought BOD was a heresy no Catholic could licitly believe in.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Debate on ‘BOD’?
    « Reply #9 on: June 13, 2021, 07:17:01 AM »
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  • I guess my issue with the MHFM here is a plausibility one, is it really likely that all those doctors and theologians of the Church held to a *heretical* position?  I'd be more sympathetic if its "heretical" like in the kind of way that St Thomas Aquinas' view of the IC was heretical, needing clarification by a future dogmatic statement, but the Dimonds don't argue this way, instead they just argue that its heretical *now*.  If St Alphonsus was alive today, I think its very likely that they'd call him "obstinate and bad willed" if he heard all their arguments and still thought BOD made sense.

    I agree that this debate ultimately wouldn't go anywhere.  Because its ultimately an issue of plausibility.

    As far as Trent goes, I don't think Trent clearly teaches a BOD, but I do think Trent clearly *allows* for belief in BOD, subject to future church rulings on the website.  There would be no point of having included that phrase if they thought BOD was a heresy no Catholic could licitly believe in.

    Yes, as you know, despite not believing in BoD, that's also my big issue with the Dimonds, their assertion that any understanding of BoD is heretical.  It's very clear to me that the Church has long allowed this opinion as not inherently incompatible with the dogma that the Sacraments are necessary for salvation.  I think that the Dimonds' argument from "necessity" is a bit simplistic.  Even if BoD is merely necessary by desire, it would still be necessary, acting as the instrumental cause of the justification operating through the desire.  You can't desire Baptism without there being Baptism.  I could see disagreeing with that, but it's an argument one can make without explicitly denying Church teaching.  If it's wrong, we have to wait for the Church to condemn the position before we can declare it heretical.  As soon as one starts making syllogisms against the explicit text of a defined dogma, you're a step removed from denying the actual dogma.

    Also, while St. Robert Bellarmine and St. Alphonsus were clearly not infallible, as the Doctors disagreed with one another on not a few points, and held many opinions of lesser authority and speculation, to think that the Church would declare them Doctors of the Church when they were teaching open heresy is a bit much.  Also, the 1917 Code of Canon Law permits hope in a BoD ... even though it clearly doesn't teach it (an argument for another day).  Also, Cajetan believed in BoD.  St. Pius V regularly ordered stuff removed from his works that he felt were against Catholic doctrine.  In fact, he ordered that Cajetan's opinion regarding "vicarious Baptism of Desire" be expunged from Cajetan's work ... but not Baptism of Desire itself.

    Their case that BoD is heretical flies in the face of a large amount of evidence to the contrary.  Now, might it be heretical per se and the Church will one day condemn it?  That's quite possible.  But, as you said, until such an explicit condemnation, it's impossible to hold that the opinion is heretical in the strict sense, even though it's OK to argue that it's objectively heretical ... just as rejecting the Immaculate Conception was always objectively heretical even before its defintion.

    Offline XavierSem

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    Re: Debate on ‘BOD’?
    « Reply #10 on: June 13, 2021, 09:35:55 AM »
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  • I sent them an email some time ago.

    Ladislaus' position is more qualified than the Dimonds but still problematic. No future Pope is going to declare BOD heretical. A future Pope may very well declare, "If anyone denies that Love of God or Perfect Contrition, in which the Desire for the Sacraments is included, instantly justifies and is rightly called Baptism of Desire, let him be anathema". I hope Ladislaus will submit.

    No, it is not permissible to argue BOD is objectively heretical. That would be like arguing the Immaculate Conception is objectively heretical.

    Anyone who argues BOD is objectively heretical has been confused by the Dimondite heresy. That is Semi-Dimondism at the very least.

    The Dimonds have completely confused many people who follow them. If Pope St. Pius X taught BOD, BOD cannot be heretical, period.

    Edit: All that can be credibly argued is at most that Pope St. Pius X did not define BOD ex cathedra, but only taught it in a Catechism. His Holiness certainly sufficiently manifested his desire to definitively teach this doctrine, and a future Successor could formally define it.
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