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Author Topic: Death Without Baptism!  (Read 2647 times)

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Offline Incredulous

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Re: Death Without Baptism!
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2019, 07:43:43 AM »
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  • I can only hope there's more to the story than what you wrote.  I cannot imagine being in the room with an unbaptized dying person who had expressed a desire to become Catholic, and not baptizing him right away.

    On these pages, we have argued the root cause of such a problem, which is the (4) Baptisms supposedly espoused by +ABL in his 1886 book “Open Letter to Confused Catholics”.


    Fast forward 33 years and you have SSPX priests with flawed formations sitting at the deathbeds of highly prospective converts... doing nothing.


    As Father Feeney analyzed it:

    150 years ago, the rabbis knew if they could undermine the “Gateway Sacrament” they could make Catholics lose confidence in exclusive means of salvation through their Faith.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Death Without Baptism!
    « Reply #16 on: November 09, 2019, 07:54:57 AM »
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  • Uggh.  This is why I hope and pray that my mother, if she ever comes to this conclusion before she dies, asks for ME to baptize her.

    PS.  While we're on that subject, today is her 87th birthday.  Could you all say a quick prayer for her conversion and baptism?


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Death Without Baptism!
    « Reply #17 on: November 09, 2019, 08:15:36 AM »
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  • Just to add a clarification, the baptism should be done conditionally.
    Yes, this.

    From Canon Law 1917

    595. An adult should not be baptized except with his own knowledge and will, and after due instruction. He is, moreover, to be admonished to repent of his sins. In danger of death, if he cannot be thoroughly instructed in the principal mysteries of faith, it is sufficient for the conferring of Baptism that he show in some way his assent to these points of faith, and earnestly promises that he will keep the Commandments of the Christian religion.

    If he cannot even ask for Baptism, but has either before, or in his present condition manifested in some probable manner an intention of receiving Baptism, he may be baptized conditionally. If afterwards he gets well, and there remains doubt as to the validity of the Baptism, he may be baptized again conditionally. (Canon 752.)
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Death Without Baptism!
    « Reply #18 on: November 09, 2019, 08:22:43 AM »
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  • Yes, this.

    From Canon Law 1917

    595. An adult should not be baptized except with his own knowledge and will, and after due instruction. He is, moreover, to be admonished to repent of his sins. In danger of death, if he cannot be thoroughly instructed in the principal mysteries of faith, it is sufficient for the conferring of Baptism that he show in some way his assent to these points of faith, and earnestly promises that he will keep the Commandments of the Christian religion.

    If he cannot even ask for Baptism, but has either before, or in his present condition manifested in some probable manner an intention of receiving Baptism, he may be baptized conditionally. If afterwards he gets well, and there remains doubt as to the validity of the Baptism, he may be baptized again conditionally. (Canon 752.)
    Thanks for this.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Death Without Baptism!
    « Reply #19 on: November 09, 2019, 08:24:18 AM »
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  • Uggh.  This is why I hope and pray that my mother, if she ever comes to this conclusion before she dies, asks for ME to baptize her.

    PS.  While we're on that subject, today is her 87th birthday.  Could you all say a quick prayer for her conversion and baptism?
    I will light a candle for your dear mother tomorrow for sure. I am pretty sure that according to the law of the Church, unless she is gravely ill or in danger of death, you cannot licitly baptize her. Do what you can to get her to a priest or a priest to her before you do it....either way tho, hopefully she will receive it quickly and while she still can. This will be my petition when I light her candle tomorrow.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Death Without Baptism!
    « Reply #20 on: November 09, 2019, 08:25:34 AM »
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  • I should include this link for the 1917 Code of Canon Law
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Death Without Baptism!
    « Reply #21 on: November 09, 2019, 08:35:42 AM »
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  • I will light a candle for your dear mother tomorrow for sure. I am pretty sure that according to the law of the Church, unless she is gravely ill or in danger of death, you cannot licitly baptize her. Do what you can to get her to a priest or a priest to her before you do it....either way tho, hopefully she will receive it quickly and while she still can. This will be my petition when I light her candle tomorrow.  
    She is still in relatively good health thanks be to God, but she is 87. 
    Thank you for your prayers Stubborn.  


    Offline Matto

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    Re: Death Without Baptism!
    « Reply #22 on: November 09, 2019, 10:15:37 AM »
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  • Yes, this.

    From Canon Law 1917

    If he cannot even ask for Baptism, but has either before, or in his present condition manifested in some probable manner an intention of receiving Baptism, he may be baptized conditionally. 
    Thank you for posting this. This answers the question I had. So it seems he could have been baptized conditionally. I thought that was probably the way to go. The priest did not give all the details, it was just a short story in a longer sermon, so maybe he thought the man did not really want the baptism but the way he spoke about it and I heard it seemed bad and so I remembered it.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Death Without Baptism!
    « Reply #23 on: November 09, 2019, 12:23:24 PM »
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  • Thank you for posting this. This answers the question I had. So it seems he could have been baptized conditionally. I thought that was probably the way to go. The priest did not give all the details, it was just a short story in a longer sermon, so maybe he thought the man did not really want the baptism but the way he spoke about it and I heard it seemed bad and so I remembered it.

    It is as straightforward and as simple as what Our Lord said:  

    “Those who believe and are Baptized will be saved.”

    :incense:
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Death Without Baptism!
    « Reply #24 on: November 09, 2019, 02:59:54 PM »
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  • Lad, I think you know that I believe in BoD (obviously not in the broad sense), but what you wrote above is absolutely correct!

    Yes, that's why I said that the BoD question isn't really relevant here.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Death Without Baptism!
    « Reply #25 on: November 09, 2019, 03:06:12 PM »
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  • Yes, this.

    From Canon Law 1917

    595. An adult should not be baptized except with his own knowledge and will, and after due instruction. He is, moreover, to be admonished to repent of his sins. In danger of death, if he cannot be thoroughly instructed in the principal mysteries of faith, it is sufficient for the conferring of Baptism that he show in some way his assent to these points of faith, and earnestly promises that he will keep the Commandments of the Christian religion.

    If he cannot even ask for Baptism, but has either before, or in his present condition manifested in some probable manner an intention of receiving Baptism, he may be baptized conditionally. If afterwards he gets well, and there remains doubt as to the validity of the Baptism, he may be baptized again conditionally. (Canon 752.)

    Yes, this is what I meant when I said that Baptism is licit so long as there is SOME indication that he assents to the Catholic faith, and CLEARLY a stated desire "to become Catholic" counts.  No, you can't just randomly administer Baptism to someone who showed NO indication of wanting to become a Catholic.  But this clearly counts.  This was reiterated to me by a priest who was educated before Vatican II, who said that there must be SOME indication that the person wishes to enter the Church and become a Catholic.  There is ZERO requirement that this come directly from the dying person.  In fact, this priest refused to Baptize a dying person after interviewing a relative who requested it.  He asked her, "Did he give ANY indication whatsoever of having interest in becoming a Catholic?"  This person was unconscious at the time and ready to pass away.  When the relative answered, no, he regretted that he could not baptize him.  But he told me that there needed to be SOMEthing, i.e. the "show in some way" part in Canon Law.

    I believe that the conditional formula is "IF YOU WISH TO BE BAPTIZED," ... this way, if he doesn't, then there's no harm done to the Sacrament.  And the bar is extremely low for justifying a CONDITIONAL Baptism.


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Death Without Baptism!
    « Reply #26 on: November 09, 2019, 06:53:30 PM »
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  • Uggh.  This is why I hope and pray that my mother, if she ever comes to this conclusion before she dies, asks for ME to baptize her.

    PS.  While we're on that subject, today is her 87th birthday.  Could you all say a quick prayer for her conversion and baptism?
    Done! Please say one for my mother too as she is a conservative fallen away Catholic. She will be 86 in December.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Death Without Baptism!
    « Reply #27 on: November 09, 2019, 08:46:57 PM »
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  • Done! Please say one for my mother too as she is a conservative fallen away Catholic. She will be 86 in December.
    Certainly!  And thank you!  :)

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Death Without Baptism!
    « Reply #28 on: November 09, 2019, 09:08:46 PM »
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  • Thanks Vermont! 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Death Without Baptism!
    « Reply #29 on: November 10, 2019, 11:20:39 AM »
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  • Yes, the Priest definitely should have baptized him. Even an absolute Baptism could probably be done in this situation, but at least a conditional Baptism definitely should have been performed. The form used could be, "If you are able to be baptized, I baptize you in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".