Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => The Feeneyism Ghetto => Topic started by: Matto on November 08, 2019, 07:30:50 PM
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I want feeneyites and non feeneyites to respond to this. This was something told us by a traditional priest in a sermon a while ago that really bothered me. I will not reveal the priest's name. Let me know what you think, ESPECIALLY if you DO believe in Baptism of Desire.
There was a man dying in the hospital that did not ask for a priest but was saying Catholic prayers and told the nurses that he wanted to become a Catholic. He was never baptized. He did not call for a priest. He got worse and became unconscious and was nearing death. The nurses remembered that he wanted to become a Catholic and called a priest (It was not explained how they called a traditional priest and not a Novus Ordo one) and they told him that the man was not baptized but told them that he wanted to become a Catholic. The priest arrived and the man was unconscious. He knew the man was unbaptized and expressed interest in becoming a Catholic. However the priest could not talk to the man and confirm his desire to be baptized and profess the faith. So the priest let him die unbaptized and hoped that he would be saved by Baptism of Desire.
What think you? This really bothered me as I would have thought he should certainly be baptized. Was this what the priest was supposed to do? Letting the man die unbaptized?
This was the story as I remember it being told in the sermon.
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Modern BODers have developed such an aversion to baptism that they avoid doing it whenever possible. After all, why go to the hassle and get someone's hair all wet if BOD will save them anyway?
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This is absolutely horrible. All that's needed is SOME INDICATION that the person might want to become a Catholic to perform Baptism under those circuмstances. That was given by the testimony of the person who called for the priest. If the person knew enough to want to become Catholic, he presumably knew about the core articles of faith, Our Lord and the Holy Trinity. If there's NO indication of an intent or desire to become Catholic, that's when the priest cannot baptize.
I would NOT want to be that priest on his judgment day. This is unbelievable. Was this a neo-SSPX priest?
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Whether or not someone believes in BoD is absolutely immaterial. Even if you believe in it, the subjective dispositions required for that are so much more difficult to attain, especially having never received the graces of the Sacraments. That's like a priest saying, well, I won't give him absolution and will just hope that he made a perfect act of contrition. That's like saying, I won't give him Last Rights thinking that he'll probably make it.
This priest should be immediately suspended and sent off to a monastery.
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With all these idiots talking about "implicit" this and "implicit" that, if the person says, "I want to become a Catholic," that implicitly means embracing the Catholic faith and also an intention to do what it takes to become Catholic, i.e. to get baptized. There's no need to elicit an explicit "I wish to be baptized."
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. . . I do not think this was a resistance issue. But it was an SSPX priest who I otherwise thought was good. I wondered if what he did was according to his training or if it was on his own prerogative. I do not remember the year of his ordination, but he is old enough that I am pretty sure he was trained by Bishop Williamson and I had never heard him speak badly of Williamson, though he did not support the resistance. Nobody else mentioned their unease at hearing what he had done, and I did not bring it up to the other parishioners or to the priest.
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If I were the nurse, I would have kicked the priest out of the room and baptized him myself.
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. . .
I was just inquiring whether it was SSPX because this would be a commentary on the fact that the pastoral theology at the new seminary is woefully inadequate.
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Baptism of desire is irrelevent here. The man expressed his wish to be baptised, a nurse called a priest and informed him of the situation. In spite of knowing that the man had expressed the wish, (why would the nurse lie about this?) the priest refused. INcredible! Absolutely horrible!
Under whose jurisdiction is this priest performing (or rather refusing to perform) his function as a priest?
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The priest did not give all the details as it was just a little story and not the main point of the sermon. He said the man expressed a desire to become a Catholic to the nurse. I am not sure how much desire and how strong the desire was but it was known that the man was not baptized so they must have talked about it. It was enough desire that the nurse called for a priest when he was dying. He came. And because he could not talk to the man because he was unconscious he decided not to baptize him. That is what was said to us. Perhaps when he talked to the nurse he determined the man did not express enough desire to be baptized or that the nurse exaggerated this desire or perhaps it was vague so it was better not to. But I just thought that he should have baptized him the way it was described by him. Perhaps the priest knew more and did not express it and maybe he thought the man did not really want to be a Catholic and the nurse was exaggerating his desire and the nurse just called a priest when every man was dying. But it troubled me when I heard it the way he said it. When he said it I thought to myself "Oh no. The poor man is in hell now." If there is a BOD I hope he received it. I don't know why I am talking about it here and now but it came to me and I thought it was worth discussing.
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There's a huge need for trad Catholics to assist disoriented Catholics nowadays.
Just visiting such a person in the hospital will bring many graces.
A simple Rosary will open the door to these souls. It may provide the opportunity to offer a Brown Scapular or even a Baptism.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2F65%2F51%2Fd3%2F6551d3a323d0550a42d53081328212b6.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
Venerable Edel Quinn
Legion of Mary
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This was the story as I remember it being told in the sermon.
I can only hope there's more to the story than what you wrote. I cannot imagine being in the room with an unbaptized dying person who had expressed a desire to become Catholic, and not baptizing him right away.
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What think you? This really bothered me as I would have thought he should certainly be baptized. Was this what the priest was supposed to do? Letting the man die unbaptized?
This was the story as I remember it being told in the sermon.
Man, talk about a head spinning story, it bothers me too! The priest was supposed to baptize him! It's catechism 101 that in danger of death, baptism must not be delayed! A priest's #1 priority before anything else is the same as the Church's, the salvation of souls.
While it is true that under normal circuмstances, the recipient must elicit an act of faith before he can be baptized, being in danger of death, I do not see how it can even be questioned - under the circuмstances, he did that by saying he wanted to become a Catholic.
Too bad the nurse was ignorant of the Catholic faith, she could have elicited an act of faith from him then baptized him, then called the priest. Too bad the man was ignorant of the Catholic faith too, because he could have told her to baptize him. Too bad the priest was dumber then the both of them put together, because he could have saved that man's soul, but didn't.
Hopefully you are not remembering the story correctly Matto because this one stinks bad.
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Whether or not someone believes in BoD is absolutely immaterial. Even if you believe in it, the subjective dispositions required for that are so much more difficult to attain, especially having never received the graces of the Sacraments. That's like a priest saying, well, I won't give him absolution and will just hope that he made a perfect act of contrition. That's like saying, I won't give him Last Rights thinking that he'll probably make it.
This priest should be immediately suspended and sent off to a monastery.
Lad, I think you know that I believe in BoD (obviously not in the broad sense), but what you wrote above is absolutely correct!
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Just to add a clarification, the baptism should be done conditionally.
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I can only hope there's more to the story than what you wrote. I cannot imagine being in the room with an unbaptized dying person who had expressed a desire to become Catholic, and not baptizing him right away.
On these pages, we have argued the root cause of such a problem, which is the (4) Baptisms supposedly espoused by +ABL in his 1886 book “Open Letter to Confused Catholics”.
Fast forward 33 years and you have SSPX priests with flawed formations sitting at the deathbeds of highly prospective converts... doing nothing.
As Father Feeney analyzed it:
150 years ago, the rabbis knew if they could undermine the “Gateway Sacrament” they could make Catholics lose confidence in exclusive means of salvation through their Faith.
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Uggh. This is why I hope and pray that my mother, if she ever comes to this conclusion before she dies, asks for ME to baptize her.
PS. While we're on that subject, today is her 87th birthday. Could you all say a quick prayer for her conversion and baptism?
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Just to add a clarification, the baptism should be done conditionally.
Yes, this.
From Canon Law 1917
595. An adult should not be baptized except with his own knowledge and will, and after due instruction. He is, moreover, to be admonished to repent of his sins. In danger of death, if he cannot be thoroughly instructed in the principal mysteries of faith, it is sufficient for the conferring of Baptism that he show in some way his assent to these points of faith, and earnestly promises that he will keep the Commandments of the Christian religion.
If he cannot even ask for Baptism, but has either before, or in his present condition manifested in some probable manner an intention of receiving Baptism, he may be baptized conditionally. If afterwards he gets well, and there remains doubt as to the validity of the Baptism, he may be baptized again conditionally. (Canon 752.)
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Yes, this.
From Canon Law 1917
595. An adult should not be baptized except with his own knowledge and will, and after due instruction. He is, moreover, to be admonished to repent of his sins. In danger of death, if he cannot be thoroughly instructed in the principal mysteries of faith, it is sufficient for the conferring of Baptism that he show in some way his assent to these points of faith, and earnestly promises that he will keep the Commandments of the Christian religion.
If he cannot even ask for Baptism, but has either before, or in his present condition manifested in some probable manner an intention of receiving Baptism, he may be baptized conditionally. If afterwards he gets well, and there remains doubt as to the validity of the Baptism, he may be baptized again conditionally. (Canon 752.)
Thanks for this.
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Uggh. This is why I hope and pray that my mother, if she ever comes to this conclusion before she dies, asks for ME to baptize her.
PS. While we're on that subject, today is her 87th birthday. Could you all say a quick prayer for her conversion and baptism?
I will light a candle for your dear mother tomorrow for sure. I am pretty sure that according to the law of the Church, unless she is gravely ill or in danger of death, you cannot licitly baptize her. Do what you can to get her to a priest or a priest to her before you do it....either way tho, hopefully she will receive it quickly and while she still can. This will be my petition when I light her candle tomorrow.
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I should include this link for the 1917 Code of Canon Law (https://ia800900.us.archive.org/12/items/newcanonlaw00woywuoft/newcanonlaw00woywuoft.pdf)
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I will light a candle for your dear mother tomorrow for sure. I am pretty sure that according to the law of the Church, unless she is gravely ill or in danger of death, you cannot licitly baptize her. Do what you can to get her to a priest or a priest to her before you do it....either way tho, hopefully she will receive it quickly and while she still can. This will be my petition when I light her candle tomorrow.
She is still in relatively good health thanks be to God, but she is 87.
Thank you for your prayers Stubborn.
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Yes, this.
From Canon Law 1917
If he cannot even ask for Baptism, but has either before, or in his present condition manifested in some probable manner an intention of receiving Baptism, he may be baptized conditionally.
Thank you for posting this. This answers the question I had. So it seems he could have been baptized conditionally. I thought that was probably the way to go. The priest did not give all the details, it was just a short story in a longer sermon, so maybe he thought the man did not really want the baptism but the way he spoke about it and I heard it seemed bad and so I remembered it.
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Thank you for posting this. This answers the question I had. So it seems he could have been baptized conditionally. I thought that was probably the way to go. The priest did not give all the details, it was just a short story in a longer sermon, so maybe he thought the man did not really want the baptism but the way he spoke about it and I heard it seemed bad and so I remembered it.
It is as straightforward and as simple as what Our Lord said:
“Those who believe and are Baptized will be saved.”
:incense:
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Lad, I think you know that I believe in BoD (obviously not in the broad sense), but what you wrote above is absolutely correct!
Yes, that's why I said that the BoD question isn't really relevant here.
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Yes, this.
From Canon Law 1917
595. An adult should not be baptized except with his own knowledge and will, and after due instruction. He is, moreover, to be admonished to repent of his sins. In danger of death, if he cannot be thoroughly instructed in the principal mysteries of faith, it is sufficient for the conferring of Baptism that he show in some way his assent to these points of faith, and earnestly promises that he will keep the Commandments of the Christian religion.
If he cannot even ask for Baptism, but has either before, or in his present condition manifested in some probable manner an intention of receiving Baptism, he may be baptized conditionally. If afterwards he gets well, and there remains doubt as to the validity of the Baptism, he may be baptized again conditionally. (Canon 752.)
Yes, this is what I meant when I said that Baptism is licit so long as there is SOME indication that he assents to the Catholic faith, and CLEARLY a stated desire "to become Catholic" counts. No, you can't just randomly administer Baptism to someone who showed NO indication of wanting to become a Catholic. But this clearly counts. This was reiterated to me by a priest who was educated before Vatican II, who said that there must be SOME indication that the person wishes to enter the Church and become a Catholic. There is ZERO requirement that this come directly from the dying person. In fact, this priest refused to Baptize a dying person after interviewing a relative who requested it. He asked her, "Did he give ANY indication whatsoever of having interest in becoming a Catholic?" This person was unconscious at the time and ready to pass away. When the relative answered, no, he regretted that he could not baptize him. But he told me that there needed to be SOMEthing, i.e. the "show in some way" part in Canon Law.
I believe that the conditional formula is "IF YOU WISH TO BE BAPTIZED," ... this way, if he doesn't, then there's no harm done to the Sacrament. And the bar is extremely low for justifying a CONDITIONAL Baptism.
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Uggh. This is why I hope and pray that my mother, if she ever comes to this conclusion before she dies, asks for ME to baptize her.
PS. While we're on that subject, today is her 87th birthday. Could you all say a quick prayer for her conversion and baptism?
Done! Please say one for my mother too as she is a conservative fallen away Catholic. She will be 86 in December.
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Done! Please say one for my mother too as she is a conservative fallen away Catholic. She will be 86 in December.
Certainly! And thank you! :)
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Thanks Vermont!
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Yes, the Priest definitely should have baptized him. Even an absolute Baptism could probably be done in this situation, but at least a conditional Baptism definitely should have been performed. The form used could be, "If you are able to be baptized, I baptize you in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".
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Yes, the Priest definitely should have baptized him. Even an absolute Baptism could probably be done in this situation, but at least a conditional Baptism definitely should have been performed. The form used could be, "If you are able to be baptized, I baptize you in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".
Canon law calls for a conditional baptism, why would you say that “an absolute baptism could probably be done”?
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Yes, the Priest definitely should have baptized him. Even an absolute Baptism could probably be done in this situation, but at least a conditional Baptism definitely should have been performed. The form used could be, "If you are able to be baptized, I baptize you in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".
I think that the conditional form "If you are able to be baptized ..." is for cases where there's doubt about whether the person is still alive. I imagine that the form for this scenario would be something like, "If you wish/desire to be baptized ..."
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(https://i.imgflip.com/3gopf7.gif) (https://imgflip.com/gif/3gopf7)
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As Father Feeney pointed out, the more popular the notion of desire becomes, the less people actually desire Baptism; instead, they begin to desire the desire for Baptism. So Baptism of Desire actually undermines Baptism of Desire.
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If I were the nurse, I would have kicked the priest out of the room and baptized him myself.
^This.