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Author Topic: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD  (Read 21112 times)

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Offline Deusvult

Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2025, 10:11:26 AM »
Quote from: Stubborn on February 20, 2025, 10:02:14 AM
Yes, it is possible - after all, who knows the mind of God outside of what He has already revealed? But we know God wants all men to be saved so there is nothing to stop God from providing a valid sacrament to the person you speak of before he dies - were such a person to exist.


 
If there is nothing to prevent God from providing a valid sacrament for this person, then why do you say it is possible then? It seems to me that if the criteria I have given, if God wants the salvation of all men, it would be absurd for this man not to be saved. What more could he have done to prove to God his sincere will?
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2025, 10:11:48 AM »
Quote from: Gray2023 on February 19, 2025, 01:24:57 PM
I didn't read what everyone wrote, yet.  So I apologize if this was discussed.

Limbo of the Just existed before Jesus' death, when he went to hell he visited these souls.  I assumed he took them to heaven and that part of Hell was closed.  (sorry just my simplicity of thought)  From your discussion it sounds like it may not have closed, and others continue to go to Limbo of the Just.  These would be people who believed, but were never baptized.  For clarification the Limbo of the Just is a place of natural happiness, but not of the beatific vision, right?  Would this be where miscarried babies go? 

Now this is where I will probably cause heads to spin.

Now here is why this topic becomes very sensitive.  If a mother wants to go to Heaven, and has had miscarriages, and is told that the baby is in a natural place of happiness, but not Heaven and if Heaven is the happiest place, then how could it be happy for the mother who lost a child and will never see that child again.  Do you think that those in Heaven can visit those in the Limbo of the Just.  It is just mothers are constantly told that Heaven will have everything you could want and more, but most Catholic women want there family and friends to be there.  Most of the time when we bring up these thoughts we get "you will understand when you are there", but for miscarriages, that seems kind of insensitive.  Probably some men feel this way, too.

Thoughts?

Personally I could handle EENS and BoD better, if this topic was addressed.
Fr. Feeney:
"Unbaptized infants who die go to Limbo. Notice, they do not go to Hell. Also notice, they do not go to Heaven.
Unbaptized adults who die go to Hell. Notice they do not go either to Limbo or to Heaven." - Bread of Life

Nobody knows if those in Heaven can visit those in the Limbo, it does not seem possible imo. Remember the story of Lazarus and the rich man - there is a great gulf between heaven and hell (limbo?) so that neither side can cross to the other. Luke 16:26

The sad situation offers the mother comfort in this world in knowing that her baby is not suffering.
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2025, 10:21:50 AM »
Quote from: Deusvult on February 20, 2025, 10:11:26 AM
If there is nothing to prevent God from providing a valid sacrament for this person, then why do you say it is possible then? It seems to me that if the criteria I have given, if God wants the salvation of all men, it would be absurd for this man not to be saved. What more could he have done to prove to God his sincere will?
I was answering it was possible to: Is it possible that God will still refuse him salvation? Will this person learn by surprise at death that he was not baptized and then, too bad for you?

We do not know what God knows, perhaps God saw through his outward sincerity as being false. Who knows? Because God made the sacrament a requirement, it is ultimately up to God to provide it - same as He provides it for everyone who has ever been and ever will be baptized. 

But you are talking a hypothetical situation....someone not baptized who does not fall into mortal sin is imo, impossible. 
 
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2025, 10:46:41 AM »
Quote from: Stubborn on February 20, 2025, 10:11:48 AM
Nobody knows if those in Heaven can visit those in the Limbo, it does not seem possible imo. Remember the story of Lazarus and the rich man - there is a great gulf between heaven and hell (limbo?) so that neither side can cross to the other. Luke 16:26

There's no reason those in Heaven can't visit Limbo.  Why not?  So, the Rich Man was clearly in Hell, not Limbo (of the Fathers), whereas the Lazarus was the one in the "bosom of Abraham", i.e. Limbo of the Fathers.
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Offline OABrownson1876

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Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2025, 10:51:23 AM »
Quote from: Stubborn on February 20, 2025, 10:21:50 AM
I was answering it was possible to: Is it possible that God will still refuse him salvation? Will this person learn by surprise at death that he was not baptized and then, too bad for you?

We do not know what God knows, perhaps God saw through his outward sincerity as being false. Who knows? Because God made the sacrament a requirement, it is ultimately up to God to provide it - same as He provides it for everyone who has ever been and ever will be baptized. 

But you are talking a hypothetical situation....someone not baptized who does not fall into mortal sin is imo, impossible. 
 
I have mentioned before in a previous thread, in the life of St. Martin of Tours, some girl died unbaptized.  The monks knew that she was not baptized.  They kept her body in the monastery for six months and prayed to St. Martin.  St. Martin showed up at the monastery, raised the girl to life, baptized her, and she died. 

Where was the girl's soul during these six months?  If she had baptism of desire, then why water baptism?  
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