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Author Topic: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD  (Read 21111 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2025, 09:00:53 AM »
This is typical Newchurch muddle-headedness, to imagine that hell is equally bad for everyone.

See, I don't think it's just NewChurch or even primarily NewChurch.  NewChurch just gets around the problem where they "hope" that ALL will be saved, either by way of the Origen heresy (as Bergoglio has articulated it), or just because God wants to save everyone, so Hell is empty.

But Trads have this same conception of Hell, that everyone who isn't saved and doesn't have the Beatific Vision goes to some torture chamber for all eternity.

Offline OABrownson1876

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Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2025, 09:22:17 AM »
I remember Vin Lewis in one of his talks said that on the last day of the world it was possible that those not validly baptized will be baptized.  He theorized that as long as time remains, there is an oppurtunity to recieve the sacraments. 

In a separate note, I remember reading the life of Dr. Simone Weil, she was a Jewess in France, had a PhD in Philosophy, and she died in 1943.  She once said that the reason she did into enter the Catholic Church was because of the dogma Extra Eccesiam Nulla Salus.  She felt that she knew some "good hearted Jews who must be in heaven too."  This is just emotional hogwash!     

Once again, Brownson in his 1874 article on Extra Ecclesiam says on positive/negative vincible/invincible ignorance:

“But they who are merely negative infidels, or unbelievers purely through ignorance, in consequence of never having heard about the Gospel, are not guilty of the sin of infidelity?  Certainly not.  Every Catholic is presumed to know that the 68th proposition of Baius, Infidelitas pure negativa in his, quibus Christus non est praedicatus, peccatum est, 'Purely negative infidelity in those among whom Christ has not been preached, is a sin,' is a condemned proposition, and therefore that purely negative infidelity in those to whom Christ has not been preached is inculpable – as St. Augustine teaches, the penalty of sin, not sin itself.  But who therefore concludes that they are in the way of salvation, or that they can be saved without becoming living members of the body of our Lord?  ‘Infidels of this sort,’ says St. Thomas, ‘are damned, indeed, for other sins which without faith cannot be remitted, but they are not damned for the sin of infidelity.  Whence the Lord says, “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin”; that is, as St. Augustine explains it, would not have the sin of not believing in Christ.’  There is a considerable distance between being free from the formal sin of infidelity, and being in the way of salvation.  No infidel, positive or negative, in vincible or invincible ignorance, can be saved; ‘for without faith it is impossible to please God,’ and ‘he that believeth not shall be damned,’ and faith in voto not in re, is inconceivable.  Neither of the subdivisions of the unbelieving class of our countrymen are, then, in the way of salvation." 

("Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus," April 1874, Brownson's Quarterly Review)


Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2025, 09:23:34 AM »
We can't confuse some "sincerely wanting" with having the will, intention, and desire to do something.  It also depends on his motives.  Sure, who doesn't want to be happy forever?  But is the person WILLING to do what it takes and does the person actually love God, or just want something for himself.  That's one of the worst problems with this notion of Baptism of Desire.  Latin word mis-translated as simple desire is votum, which is more like a vow, an act of the will (word derives from willing something), and even Catholic Encyclopedia states that this term refers to having all the dispositions indicated by Trent as necessary for receiving the Sacrament.

With that said, if God allows someone to be invalidly baptized, He has His reasons, just like He has His reasons for having various people die as unbaptized infants.  If God willed this person to have the Baptism corrected, then He'll take care of it, bring its invalidity to light, or even work some extraordinary and miraculous thing.  There was such a case in the life of St. Peter Claver, where a woman had been a devout Catholic for years, a daily Communicant, etc.  She died without the Last Sacraments.  St. Peter was inspired to raise her back to life because he knew something was amiss.  So he started to hear her confession and then suddenly received the light that she had never been validly baptized.  St. Peter baptized her, and then she died.  Now, this woman reported to St. Peter that after she died she was told at one point that she could "go no further" due to lacking the wedding garment.  So here's a woman who had been a devout daily Communicant and evidently her sincere desire and intention to practice the faith did not suffice for entry into the Kingdom.  But sine she was among God's elect, He took care of the problem, in this case miraculously.  He'd do the same as needed for anyone else, perhaps bilocating someone to that person's side in his last moments, or having an angel baptized the individual (nothing to prevent that ... so what's the need for "BoD"?), or simply work in an ordinary way by (as happened in a couple cases in the United States), having some video come to light where this deacon had been baptizing invalidly for decades.

This kind of speculation here never ends well.  We simply trust God that everything He does is the most Merciful and most Just thing He could possibly do.  And that's all we need to know, and it's nefas to inquire further.
When I speak of someone who sincerely wants to be saved, I am speaking of someone who has faith and seeks to fulfill God's will and sanctify himself, who prays the Rosary every day, goes to Mass regularly, etc. If this person does not fall into mortal sin, will this person necessarily be saved? Is it possible that God will still refuse him salvation? Will this person learn by surprise at death that he was not baptized and then, too bad for you?

Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2025, 10:01:20 AM »
See, I don't think it's just NewChurch or even primarily NewChurch.  NewChurch just gets around the problem where they "hope" that ALL will be saved, either by way of the Origen heresy (as Bergoglio has articulated it), or just because God wants to save everyone, so Hell is empty.

But Trads have this same conception of Hell, that everyone who isn't saved and doesn't have the Beatific Vision goes to some torture chamber for all eternity.

But do they think that hell is equally bad for everyone?  I tend to doubt it.  Traditional Catholic teaching is that the punishments of hell will be commensurate with the gravity of the sins that put the soul there.

Online Stubborn

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Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2025, 10:02:14 AM »
When I speak of someone who sincerely wants to be saved, I am speaking of someone who has faith and seeks to fulfill God's will and sanctify himself, who prays the Rosary every day, goes to Mass regularly, etc. If this person does not fall into mortal sin, will this person necessarily be saved? Is it possible that God will still refuse him salvation? Will this person learn by surprise at death that he was not baptized and then, too bad for you?
Yes, it is possible - after all, who knows the mind of God outside of what He has already revealed? But we know God wants all men to be saved so there is nothing to stop God from providing a valid sacrament to the person you speak of before he dies - were such a person to exist.