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Author Topic: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD  (Read 7852 times)

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Offline WorldsAway

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Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2025, 04:17:27 PM »
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  • That last paragraph is important.  Now one criticism the anti-BoDers get is that we deny God's will to save all people, and that everyone must have the active concrete opportunity to be saved.  So I always ask about the unbaptized infants.  What about them?  I always get crickets in reponse.  Then I explain as you did that God's Mercy made it so they ended up in a place of perfect happiness because foresaw that if they had received the gift of faith they would have been damned and would suffer forever in Hell.
    This seems like the most reasonable answer to the salvific will/unbaptized infant dilemma but it still raises the question of why  God did not allow the infant to be baptised before it died (at least in the cases where the parents would have baptised the child had it lived).
    If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you [John 15:108

    Online AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
    « Reply #31 on: February 19, 2025, 04:20:46 PM »
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  • This seems like the most reasonable answer to the salvific will/unbaptized infant dilemma but it still raises the question of why  God did not allow the infant to be baptised before it died (at least in the cases where the parents would have baptised the child had it lived).
    Because salvation is a gift, no one deserves it. And humans have free will, these people murder their own unborn children, since that is their will God allows it and does mercy by allowing the unbaptised infant into limbo. Had the child lived and grown up they would have gone to hell. And if you ask why not baptised without growing up? We look at it in reverse, the fact that they are in limbo means they weren't among the elect so think of the implications.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
    « Reply #32 on: February 19, 2025, 04:26:20 PM »
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  • Check the post you're referencing here again, bud.  That's what.  You'll notice that I was NOT responding to you but to QABrownson1876's comments.  He was describing Orestes Brownson's position, to which I threw in my own observations.  Despite your ego believing that I was responding to you, I didn't even read what you wrote, because quite honestly I don't care about your opinion.


    That's not entirely convincing, since the first line of your response is:

    Quote
    So what if Brownson believed in an explicit Baptism of Desire?

    OA's quote wasn't concerned with BoD, while mine was, and indicated OB's view as to "explicit Baptism of Desire." 

    But technically you were responding to OA's response containing my quote of OB on "explicit b
    aptism of desire." Got it. 

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
    « Reply #33 on: February 19, 2025, 05:27:11 PM »
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  • Because salvation is a gift, no one deserves it.
    Yeah it really boils down to that. I was thinking more along the lines of a Catholic family where the mother has a miscarriage, but that is a good point about starting at the end..ultimately they did not merit salvation, so them dying an unbaptised infant must be the "best case" scenario. 
    If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you [John 15:108

    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
    « Reply #34 on: February 19, 2025, 10:25:45 PM »
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  • It's for that reason that I hold there to be a huge surge in abortions, with 73 million per year worldwide, every year now for many decades.  We're approaching quickly a billion aborted infants ... and they will all enjoy perfect natural happiness forever.  What a great Mercy from God ... because in this wicked, corrupt world, especially if you were to be born to and raised by parents who would think nothing of murdering you, your chances for salvation are slim to none anyway, so the less a chance people have of being saved, the more you'll see them being aborted and going to Limbo for eternity ... where they will praise God in perfect bliss for His Mercy through all eternity.
    And to this last point I remember Fr. Wathen saying that had these aborted souls received baptism and gone on to lead adult lives, the vast majority of them would have been damned; it is a mercy, per se, that they were spared their adult lives in this Valley of Tears.  
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
    « Reply #35 on: February 20, 2025, 07:58:48 AM »
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  • And to this last point I remember Fr. Wathen saying that had these aborted souls received baptism and gone on to lead adult lives, the vast majority of them would have been damned; it is a mercy, per se, that they were spared their adult lives in this Valley of Tears. 

    Or even if they hadn't received the Sacrament of Baptism.

    God wants everyone elevated to the supernatural state, since the lowest supernatural happiness infinitely exceeds the greatest possible natural happiness, but not having the supernatural happiness causes no suffering, since we do not have the faculties to even comprehend what that is, and, as I said, we experience suffering due to a privation of our nature.  Now, why God allows some to live and then lose their souls while others to be killed as infants and therefore to at least enjoy perfect natural happiness, He alone knows, but we know that He gives the best possible chance for everyone depending also somehwat on what they deserve.  So, for instance, God might foresee that no matter what conditions a certain souls ends up in, he's going to damn himself, whereas for some of the aborted ones maybe they wouldn't have been filled with such malice just wouldn't have much of a fighting chance.

    As St. Augustine says, those who start speculating about God's Mercy and Justice inevitably involve themselves in a "vortex of confusion", and we really needn't spend much time on this, as second-guessing the Mercy of God has caused the shipwreck of many a soul.  When we get to Heaven, God willing, we'll understand and see that everything God has done is at the same time both the most Merciful and most Just thing that He could possibly have done, given human free will in the mix.

    But as soon as I see people thinking, "We must have BoD because it wouldn't be fair." ... if you think it's a legitimate line of inquiry, that's opening such a massive can of worms that, what's next?  "Well, it wouldn't be fair is an unbaptized infant had no chance to be saved."  "Well, it wouldn't be fair that this person was born into a Catholic family but that one was born into a drug-gang family in the hood." etc. etc.  That type of thinking never ends well, since our pea brains are simply incapable of comprehending the complexity of the economy of salvation.  God alone knows that if this person does this, then it'll cause that, which in turn will cause this, and that in turn will cause something else, and each individual's free will, how it interacts with any other individual's free will, etc. ... God alone knows and the hubris of second-guessing what God should or should not do has destroyed many souls.

    Unfortunately, as St. Augustine realized, this is precisely the very thinking behind BoD, and so he rejected it as a "vortex of confusion" that anyone who wishes to be Catholic must reject.  Sadly, all the anti-EENS "theology" that's been done is NOT based on logic or reason, where we examine what God has revealed and draw conclusions from it, but from this emotional premise of "oh, if this person dies before Baptism, it wouldn't be fair ... it wouldn't be NITHE of God to do".  THAT IS NOT THEOLOGY.  If God does make various extraordinary provisions to save some souls, then glory be to Him, but He has chosen not to reveal such things to us, so we go with what we know, namely, that no one who does not receive the Sacrament of Baptism can be saved.  If we're wrong, as I've said, so what?  God will still save His elect, regardless of my incorrect opinon.  If we're right, then the people promoting BoD are doing great damage to souls.  That's the bottom line here.

    But the reason this is a huge issue ... and why I disagree with Matthew that it's meaningless (ideas matter, Matthew, as Bishop Williamson emphasized constantly) ... is because ALL THE ERRORS OF VATICAN II HINGE ON THIS QUESTION.  Why can't Trads get that through their thick skulls.

    MAJOR:  There can be no salvation outside the Church.  Dogma.
    MINOR:  Prots, schismatics, Jews, Muslims, pagans can be saved.
    CONCLUSION:  Prots, schismatics, Jews, Muslims, pagans can be in the Church.

    That conclusions is in fact Vatican II in a nutshell, and if I believed the above premise (in the MINOR), I would accept all of Vatican II immediately.  I would have to.  EVERY ERROR in Vatican II except perhaps, oh, collegiality, derives from this soteriology and the resulting ecclesiology, as even Rahner recognized and admitted.  Even religious liberty.  Why?  Because if we have no subjectivized the criteria for salvation, where we please God and save our souls by doing what we (even erroneously) think is right, then since we have a right to save our souls and please God, we have a right to do what we (even erroneously) think is right.

    That's the subjectivism that Bishop Williamson was one of the few to identify as THE ROOT cause of the Vatican II errors ... it's just that he failed to take it to its final conclusion with regard to EENS and the V2 ecclesiology.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
    « Reply #36 on: February 20, 2025, 08:08:30 AM »
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  • Because salvation is a gift, no one deserves it.

    So much so that we don't even have the faculties (the potential) to experience God supernaturally ....

    That is actually what the character of the Sacrament of Baptism does and why it's impossible to have the beatific vision without that Sacramental character.  Due to the BoD craze, many theologians have minimized the Sacramental character into meaninglessness ... where it's little more than a non-repeatability marker and some badge of honor that some people in Heaven have and others lack.  That's nonsense.  This Sacramental character actually imprints the likeness of God's Son onto our souls so that we're recognized as members of the family of the Holy Trinity, by supernatural adoption, and this character also gives us the faculties to be able to see God face to face, as He is, in the beatific vision.  It's like we're getting a new "sense", a new power ... that we do not inherently have in our natural created soul.  As such, no one is owed this, and there's no "punishment" whatsoever involved with NOT being given this gift, of not being elevated to this supernatural state.  If God gives the possibility of perfect natural happiness to everyone, that's all that Justice requires, and God is perfectly just.

    Online Deusvult

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    Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
    « Reply #37 on: February 20, 2025, 08:44:18 AM »
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  • Can we believe that anyone who sincerely wants, I mean sincerely, to be saved, would necessarily be saved? Will this person receive baptism sooner or later? Or is it possible that even this person will be damned, for lack of predestination? For example, let's take a Novus Ordo guy who sincerely practices his faith and thinks he is baptized but in reality is not, because the priest invented a formula, but he does not know it, how can this person receive baptism if he thinks he is already baptized? This is worrying, isn't it?



    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
    « Reply #38 on: February 20, 2025, 08:48:57 AM »
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  • I believe that the biggest animus working against the acceptance of EENS dogma has been this strange monolithic view of Hell, where some naturally virtuous Jєωιѕн grandma, who maybe even lays down her life for her grandchildren, ends up burning in Hell right next to Joe Stalin, in some monolithic cauldron of fire.  But even one of the Catholic EENS definitions explains that each individual's punishment is commensurate to his sins.  We all know some naturally virtuous, genuinely kind and generous people who die without the faith, so do those people get hurled into a cauldron of fire to be burned forever next to the serial murderers who are also there?

    This is typical Newchurch muddle-headedness, to imagine that hell is equally bad for everyone.  Another such example is the inability of Newchurchers to think in terms of mortal or venial sin --- I once heard someone grasping at the concept of a "moral sin" (they'd heard the terminology but didn't know how to process it, similar to how people nowadays use the term "immaculate conception" to refer to parthenogenesis, "yes, she got pregnant, and we know it wasn't an immaculate conception") --- and not to understand the concept of "grave" sin.  I also heard someone else say that a "grave" sin is a sin against any one of the Ten Commandments, but when you exclude those, you don't have many sins left, the Precepts of the Church would be about all.

    Some of this confusion may be by design, or to put a finer point on it, to decouple gravely sinful matter, committed with sufficient reflection and full consent of the will, from loss of one's salvation.  This probably rears its head most of all in sins of the flesh and sins involving marriage and the reproductive faculty, such that they might be willing to concede that such things as contraception, self-gratification, cohabiting without marriage (or living in an invalid marriage) and being sɛҳuąƖly engaged, and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ activity, are indeed "grave", but do not exclude someone from salvation.  That's the kind of assurance the world itches to hear.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
    « Reply #39 on: February 20, 2025, 08:52:34 AM »
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  • Can we believe that anyone who sincerely wants, I mean sincerely, to be saved, would necessarily be saved? Will this person receive baptism sooner or later? Or is it possible that even this person will be damned, for lack of predestination? For example, let's take a Novus Ordo guy who sincerely practices his faith and thinks he is baptized but in reality is not, because the priest invented a formula, but he does not know it, how can this person receive baptism if he thinks he is already baptized? This is worrying, isn't it?

    We can't confuse some "sincerely wanting" with having the will, intention, and desire to do something.  It also depends on his motives.  Sure, who doesn't want to be happy forever?  But is the person WILLING to do what it takes and does the person actually love God, or just want something for himself.  That's one of the worst problems with this notion of Baptism of Desire.  Latin word mis-translated as simple desire is votum, which is more like a vow, an act of the will (word derives from willing something), and even Catholic Encyclopedia states that this term refers to having all the dispositions indicated by Trent as necessary for receiving the Sacrament.

    With that said, if God allows someone to be invalidly baptized, He has His reasons, just like He has His reasons for having various people die as unbaptized infants.  If God willed this person to have the Baptism corrected, then He'll take care of it, bring its invalidity to light, or even work some extraordinary and miraculous thing.  There was such a case in the life of St. Peter Claver, where a woman had been a devout Catholic for years, a daily Communicant, etc.  She died without the Last Sacraments.  St. Peter was inspired to raise her back to life because he knew something was amiss.  So he started to hear her confession and then suddenly received the light that she had never been validly baptized.  St. Peter baptized her, and then she died.  Now, this woman reported to St. Peter that after she died she was told at one point that she could "go no further" due to lacking the wedding garment.  So here's a woman who had been a devout daily Communicant and evidently her sincere desire and intention to practice the faith did not suffice for entry into the Kingdom.  But sine she was among God's elect, He took care of the problem, in this case miraculously.  He'd do the same as needed for anyone else, perhaps bilocating someone to that person's side in his last moments, or having an angel baptized the individual (nothing to prevent that ... so what's the need for "BoD"?), or simply work in an ordinary way by (as happened in a couple cases in the United States), having some video come to light where this deacon had been baptizing invalidly for decades.

    This kind of speculation here never ends well.  We simply trust God that everything He does is the most Merciful and most Just thing He could possibly do.  And that's all we need to know, and it's nefas to inquire further.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
    « Reply #40 on: February 20, 2025, 09:00:53 AM »
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  • This is typical Newchurch muddle-headedness, to imagine that hell is equally bad for everyone.

    See, I don't think it's just NewChurch or even primarily NewChurch.  NewChurch just gets around the problem where they "hope" that ALL will be saved, either by way of the Origen heresy (as Bergoglio has articulated it), or just because God wants to save everyone, so Hell is empty.

    But Trads have this same conception of Hell, that everyone who isn't saved and doesn't have the Beatific Vision goes to some torture chamber for all eternity.


    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
    « Reply #41 on: February 20, 2025, 09:22:17 AM »
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  • I remember Vin Lewis in one of his talks said that on the last day of the world it was possible that those not validly baptized will be baptized.  He theorized that as long as time remains, there is an oppurtunity to recieve the sacraments. 

    In a separate note, I remember reading the life of Dr. Simone Weil, she was a Jewess in France, had a PhD in Philosophy, and she died in 1943.  She once said that the reason she did into enter the Catholic Church was because of the dogma Extra Eccesiam Nulla Salus.  She felt that she knew some "good hearted Jews who must be in heaven too."  This is just emotional hogwash!     

    Once again, Brownson in his 1874 article on Extra Ecclesiam says on positive/negative vincible/invincible ignorance:

    “But they who are merely negative infidels, or unbelievers purely through ignorance, in consequence of never having heard about the Gospel, are not guilty of the sin of infidelity?  Certainly not.  Every Catholic is presumed to know that the 68th proposition of Baius, Infidelitas pure negativa in his, quibus Christus non est praedicatus, peccatum est, 'Purely negative infidelity in those among whom Christ has not been preached, is a sin,' is a condemned proposition, and therefore that purely negative infidelity in those to whom Christ has not been preached is inculpable – as St. Augustine teaches, the penalty of sin, not sin itself.  But who therefore concludes that they are in the way of salvation, or that they can be saved without becoming living members of the body of our Lord?  ‘Infidels of this sort,’ says St. Thomas, ‘are damned, indeed, for other sins which without faith cannot be remitted, but they are not damned for the sin of infidelity.  Whence the Lord says, “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin”; that is, as St. Augustine explains it, would not have the sin of not believing in Christ.’  There is a considerable distance between being free from the formal sin of infidelity, and being in the way of salvation.  No infidel, positive or negative, in vincible or invincible ignorance, can be saved; ‘for without faith it is impossible to please God,’ and ‘he that believeth not shall be damned,’ and faith in voto not in re, is inconceivable.  Neither of the subdivisions of the unbelieving class of our countrymen are, then, in the way of salvation." 

    ("Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus," April 1874, Brownson's Quarterly Review)
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
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    Online Deusvult

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    Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
    « Reply #42 on: February 20, 2025, 09:23:34 AM »
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  • We can't confuse some "sincerely wanting" with having the will, intention, and desire to do something.  It also depends on his motives.  Sure, who doesn't want to be happy forever?  But is the person WILLING to do what it takes and does the person actually love God, or just want something for himself.  That's one of the worst problems with this notion of Baptism of Desire.  Latin word mis-translated as simple desire is votum, which is more like a vow, an act of the will (word derives from willing something), and even Catholic Encyclopedia states that this term refers to having all the dispositions indicated by Trent as necessary for receiving the Sacrament.

    With that said, if God allows someone to be invalidly baptized, He has His reasons, just like He has His reasons for having various people die as unbaptized infants.  If God willed this person to have the Baptism corrected, then He'll take care of it, bring its invalidity to light, or even work some extraordinary and miraculous thing.  There was such a case in the life of St. Peter Claver, where a woman had been a devout Catholic for years, a daily Communicant, etc.  She died without the Last Sacraments.  St. Peter was inspired to raise her back to life because he knew something was amiss.  So he started to hear her confession and then suddenly received the light that she had never been validly baptized.  St. Peter baptized her, and then she died.  Now, this woman reported to St. Peter that after she died she was told at one point that she could "go no further" due to lacking the wedding garment.  So here's a woman who had been a devout daily Communicant and evidently her sincere desire and intention to practice the faith did not suffice for entry into the Kingdom.  But sine she was among God's elect, He took care of the problem, in this case miraculously.  He'd do the same as needed for anyone else, perhaps bilocating someone to that person's side in his last moments, or having an angel baptized the individual (nothing to prevent that ... so what's the need for "BoD"?), or simply work in an ordinary way by (as happened in a couple cases in the United States), having some video come to light where this deacon had been baptizing invalidly for decades.

    This kind of speculation here never ends well.  We simply trust God that everything He does is the most Merciful and most Just thing He could possibly do.  And that's all we need to know, and it's nefas to inquire further.
    When I speak of someone who sincerely wants to be saved, I am speaking of someone who has faith and seeks to fulfill God's will and sanctify himself, who prays the Rosary every day, goes to Mass regularly, etc. If this person does not fall into mortal sin, will this person necessarily be saved? Is it possible that God will still refuse him salvation? Will this person learn by surprise at death that he was not baptized and then, too bad for you?

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
    « Reply #43 on: February 20, 2025, 10:01:20 AM »
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  • See, I don't think it's just NewChurch or even primarily NewChurch.  NewChurch just gets around the problem where they "hope" that ALL will be saved, either by way of the Origen heresy (as Bergoglio has articulated it), or just because God wants to save everyone, so Hell is empty.

    But Trads have this same conception of Hell, that everyone who isn't saved and doesn't have the Beatific Vision goes to some torture chamber for all eternity.

    But do they think that hell is equally bad for everyone?  I tend to doubt it.  Traditional Catholic teaching is that the punishments of hell will be commensurate with the gravity of the sins that put the soul there.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
    « Reply #44 on: February 20, 2025, 10:02:14 AM »
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  • When I speak of someone who sincerely wants to be saved, I am speaking of someone who has faith and seeks to fulfill God's will and sanctify himself, who prays the Rosary every day, goes to Mass regularly, etc. If this person does not fall into mortal sin, will this person necessarily be saved? Is it possible that God will still refuse him salvation? Will this person learn by surprise at death that he was not baptized and then, too bad for you?
    Yes, it is possible - after all, who knows the mind of God outside of what He has already revealed? But we know God wants all men to be saved so there is nothing to stop God from providing a valid sacrament to the person you speak of before he dies - were such a person to exist. 


     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse