Author Topic: Council of Ephesus Quote  (Read 389 times)

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Offline An even Seven

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Council of Ephesus Quote
« on: November 08, 2017, 11:01:38 AM »
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  • This is a quote from the Council of Ephesus (431).


    Quote
    DENZ. 139: Council of Ephesus, The Catalog or the Authoritative Statements of the Past, Bishops of the Holy See Concerning the Grace of God: "For when the leaders of the holy nations perform the office of ambassador entrusted to them, they plead the cause of the human race before divine Clemency, and while the whole Church laments with them, they ask and pray...that finally after the catechumens have been led to the sacraments of regeneration, the royal court of heavenly mercy may be opened to them."

    It shows that God's mercy is not available to Catechumens before their regeneration. These individuals have an EXPLICIT belief in the Catholic Faith and yet they are still not able to obtain mercy from God without Baptism. This is why the Church's ancient custom was of denying Catechumens ecclesiastical burial and the offering of Masses if they died unbaptized.
    Matthew 15:9 And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Council of Ephesus Quote
    « Reply #1 on: November 08, 2017, 11:20:34 AM »
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  • I have never known any catechumens or anyone who knew of a catechumen who died before he was baptized. Anyone that is honest with themselves has to admit that it must be a very rare occurrence. So why do these false BODers, false because they bring up BOD of the catechumen, when they do not even believe desire to be a Catholic or belief in Christ is necessary for salvation, why do they keep harping on it?

    The reason is very clear once they show their true face, their belief that people can be saved without baptism, without baptism of desire of the catechumen, without belief in Christ and the Holy Trinity, without the sacrament, without any desire whatsoever to be a Catholic. They just use BOD of the catechumen as a stepping stone to their real belief, they just use St. Alphonsus Ligouri, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Robert Bellarmine.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Council of Ephesus Quote
    « Reply #2 on: November 08, 2017, 11:30:18 AM »
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  • This is a quote from the Council of Ephesus (431).


    It shows that God's mercy is not available to Catechumens before their regeneration. These individuals have an EXPLICIT belief in the Catholic Faith and yet they are still not able to obtain mercy from God without Baptism. This is why the Church's ancient custom was of denying Catechumens ecclesiastical burial and the offering of Masses if they died unbaptized.
    Yes, the above is stated by the Council of Ephesus in the year 431. However, you left out much of what the Council was getting at; which is, the effects of prayer. The quote you offer above is true, but the Council's intent was not to address Baptism specifically, but rather it was addressing the efficaciousness of prayer. 

    Offline An even Seven

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    Re: Council of Ephesus Quote
    « Reply #3 on: November 08, 2017, 11:55:48 AM »
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  • Yes, the above is stated by the Council of Ephesus in the year 431. However, you left out much of what the Council was getting at; which is, the effects of prayer. The quote you offer above is true, but the Council's intent was not to address Baptism specifically, but rather it was addressing the efficaciousness of prayer.
    AND??
    What effect is the Church trying to produce through that prayer? You guessed it, that catechumens may be regenerated and the Mercy of God may be open to them through Baptism.
    I never said that was their primary intent. I am just showing another proof that the Church teaches that Baptism's necessary. 
    It's amazing that you call yourself Catholic but have such an aversion to the preaching of its Sacraments. 
    Matthew 15:9 And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Council of Ephesus Quote
    « Reply #4 on: November 08, 2017, 12:22:36 PM »
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  • AND??
    What effect is the Church trying to produce through that prayer? You guessed it, that catechumens may be regenerated and the Mercy of God may be open to them through Baptism.
    I never said that was their primary intent. I am just showing another proof that the Church teaches that Baptism's necessary.
    It's amazing that you call yourself Catholic but have such an aversion to the preaching of its Sacraments.

    I think that all traditionalists should have a copy of 'The Sources of Catholic Dogma,' by Denzinger, so that they will be able to look up and know when a traditionalist (especially a sedevacantist such as yourself) is taking quotes out of context.

    I guess you were counting on no one having a copy of The Sources of Catholic Dogma. 


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Council of Ephesus Quote
    « Reply #5 on: November 08, 2017, 12:44:42 PM »
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    I think that all traditionalists should have a copy of 'The Sources of Catholic Dogma,' by Denzinger
    Only if it is an older edition before Karl Rahner got ahold of it.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline An even Seven

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    Re: Council of Ephesus Quote
    « Reply #6 on: November 08, 2017, 12:45:22 PM »
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  • I think that all traditionalists should have a copy of 'The Sources of Catholic Dogma,' by Denzinger, so that they will be able to look up and know when a traditionalist (especially a sedevacantist such as yourself) is taking quotes out of context.

    I guess you were counting on no one having a copy of The Sources of Catholic Dogma.
    WOW!!!. Here's the whole quote. I can post all of Denzinger if you want but it won't change my point. I posted what was relevant. The rest of the quote is other things the Church prays for, which ALL pertain to the GRACE OF GOD. You are missing the point because of your hatred of the Catholic Faith. In fact the rest of the quote proves that how you pray must be how you believe and vice versa. It also proves there is no Salvation outside the Church and that even Catechumens are not part of the Church without Baptism even though they are closest to it. BTW all "Traditionalists" can have a copy of Denzinger as long as they have the internet. It can be found here http://patristica.net/denzinger/.
    Quote
    DENZ: 139 Chapter 8. * But besides these hallowed ordinances of the most blessed and Apostolic See, in accordance with which the most pious Fathers, after casting aside the pride of pernicious novelty, have taught us to refer to Christ's grace both the beginnings of good will, and the advances in commendable devotions and the perseverance in these unto the end, let us be mindful also of the sacraments of priestly public prayer, which handed down by the Apostles are uniformly celebrated in the whole world and in every Catholic Church, in order that the law of supplication may support the law of believing.



      For when the leaders of the holy nations perform the office of ambassador entrusted to them, they plead the cause of the human race before divine Clemency, and while the whole Church laments with them, they ask and pray that the faith may be granted to infidels; that idolaters may be delivered from the errors of their impiety; that the veil of their hearts may be removed and the light of truth be visible to the Jews; that heretics may come to their senses through a comprehension of the Catholic faith; that schismatics may receive the spirit of renewed charity; that the remedy of repentance may be bestowed upon the lapsed; that finally after the catechumens have been led to the sacraments of regeneration, the royal court of heavenly mercy may be opened to them. Moreover, the effect of these prayers shows that these are not sought from the Lord perfunctorily and uselessly, since indeed God deigns to attract from every kind of error very many whom,torn from the power of darkness, He transfers into the kingdom of the Son of his love [ Col. 1:13], andfrom vessels of wrath He makes vessels of mercy [Rom. 9:22 f.]. This is felt to be so completely a divine work that the action of the graces and the acknowledgement of praise on account of the illumination or correction of such [persons] should always be referred to God who effects these things.
    Matthew 15:9 And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men.

    Online Bellator Dei

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    Re: Council of Ephesus Quote
    « Reply #7 on: November 08, 2017, 12:55:43 PM »
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  • Please pray for all of the holy souls in purgatory.


    Offline An even Seven

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    Re: Council of Ephesus Quote
    « Reply #8 on: November 08, 2017, 12:58:23 PM »
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  • Thanks for the link, man!
    'sNo problem, I would have posted it earlier if I knew more people didn't know about it. It a real handy reference.
    Matthew 15:9 And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Council of Ephesus Quote
    « Reply #9 on: November 08, 2017, 01:02:04 PM »
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  • WOW!!!. Here's the whole quote. I can post all of Denzinger if you want but it won't change my point. I posted what was relevant. The rest of the quote is other things the Church prays for, which ALL pertain to the GRACE OF GOD. You are missing the point because of your hatred of the Catholic Faith. In fact the rest of the quote proves that how you pray must be how you believe and vice versa. It also proves there is no Salvation outside the Church and that even Catechumens are not part of the Church without Baptism even though they are closest to it. BTW all "Traditionalists" can have a copy of Denzinger as long as they have the internet. It can be found here http://patristica.net/denzinger/.

    Thank you. It is obvious that the Council was not making a definitive statement on Baptism at all. But then you know that.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Council of Ephesus Quote
    « Reply #10 on: November 08, 2017, 01:06:28 PM »
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  • You are missing the point because of your hatred of the Catholic Faith.
    Sedes such as yourself should be banned from this forum. Sedevacantism is an illness.


    Offline An even Seven

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    Re: Council of Ephesus Quote
    « Reply #11 on: November 08, 2017, 01:55:24 PM »
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  • Sedes such as yourself should be banned from this forum. Sedevacantism is an illness.
    Thank you for further proof that women should not be speaking about religious matters.
    Matthew 15:9 And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men.

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: Council of Ephesus Quote
    « Reply #12 on: November 08, 2017, 04:21:13 PM »
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  • Thank you for further proof that women should not be speaking about religious matters.
    Because Sedevacantism is an illness...

    Sedevacantism..., not holding that the world is flat, thinking that there is a conspiracy requiring the silence of humanly innumerable persons, but Sedevacantism...


    C'mon man, give her a little ffffflatitude....

    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: Council of Ephesus Quote
    « Reply #13 on: November 08, 2017, 04:28:12 PM »
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  • I think that all traditionalists should have a copy of 'The Sources of Catholic Dogma,' by Denzinger, so that they will be able to look up and know when a traditionalist (especially a sedevacantist such as yourself) is taking quotes out of context.

    I guess you were counting on no one having a copy of The Sources of Catholic Dogma.
    I have it, two versions for that matter.

    You're stupid, or lying and taking "context" out of "context", since we're just making stuff up because reasons.
    "Lord, have mercy".

     

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