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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => The Feeneyism Ghetto => Topic started by: Neil Obstat on August 11, 2018, 01:23:17 AM

Title: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: Neil Obstat on August 11, 2018, 01:23:17 AM
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SeanJohnson was only interested in this topic when posts registered on the Recent Topics index.
The reason he will not come to this ghetto subforum to continue his diatribe is manifest.
He is only interested in promoting himself, his ideas, his whims, his preferences, his opinions.
And he likes to see his name on the list of recent posts, because that makes him feel important.
He must have a very fragile ego.
So don't expect to see SJ showing up here for any discussion.
Of course he might show up just to vent his malicious contumely against this post in general, or me in particular.
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Re: “Eleison Comments” by Mgr. Williamson – Issue DLXXVII (577) (https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/eleison-comments-by-mgr-williamson-issue-dlxxvii-(577)/msg621978/#msg621978)
« Reply #99 on: Yesterday at 11:01:55 PM »



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I had a disturbing discussion about this topic with an acquaintance just a few days ago, when he told me that implicit BoD is found in Scripture when St. Paul told the pagan Greeks they had been recognizing the One True God when they worshiped at the shrine to "The Unknown God." He said that St. Paul told them they received actual grace by recognizing this "unknown god." I replied saying that a man in the state of mortal sin receives actual grace by standing in line for Confession, which he denied, saying, "No he doesn't."
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I replied that Scripture does not say, nor are we to presume, that St. Paul believed or taught that Holy Baptism of water was therefore not necessary for those Greeks to attain salvation. He disagreed. He claimed that those Greeks who worshiped at that pagan shrine therefore received the saving grace of BoD because of their (false but ignorant) worship, because they were living virtuously (which BTW St. Paul does not mention). After a back-and-forth it came down to his claim that actual grace is sufficient for salvation, that there is no distinction between sanctifying grace and actual grace, that the reception of actual grace requires one to already be living a virtuous life even if ignorant of the Church or her doctrine, and that no one in the state of mortal sin is able to receive actual grace.
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So he did a good job of explaining the root cause of all his misunderstanding, but like Sean Johnson, the pompous twit who refuses to take any manner of correction even when he's obviously in the wrong, my acquaintance went away mad. Again. (He's done that in the past.)
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So beware, Pax Vobis and JPaul:  SJ (the full-of-himself pompous twit), when he's had quite enough of this questioning and fraternal correction stuff, just might pick up his Tonka toys and go home. Nothing new. Par for the course. Check his posting history. 

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Certainly after the topic is moved to "the ghetto" he's not coming here to continue.
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 Matthew (https://www.cathinfo.com/profile/Matthew/)

(https://www.cathinfo.com/Themes/DeepBlue/images/post/xx.gif)
Re: “Eleison Comments” by Mgr. Williamson – Issue DLXXVII (577) (https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/eleison-comments-by-mgr-williamson-issue-dlxxvii-(577)/msg622046/#msg622046)
« Reply #130 on: Today at 02:00:15 PM »

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Please take it to the BoD ghetto, set up for the purpose of all discussion of Feeneyism, BoB, BoD, implicit Faith, and all that.

https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/ (https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/)

I refuse to move an "Eleison Comments" to the Feeneyism subforum -- that would be ridiculous. So I'm just locking the thread instead. Go start however many threads you want in the APPROPRIATE location and by all means continue.
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Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: Amakusa on August 11, 2018, 01:47:53 AM
Since Feeneyites and BOD deniers are excommunicated, they will have to found a new sect.
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: cathman7 on August 11, 2018, 05:22:31 AM
Read Msgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton's The Catholic Church and Salvation that's what I am doing now. 

It seems odd that people would attack Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre for his adherence to baptism of desire as if that meant he believed in universal salvation. The majority of his life as a missionary priest rejected such a notion. 

The enemy is most certainly NOT Archbishop Lefebvre. 
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: X on August 11, 2018, 06:05:23 AM
Neil does not cast a very splendid figure when he vents his spleen for having been taught the truth.

It was established in the other thread that implicit baptism of desire is de fide (Ott; Alphonsus; Trent), and the best the Feeneyites could come up with was "Trent only allowed explicit baptism of desire," or,  "Alphonsus never defined what 'implicit' is."

Both bogus, and the latter error reminded me of former US President Bill Clinton saying "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."

The whole problem is that Feeneyites can't understand how implicit desire differs from universal salvationism, even though Sean Johnson explained it perfectly to them.  Perhaps they have too much time and reputation invested in the Feeneyite enterprise to be docile to receiving correction?

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єω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α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)
(https://moodyeyeview.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/clinton.png)on
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: Struthio on August 11, 2018, 06:31:29 AM
A.D. 2015 katholisch.de had an article about the then 91 years old Don Luigi Bettazzi. The author had met Bettazzi recently. katholisch.de is the "internet portal of the Catholic Church in Germany" operated by the German Episcopal Conference in Bonn. Don Luigi Bettazzi is one of the 15 participants of the 1960ies' Council still alive in 2015. He tells "the favourite joke of the Councils' Fathers":


Quote from: Katholisch.de
Der Lieblingswitz der Konzilsväter
"Kommt ein Rabbi an die Himmelspforte. Petrus bittet ihn herein. Sagt der Rabbi: Aber ich bin doch ein Jude. Sagt Petrus: Das macht nichts. Drinnen führt ihn Petrus herum. Der Rabbi wundert sich: Hier sind ja noch viele andere Juden. Ja, sagt Petrus, auch orthodoxe und evangelische Christen. Dort drüben sind sogar Buddhisten und hier Animisten. Da kommen beide zu einer Mauer. Wir müssen jetzt still sein, sagt Petrus. Warum?, fragt der Rabbi. Darauf Petrus: Hinter dieser Mauer sind die Katholiken. Die glauben immer noch, sie sind alleine hier."
katholisch.de (http://"http://www.katholisch.de/aktuelles/aktuelle-artikel/armer-kleiner-bischof")

Quote from: Clumsy translation
The Favourite Joke of the Councils' Fathers
A Rabbi arrives at heavens door. Peter asks him to enter. Says the Rabbi: "But I'm a Jєω." Peter: "No problem." Peter shows him around. The Rabbi wonders: "Here are many Jєωs." "Yes, " Peter says, "Orthodox and evangelical Christians, too. There are even Buddhists over there and Animists here." Peter and the Rabbi arrive at a masonry wall. "We have to be quiet now." Peter says. "Why?" askes the Rabbi. Peter answers: "Behind this wall there are the Catholics. They still believe, their alone here."


The moral of the story: Don Luigi Bettazzi passes down first hand, what Council Fathers knew and laughed about: Before the Council, Catholics believed that heaven was for Catholics only. The Council was to make believe New-Catholics differently after the Council.
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: X on August 11, 2018, 06:54:51 AM
A.D. 2015 katholisch.de had an article about the then 91 years old Don Luigi Bettazzi. The author had met Bettazzi recently. katholisch.de is the "internet portal of the Catholic Church in Germany" operated by the German Episcopal Conference in Bonn. Don Luigi Bettazzi is one of the 15 participants of the 1960ies' Council still alive in 2015. He tells "the favourite joke of the Councils' Fathers":

katholisch.de (http://"http://www.katholisch.de/aktuelles/aktuelle-artikel/armer-kleiner-bischof")


The moral of the story: Don Luigi Bettazzi passes down first hand, what Council Fathers knew and laughed about: Before the Council, Catholics believed that heaven was for Catholics only. The Council was to make believe New-Catholics differently after the Council.

Evidence of what I contended in my previous post:

"The whole problem is that Feeneyites can't understand how implicit desire differs from universal salvationism, even though Sean Johnson explained it perfectly to them."
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: X on August 11, 2018, 07:02:55 AM
FR. A. TANQUERY, Dogmatic Brevior; ART. IV, Section I, II - 1945 (1024-1)

"The Baptism of Desire. Contrition, or perfect charity, with at least an implicit desire for Baptism, supplies in adults the place of the baptism of water as respects the forgiveness of sins.

This is certain.

Explanation: a) An implicit desire for Baptism, that is, one that is included in a general purpose of keeping all the commandments of God is, as all agree, sufficient in one who is invincibly ignorant of the law of Baptism; likewise, according to the more common opinion, in one who knows the necessity of Baptism."
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: X on August 11, 2018, 07:06:05 AM
FR. DOMINIC PRUMMER, O.P., Moral Theology, 1949:

“Baptism of Desire which is a perfect act of charity that includes at least implicitly the desire for Baptism by water”
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: X on August 11, 2018, 07:07:32 AM
FR. FRANCIS O’CONNELL, Outlines of Moral Theology, 1953:

“Baptism of Desire... is an act of divine charity or perfect contrition...”

“These means (i.e. Baptism of Blood and Desire) presuppose in the recipient at least the implicit will to receive the sacrament.”
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: X on August 11, 2018, 07:10:15 AM
FR. ALOYSIA SABETTI, S.J., FR. TIMOTHEO BARRETT, S.J., Compendium Theologiae Moralis, Tractatus XII [De Baptismo, Chapter I, 1926:

"Baptism, the gate and foundation of the Sacraments, in fact or at least in desire, is necessary for all unto salvation...

From the Baptism of water, which is called of river (Baptismus fluminis), is from Baptism of the Spirit (Baptismus flaminis) and Baptism of Blood, by which Baptism properly speaking can be supplied, if this be impossible. The first one is a full conversion to God through perfect contrition or charity, in so far as it contains an either explicit or at least implicit will to receive Baptism of water... Baptism of Spirit (flaminis) and Baptism of Blood are called Baptism of desire (in voto)."
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: X on August 11, 2018, 07:15:51 AM
In other words, not only does St. Thomas Aquinas teach implicit baptism of desire;

Not only does Trent make it de fide;

Not only does St. Alphonsus comment that Trent made it de fide;

Not only does Ott mention it as de fide;

Not only does Pope St. Pius X (and other pre-conciliar catechisms) teach it to the universal Church;

But implicit baptism of desire is the common pre-conciliar teaching of approved theologians.

Yet, somehow Lefebvre was a universal salvationist?

No.

Feeneyites have departed from the Church in this matter.
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: Struthio on August 11, 2018, 07:30:02 AM
@X

You use quotes of fallible men to reject the clear teaching of the sacred and holy, oecuмenical and general Synod of Trent, lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost. The highest authority on earth, the infallible Magisterium of the Church including the Vicar of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

You attack Catholic Dogma using quotes of irrelevant thelogians.

Catholics do not believe in the science of theology, but in Catholic Dogma decreed and defined by authorized Apostles and their authorized successors, authorized by Our Lord Jesus Christ.

I recommend to forget everything you learnt about multiple kinds of baptism and study one single text of a few screen pages:

Council of Trent, Sixths Session, Decree on Justification, "cuм hoc tempore" (http://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/trent/sixth-session.htm)

You should not only not attack Catholic Dogma, but also listen to the said Council which is "most strictly forbidding that any henceforth presume to believe, preach, or teach, otherwise than as by this present decree is defined and declared."

Stop to believe and spread false teachings and errors.

Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: X on August 11, 2018, 07:37:37 AM
Here's a list of 42 catechisms that teach baptism of desire (taken from this website: http://traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Information/Baptism_of_Desire.html):

Catechisms that teach Baptism of Desire
1. A Catechism for Inquirers by Rev. Joseph I. Malloy, C.S.P.
Reference page 28.
New York: Paulist Press, 1927.
Permissu Superiorum: Joseph McSorely, C.S.P., Superior General.
Nihil Obstat: Arthur J. Scalan, S.T.D., Censor Librorum.
Imprimatur: Patrick Cardinal Hayes, Archbishop of New York.

2. A Catholic Catechism for the Parochial Schools and Sunday Schools of the United States. By Rev. James Groenings, S.J., translated by the Very Rev. James Rockliff, S.J.
Reference page 101.
New York, Cincinnati, Chicago: Benziger Brothers, 1900.
With the Approbation of the Most Rev. Archbishop of New York and of Religious Superiors.
Nihil Obstat: Theodore Van Rossum, S.J., Censor Deputatus.
Imprimatur: Michael Augustine, Archbishop of New York.

3. A Complete Catechism of the Catholic Religion. Translated from the German of Rev. Joseph Deharbe, S.J., by the Rev. John Fander. Preceded by A Short History of Revealed Religion, from the Creation to the Present Time. 6th American Edition. Edited by the Rev. James J. Fox, D.D. and the Rev. Thomas McMillan, C.S.P.
Reference page 257.
New York: Schwartz, Kirwin & Fauss, 1912.
Nihil Obstat: Very Rev. Edmund T. Shanahan, D.D., Censor Deputatus.
Imprimatur: John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York.

4. A Catechism Moral and Controversial, Proper for such as are already advanced to some Knowledge of Christian Doctrine by Thomas Miles Burke, O.P.
Reference page 87.
Permissu Superiorum.
Lisbon, 1752.

5. A Catechism of Catholic Doctrine.
Reference page 80.
Dublin, 1951.
Approved by the Archbishops and Bishops of Ireland.
Imprimatur: Joannes Carolus, Archiepiscopus Dublinensis, Hiberniae Primas.

6. A Catechism of Christian Doctrine Prescribed for Use in the Diocese of Victoria, 2nd Ed.
Reference page 36.
Imprimatur: Alexander MacDonald, Bishop of Victoria.
From the Preface:
The writer is indebted to the Archbishop of Toronto for much, if not all, of what is best in this book. It has been already done into Spanish, and is used in South America.
Toronto: Madigan & Moylan, 1920.

7. A Dogmatic Catechism. From the Italian of Frassinetti. Revised and Edited by the Oblate Fathers of St. Charles.
Reference page 188.
London: R. Washbourne, 1872.
Recommended by Henry Edward, Archbishop of Westminster.

8. An Advanced Catechism of Catholic Faith and Practice, Based Upon the Third Plenary Council Catechism, for Use in the Higher Grades of Catholic Schools. Complied by Rev. Thomas J. O’Brien, Inspector of Parochial Schools in the Diocese of Brooklyn.
Reference page 82.
Akron: D. H. McBride & Company, 1901.
Nihil Obstat: Rev. M. G. Flannery, Censor Librorum
Imprimatur: Ign. F. Horstmann, Bishop of Cleveland.

9. An Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism of Christian Doctrine: For the Use of Sunday-School Teachers and Advanced Classes. By the Rev. Thomas L. Kinkead.
Reference page 164.
New York, Cincinnati, Chicago: Benziger Brothers, 1891.
Received approbations from:
His Eminence Cardinal Gibbons.
Most Rev. M. A. Corrigan, D.D., Archbishop of New York.
Most Rev. William Henry Elder, D.D., Archbishop of Cincinnati.
Most Rev. Thomas L. Grace, D.D., Archbishop of Siunia.
Most Rev. P.J. Ryan, D.D., Archbishop of Philadelphia.
Most Rev. William J. Walsh, D.D., Archbishop OP Dublin, Primate of Ireland.
Right Rev. D. M. Bradley. D.D., Bishop of Manchester.
Right Rev. Thomas F. Brennan, D.D., Bishop of Dallas.
Right Rev. M. F. Burke, D.D., Bishop of Cheyenne.
Right Rev. L. De Goesbriand, D.D., Bishop of Burlington.
Right Rev. John Foley, D.D., Bishop of Detroit.
Right Rev. H. Gabriels, D.D., Bishop-elect of Ogdensburg.
Right Rev. N. A. Gallagher, D.D., Bishop of Galveston.
Right Rev. Leo Haid, O.S.B., D.D., Vicar Apostolic of North Carolina.
Right Rev. John J. Hennessy, D.D., Bishop of Wichita.
Right Rev. Junger, D.D., Bishop of Nesqually.
Right Rev. John J. Keane, D.D., Rector of the Catholic University, Washington.
Right Rev. W. G. McCloskey, D.D., Bishop of Louisville.
Right Rev. James Mcgolrick, D.D., Bishop of Duluth.
Right Rev. Camillus P. Maes, D.D., Bishop of Covington.
Right Rev. C. E. McDonnell, D.D., Bishop-elect of Brooklyn.
Right Rev. P. Manogue, D.D., Bishop of Sacramento.
Right Rev. Tobias Mullen, D.D., Bishop of Eric.
Right Rev. H. P. Northrop, D.D., Bishop of Charleston.
Right Rev. Henry Joseph Richter. D.D., Bishop of Grand Rapids.
Right Rev. S. V. Ryan, D.D., Bishop of Buffalo.
Right Rev. L. Scanlan, D.D., Bishop of Salt Lake.

10. Anecdotes and Examples Illustrating the Catholic Catechism. Selected and Arranged by Rev. Francis Spirago, Professor of Theology. Supplemented, Adapted to the Baltimore Catechism, and Edited by Rev. James J. Baxter, D.D.
Reference page 166.
New York, Cincinnati, Chicago: Benziger Brothers, 1904.
Nihil Obstat: Remigius Lafort, S.T.L., Censor Librorum.
Imprimatur: John M. Farley, D.D., Archbishop of New York.

11. Biblical Treasury of the Catechism, 3rd Ed. Complied and Arranged by Rev. Thomas E. Cox.
Reference page 182.
New York: William H. Young & Company, 1900.
Nihil Obstat: T. L. Spalding.
Imprimatur: Patrick A. Feehan, D.D., Archbishop of Chicago.

12. Catechism Made Easy, Being a Familiar Explanation of the Catechism of Christian Doctrine, Vol III. by Rev. Henry Gibson, Late Catholic Chaplain to the Kirkdale Gaoland Kirkdale Industrial Schools.
Reference pages 15 and 38.
London: R Washbourne, 1877.
Nihil Obstat: Carolus Canonicus Teebay.
Imprimatur: Bernardus, Episcupus Liverpolitanus.

13. Catechism: Doctrinal, Moral, Historical, and Liturgical with Answers to the Objections Drawn from the Sciences Against Religion, Vol. III., 8th Ed. by the Rev. Patrick Power.
Reference page 177.
London: Burns and Oates, 1905.
With Episcopal Approbation.

14. Catechism of the Diocese of Paris. Translated from the French by M. J. Piercy.
Reference page 221.
London: Richardson and Son, 1850.
Approbations:
Haying carefully perused the following Translation of an excellent and copious Catechism, published by order of the late saintly Archbishop of Paris, we hesitate not to recommend the same to the English reader, as an elaborate and complete exposition of Catholic doctrine and practice; suitable, from its peculiar plan, as well for the elementary instruction of young persons, as for the edification and benefit of those of riper age.

William, Bishop of Ariopolis, Vicar Apostolic of the Eastern District.
George, Bishop of Tloa, Vicar Apostolic of the Lancashire District.
Bishop Eton.
William, Bishop of Samosata.
Robert Hogarth, G.V.—Y. D.

15. Catechism of the ''Summa Theologica" of Saint Thomas Aquinas for the Use of the Faithful. By R. P. Thomas Pègues, O.P., Master in Theology. Adapted from the French and done into English by Aelred Whitacre, O.P.
Reference page 249.
London: Burns Oates and Washbourne Limited, 1922.
Received the approbation of Pope Benedict XV.

16. The Catechumen: An Aid to the Intelligent Knowledge of the Catechism. By J. G. Wenham, Canon of Southwark, and Diocesan Inspector of Schools.
Reference page 293.
London: Burns and Oates, 1888.
Nihil Obstat: Thomas Can. Lalor, Censor Deputatus.

17. The Catechism Explained: An Exhaustive Exposition of the Christian Religion, With Special Reference to the Present State of Society and the Spirit of the Age. A Practical Manual for the Use of the Preacher, the Catechist, the Teacher, and the Family. Eighth Edition. From the Original of Rev. Francis Spirago, Professor of Theology. Edited by Rev. Richard F. Clarke, S.J.
Reference page 580.
New York, Cincinnati, Chicago: Benziger Brothers, 1899.

18. The Catechism, or, Christian Doctrine, by Way of Question and Answer, Drawn Chiefly from the Express Word of God, and Other Pure Sources. 3rd Ed. by the Rev. Andrew Donlevy, LL.D.
Reference page 229.
Dublin: James Duffy, 1848.
Approbations:
I do hereby testify to have attentively read and examined the Irish and English Catechism, compiled by M. Andrew Donlevy, Director of the Irish Community at Paris, which, in all points, is very conformable to both Scripture and Tradition, and very useful to all those who are charged with the instruction of the Faithful in the kingdom of Ireland, as clearly containing the Articles of Faith and Purity of Christian Morality. At Paris, the eighteenth of April, 1741.
Michael O’Gara, Archbishop of Tuam.
Similar Approbations were given at the same time by—
James Gallagher, Bishop of Kildare.
Patrick Macdonogh, Bishop of Killaloe.
F. B. Kelly, O.S.F., Doctor of Sorbonne.
Patrick Corr, Doctor of Sorbonne and Provisor of the Irish College.
Mathew Mackenna, Doctor of Sorbonne and Provisor of the Irish College.
Richard Hennessy, Licentiate of Sorbonne.
F. J. Duany, O.E.S.A., Doctor of Sorbonne.
Francis Devereux, Principal of the Irish College.

19. The Catechism of Rodez Explained in Form of Sermons: A Work Equally Useful to the Clergy, Religious Communities, and Faithful. By the Abbe Luche.
Reference page 395.
St. Louis: B. Herder, 1898.
Recommended by Rt. Rev. Ign. F. Horstmann, D.D., Bishop of Cleveland.
Received the approbation of Louis-August, Bishop of Rodez.

20. The Catechism in Examples by the Rev. D. Chisholm, Vol. IV. 3rd Ed.
Reference page 59.
London: Burns Oates & Washbourne LTD., 1918.
Nihil Obstat: Franciscus M. Wyndham, Censor Deputatus.
Imprimatur: Gulielmus, Episcopus Arindelensis, Vicarius Generalis.
From the preface to the Second Edition:

The unprecedented success which attended the publication of the First Edition of " The Catechism in Examples," and the demand which is now being constantly made for the book, has induced the author to undertake the publication of an entirely new edition, in which, while adhering to the original plan, he has not only thoroughly revised, but also considerably developed, the contents of the work.
The book in its first form found its way literally into every part of the world, and demands for a reissue have recently reached the author from almost every country in the Continent of Europe, as well as from America, Australia, Africa, North and South; Ireland especially has been most zealous in its propagation in the past, and in present demands for its reappearance.
His late Holiness, Leo XIII., not only gave the book his special approbation and blessing, when brought to his notice by two Archbishops, but asked the author to furnish a copy of it for the Papal Library (see Tablet, February 25, 1888, p. 300). Many members of the Hierarchy have also given it their approbation and commendation, and the teaching Orders of the Church, as well as the clergy in charge of schools, have distributed it in profusion among the prizes they gave to the children under their care; and in many a Catholic home it is the favourite book for pious reading in the family.

21. The Catechism of the Ecclesiastical Provinces of Quebec, Montreal, Ottawa.
Reference page 30.
Quebec: Printing Establishment of A. Cote & Co., 1888.
Approved by the Archbishops and Bishops of those Provinces and Published at Their Order.
Imprimatur: E. A. Card. Taschereau, Archpus Quebecen.

22. The Catechism of Saint Pius X.
Reference page 52.
Approved of by Pope St. Pius X.

23. Teacher’s Handbook to the Catechism: A Practical Explanation of Catholic Doctrine for School and Pulpit. With Special Regard and Minute Directions for the Catechizing of Children, Vol. III. by the Rev. A. Urban.
Reference page 35.
New York: Joseph H. Wagner, 1904.
Nihil Obstat: Remigius Lafort, S.T.L., Censor Librorum
Imprimatur: Joannes M. Farley, D.D., Archiepiscopus.

24. The Douay Catechism of 1649: An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine. With Proofs of Scripture on Points Controverted by Way of Question and Answer. By Henry Tuberville, D.D.
Reference page 80.
New York: John P. Kennedy, 1833.
Approved and Recommended for His Diocese, by the Right Rev. Benedict, Bishop of Boston.

25. The Poor Man's Catechism; or, the Christian Doctrine Explained with Short Admonitions. By John Mannock, O.S.B.
Reference page 156.
Dublin: Richard Coyne, 1825.

26. The Real Principles of Catholics; Or, a Catechism by Way of General Instruction Explaining the Principle Points of the Doctrine & Ceremonies of the Catholic Church, 4th Ed. by the Right Rev. Dr. Hornihold, titular Bishop of Phiomelia and Vicar Apostolic of the Midland District, England.
Reference page 211.
Dublin: Richard Coyne, 1821.
Approbations:
The following Approbations will it is trusted appear decisive as to the Merits of this Work.
We approve highly of Doctor Hornihold’s book, “The Real Principles of Catholics, &c.” and we recommend it highly for perusal to Roman Catholics of this Archdiocese.
Thomas Troy, D.D. &c.
Daniel Murray, D.D.
M. H. Hamill, D.D.

27. A Full Course of Instructions for the Use of Catechists; Being An Explanation of the Catechism Entitled "An Abridgment Of Christian Doctrine." By the Rev. John Perry.
Reference page 271.
New York: D. & J. Sadlier & Co., 1860.
Approbations:
Approbation of the Most Rev. John Hughes, D.D., Archbishop of New York:
The publication of “Perry's Instructions on the Catechism,” by Messrs. Sadlier & Co., has my entire approval.
Recommendation of the Right Rev. Bishop Bayley, Bishop of Newark:
I am glad to hear that you intend to republish "Perry's Instructions on the Catechism." It is an excellent little book. As a manual for catechists, or as a book of instruction, developing and explaining the Catechism, it is the best work of the sort I am acquainted with.
Approbation of the English Edition by the Right Rev, Dr. Wareing Bishop of Ariopolis, Vicar Apostolic of the Eastern District:
Having attentively perused the work of the Rev. John Perry…I have great pleasure in recommending the same, as an orthodox and useful exposition of Catholic doctrine, and well calculated to assist as well those who seek for instruction as those who are employed in giving catechetical discourses.

28. Dogmatic and Scriptural Foundation for Catechists: Notes on Baltimore Catechism No. 3 by Rev. Francis J. Connell, C.SS.R., S.T.D., LL.D, L.H.D.
Reference page 48.
New Jersey: Confraternity Publications, 1955.
Imprimi Potest: Very Rev. James Connolly, C.SS.R., Provincial of the Baltimore Province of  the Congregation of the Most Holy Redeemer.
Nihil Obstat: Bede Babo, O.S.B., Censor librorum.
Imprimatur:  James A. Mcnulty, Bishop of Paterson.

29. The Baltimore Catechism No. 3 Prepared and Enjoined by Order of the Third Plenary Council of Baltimore (In Accordance with the New Canon Law).
Reference page 53.
New York, Boston, Cincinnati, Chicago, San Francisco: Benziger Brothers, 1885.
Approbation from James Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, Apostolic Delegate:
The Catechism ordered by the Third Plenary Council of Baltimore, having been diligently compiled and examined, is hereby approved.
Imprimatur: John Cardinal McCloskey, Archbishop of New York.
Nihil Obstat: Rev. Remigius Lafort, S.T.L., Censor Librorum.
Imprimatur: Michael Augustine, Archbishop of New York.
Nihil Obstat: Arthur J. Scanlan, S.T.D., Censor Librorum.
Imprimatur: Patrick J. Hayes, D.D., Archbishop of New York.

30. The Catechism of the Council of Trent.
Reference page 159.
Ordered by the Council of Trent
Edited by St. Charles Borromeo and approved of by St. Pope Pius V.
Approbations for the Catechism of the Council of Trent taken from the book, A Parochial Course of Doctrinal Instructions for All Sundays and Holydays of the Year Based on the Teachings of the Catechism of the Council of Trent and Harmonized with the Gospels and Epistles of the Sundays and Feasts, Vol I. Prepared and Arranged by the Rev. Charles J. Callan, O.P., and the Rev. John A. McHugh, O.P. Professors in the Theological Faculty of Maryknoll Seminary, Ossining N. Y. With an Introduction by the Most Rev. Patrick Hayes, D.D., Archbishop of New York:

In April, 1545, only a few months after the opening of the Council of Trent, it was decided by the Bishops and theologians of that illustrious assembly that an official book should be prepared for the guidance of pastors and all those charged with preaching and with the instruction of the faithful. It was plain that an explanation of the truths of revelation was always necessary; but at that time, more than ever in preceding ages, it seemed imperative that the faithful should be thoroughly instructed in all the doctrines of faith, because the so-called Reformers had their false teachers and false prophets everywhere abroad, spreading their pernicious errors and endeavoring by all means in their power to turn souls from the way of truth. The need of a complete, popular, and authoritative manual was further heightened by the lack in many of the pre-Reformation clergy of a systematic knowledge and method of explaining the truths of faith, and a consequent neglect of instruction and lack of religious knowledge on the part of the faithful.

For some years the Council was occupied with other matters which demanded more immediate attention; but in February, 1562, after having defined and re-approved all the leading doctrines and teachings of the Church, the Fathers of the Council resolved that an official Catechism should be written which would treat, in a manner suited for parochial use, all those truths of Christian doctrine with which the faithful ought to be familiar, and upon which they are supposed to be instructed in particular on all Sundays and Feasts of obligation. Furthermore, it was the wish of the Fathers and authors of this great work, and of the Sovereign Pontiffs and Councils that subsequently approved it, that its contents should be so treated as to harmonize with the Gospels and Epistles of the Sundays and Feasts throughout the year. Thus the faithful, while being kept ever in touch with the person and life-giving words of Christ, would at the same time be constantly and thoroughly instructed in all the principal doctrines of that revelation which the Saviour has given to the world for man's salvation.

After several years of careful labor and numerous revisions, on the part of many Bishops and eminent theologians, the Catechism was brought to completion and issued for the use of parish priests by command of Pope Pius V, toward the end of the year 1566. Translations into the vernacular of every nation were ordered by the Council. No such complete and practical summary of Christian doctrine had appeared since the days of the Apostles. Bishops at once recommended it everywhere and urged their priests so constantly to use and study it for their preaching that its whole contents would at length be committed to memory. It was repeatedly recommended by Pope St. Pius V., and in five Councils held at Milan under St. Charles Borromeo it received the highest praise and commendation. Similar eulogy and commendation were given it by Gregory XIII, the successor of Pius V, by Clement XIII, and in our own times by Leo XIII and Pius X. In short, from the time of its publication down to the present time many Pontiffs and Bishops, and a great number of provincial and diocesan synods in various countries, have vied with one another in celebrating the praises of the Catechism of Trent, and in commanding its use. A few of many testimonies may be useful here.

Speaking of the Catechism, Cardinal Valerius, the friend of St. Charles Borromeo, wrote: “This work contains all that is needful for the instruction of the faithful; and its matter is given with such order, clearness, and majesty that through it we seem to hear the Church herself, taught by the Holy Ghost, speaking to us. ... It was composed by order of the Fathers of Trent through the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and was edited by order of the Vicar of Christ.”

In an Encyclical Letter to the Bishops and clergy of France, of Sept. 8, 1889, Pope Leo XIII recommended two books which all Seminarians should possess, and constantly read and study, namely, the Summa of St. Thomas and the Roman Catechism. Regarding the latter he said: “This work is remarkable at once for the richness and exactness of its doctrine, and for the elegance of its style; it is a precious summary of all theology, both dogmatic and moral. He who understands it well, will have always at his service those aids by which a priest is enabled to preach with fruit, to acquit himself worthily of the important ministry of the confessional and of the direction of souls, and will be in a position to refute the objections of unbelievers.”

Salmanticenses, the great Carmelite commentators on St. Thomas, paid the following high tribute to the Catechism: “The authority of this Catechism has always been of the greatest in the Church, because it was composed by the command of the Council of Trent, because its authors were men of highest learning, and because it was approved after the severest scrutiny by popes Pius V and Gregory XIII, and has been recommended in nearly all the Councils that have been held since the Council of Trent.”

Antonio Possevinus, an illustrious Jesuit, and the professor of St. Francis de Sales, said: “The Catechism of the Council of Trent was inspired by the Holy Ghost.”

In his immortal Apologia Cardinal Newman writes: “The Catechism of the Council of Trent was drawn up for the express purpose of providing preachers with subjects for their sermons; and, as my whole work has been a defence of myself, I may here say that I rarely preach a sermon but I go to this beautiful and complete Catechism to get both my matter and my doctrine.”

“Its merits,” says Dr. Donovan, who first translated the Catechism into English, “have been recognized by the universal Church. The first rank which has been awarded the ‘Imitation’ among spiritual books, has been unanimously given to the Roman Catechism as a compendium of Catholic theology. It was the result of the aggregate labors of the most distinguished of the Fathers of Trent, . . . and is therefore stamped with the impress of superior worth.”

Dr. John Hagan, Vice-Rector of the Irish College in Rome, says: “The Roman Catechism is a work of exceptional authority. At the very least it has the same authority as a dogmatic Encyclical, it is an authoritative exposition of Catholic doctrine given forth, and guaranteed to be orthodox by the Catholic Church and her supreme head on earth. The compilation of it was the work of various individuals; but the result of their combined labors was accepted by the Church as a precious abridgment of dogmatic and moral theology. Official docuмents have occasionally been issued by Popes to explain certain points of Catholic teaching to individuals, or to local Christian communities; whereas the Roman Catechism comprises practically the whole body of Christian doctrine, and is addressed to the whole Church. Its teaching is not infallible; but it holds a place between approved catechisms and what is de fide.”

31. Divine Grace: A Series of Instructions Arranged According to the Baltimore Catechism: An Aid to Teachers and Preachers. Edited by Rev. Edmund J. Wirth, Ph.D., D.D., Professor at St. Bernard's Seminary, Rochester, N.Y.
Reference page 91.
New York, Cincinnati, Chicago: Benziger Brothers, 1903.
Nihil Obstat: Remigius Lafort, Censor Librorum.
Imprimatur: JNO. M. Farley, Archbishop of New York.

32. Familiar Explanation of Christian Doctrine, Adapted for the Family and More Advanced Students in Catholic Schools and Colleges, No. III. By Fr. Michael Müller, C.S.S.R.
Reference page 295.
New York: Catholic Publication Society, 1875.
Approbations:
Nihil Obstat: Joseph Helmpraecht, C.SS.R.
Imprimatur: J. Roosevelt Bayley, Archiep. Baltimorensis.

33. Instructions on the Doctrines, Duties, and Resources of the Catholic Religion. Translated from La Doctrine Chrétienne par Lhomond. 2nd American, from the 8th English Ed. by the Rev. James Appleton.
Reference page 217.
Philadelphia: Michael Kelly, 1841.
Approbations:
We approve of the republication of the “Instructions on the Doctrines, Duties, and Resources, of the Catholic Religion, translated from the French of Lhomond, by the Rev. James Appleton.” Given under our hand, at Philadelphia, this 3rd day of May, 1841.
Francis Patrick Kenrick, Bp. Arath and Coadj. of Bp. of Philadelphia.

34. Works of the Right Rev. Bishop Hay of Edinburgh in Five Volumes, Vol. V: The Pious Christian. A new edition edited under the supervision of the Right Rev. Bishop Strain.
Reference page 87.
Edinburgh: William Blackwood and Sons, 1871.

Please remember Edmund in your prayers for his contribution.
35. The Converts Catechism of Christian Doctrine by Rev. Peter Geiermann, C.SS.R.
Reference page 70.
B. Herder Book Co., 1930.
Approbations:
Imprimi Potest: Francis F. Fagan, C.SS.R., Provincial.
Nihil Obstat: M. J. Bresnahan, Censor Librorum.
Imprimatur: Joannes J. Glennon, S.T.D., Archiepiscopus.

36. A Catechisme; Or, Christian Doctrine by Lawrence Vaux, B.D., Canon Regular and Sub-prior of St. Martin's Monastery, Louvain, Sometime Warden of the Collegiate Church, Manchester. Reprinted from an Edition of 1583.
Reference page 53. Manchester: Charles E. Simms, 1885.

37. Doctrinal and Scriptural Catechism; Or, Instructions on the Principal Truths of the Christian Religion. By Rev. P. Collot, Doctor of the Sorbonne. Translated from the French by Mrs. J. Sadlier.
Reference page 154.
New York: D. & J. Sadlier & Co., 1862.
With the approbation of the Most Rev. John Hughes, D.D., Archbishop of New York.

38. The Catholic Christian Instructed in the Sacraments, Sacrifice, Ceremonies, and Observances of the Church, by Way of Question and Answer. By the Rt. Rev. Dr. Challoner.
Reference page 33.
Baltimore: John Murphy & Co, 1852.

39. Historical Catechism; Containing a Summary of Sacred History and Christian Doctrine. By Monsieur Fleury, Abbot of Loc-Deiu, late Sub-preceptor to the King of Spain, the Duke of Burgundy, and the Duke of Berry, 5th Ed.
Reference page 210.
Dublin: Richard Coyne, 1834.

40. The Catechism of the Christian Religion; Being, with Some Small Changes, a Compendium of the Catechism of Montpellier, in which, by the Light of Scripture and Tradition, are Explained the History, Dogmas, Morality, Sacraments, Prayers, Ceremonies and Usages of the Church of Christ. By Rev. Stephen Keenan.
Reference page 287.
Boston: Patrick Donohoe, 1852.
Published with the approval of the Rt. Rev. John B. Fitzgerald, Bishop of Boston.

41. Catechism of Perseverance: An Historical, Doctrinal, Moral and Liturgical Exposition of the Catholic Religion, translated from the French of Abbé Gaume by the Rev. F. B. Jamison. Fiftieth edition, revised and enlarged.
Reference page 209.
Boston: Thomas B. Noonan & Co, 1850.
Approbations:
Published with the approbation of the Most Rev. Archbishop of Baltimore.
We cheerfully recommend to the patronage of the Catholic community the Catechism of Perseverance, translated from the “Petit Catechisme de Perseverance” of the Abbe Gaume, as a work well calculated to impart solid historical, liturgical, moral, and doctrinal instruction in an agreeable format, and being particularly well suited for the purpose of higher religious instruction in Catholic schools and academies.
Martin J., Bishop of Louisville.
Michael, Bishop of Mobile.
Anthony, Bishop of New Orleans.
John, Bishop of Galveston.

42. A Manual of the Catholic Religion for Catechists, Teachers and Self-Instruction, 6th Ed. By the Rev. F. X. Weninger, D.D., S.J.
Reference page 248.
Cincinnati: John P. Walsh, 1867.
Approbations:
I have read and examined the “Manual of the Catholic Doctrine,” by Rev. F. X. Weninger, S.J., with a great deal of pleasure and delight. I know of no work more clear and explicit, or that better meets the exigencies of the times than this; hence, I would exceedingly like to see it translated into English, and freely circulated within the diocese.
John Henry Luers, Bishop of Fort Wayne.

Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: X on August 11, 2018, 07:45:45 AM
@X

You use quotes of fallible men to reject the clear teaching of the sacred and holy, oecuмenical and general Synod of Trent, lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost. The highest authority on earth, the infallible Magisterium of the Church including the Vicar of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

You attack Catholic Dogma using quotes of irrelevant thelogians.

Catholics do not believe in the science of theology, but in Catholic Dogma decreed and defined by authorized Apostles and their authorized successors, authorized by Our Lord Jesus Christ.

I recommend to forget everything you learnt about many baptisms and study one single text of a few screen pages:

Council of Trent, Sixths Session, Decree on Justification, "cuм hoc tempore" (http://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/trent/sixth-session.htm)

You should not only not attack Catholic Dogma, but also listen to the said Council which is "most strictly forbidding that any henceforth presume to believe, preach, or teach, otherwise than as by this present decree is defined and declared."

Stop to believe and spread false teachings and errors.

@Struthio-

I just attached another 42 catechisms refuting Feeney's error.

Somehow, the Church never mentioned why St. Thomas Aquinas was wrong.

Somehow, the Church never mentioned how Pope St. Pius X -infallible when teaching on faith and morals- was wrong.

Somehow, the Church never mentioned how its own infallible Council of Trent was wrong.

Somehow, the Church never mentioned that St. Alphonsus (Doctor of the Church) simply misunderstood Trent.

Somehow, Fr. Ludwig Ott missed that correction as well, when he listed implicit baptism of desire as de fide (like all those above).

Somehow, the near unanimity of approved pre-conciliar theologians collectively all misunderstood true doctrine as well.

Somehow, the Church promulgated 42 catechisms (many more, but the list contains 42) teaching error, and missed the "error" in each instance."

Somehow Lefebvre became an ally of Rahner for accepting the teaching of all the above.

And most importantly, somehow the only man to see the "truth" was excommunicated for "seeing" it.

Sorry Struthio: You and the Feeneyites have VERY OBVIOUSLY departed from binding Church teaching, simply because you lack the humility to accept on authority that which you cannot comprehend intellectually.
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: Struthio on August 11, 2018, 07:45:53 AM
@X

You use irrelevant Catechisms and other irrelevant sources to attack Catholic Dogma.

You use irrelevant Catechisms and other irrelevant sources to attack the clear teaching of the sacred and holy, oecuмenical and general Synod of Trent, lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost. The highest authority on earth, the infallible Magisterium of the Church including the Vicar of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

You use irrelevant Catechisms and other irrelevant sources ignoring the prohibition of the said Council which is "most strictly forbidding that any henceforth presume to believe, preach, or teach, otherwise than as by this present decree is defined and declared."

Stop to believe and spread false teachings and errors.
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: X on August 11, 2018, 07:49:46 AM
@X

You use irrelevant Catechisms and other irrelevant sources to attack Catholic Dogma.

You use irrelevant Catechisms and other irrelevant sources to attack the clear teaching of the sacred and holy, oecuмenical and general Synod of Trent, lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost. The highest authority on earth, the infallible Magisterium of the Church including the Vicar of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

You use irrelevant Catechisms and other irrelevant sources ignoring the prohibition of the said Council which is "most strictly forbidding that any henceforth presume to believe, preach, or teach, otherwise than as by this present decree is defined and declared."

Stop to believe and spread false teachings and errors.

Yes, yes:

The popes are irrelevant,

The ecuмenical Council of Trent is irrelevant,

The saints are irrelevant,

The unanimity of theologians is irrelevant,

The catechisms are all irrelevant,

The doctors of the Church are irrelevant,

The only things which are relevant are the confused teachings of Fr. Feeney, and the sophisms he and his followers have constructed to prop them up.
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: Struthio on August 11, 2018, 07:52:09 AM
@X

I don't say that Feeney was right. I haven't read Feeney. Feeney is irrelevant.

Relevant is, what the holy and sacred Synod of Trent teaches.
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: Struthio on August 11, 2018, 07:56:01 AM
Yes, yes:

The popes are irrelevant

Yes! No pope can change decreed and defined dogma.


The saints are irrelevant

Yes! No saint can change decreed and defined dogma.


The unanimity of theologians is irrelevant

Yes! No consensus of theologians can change decreed and defined dogma.


The catechisms are all irrelevant

Yes! No catechism can change decreed and defined dogma.


The doctors of the Church are irrelevant

Yes! No doctor of the Church can change decreed and defined dogma.


The only things which are relevant are the confused teachings of Fr. Feeney, and the sophisms and heresies he and his followers have constructed to prop them up.

That is a strawman you built yourself. Fr. Feeney can not change decreed and defined dogma.
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: X on August 11, 2018, 07:56:40 AM
@X

I don't say that Feeney was right. I haven't read Feeney. Feeney is irrelevant.

Relevant is, what the holy and sacred Synod of Trent teaches.

Man, Struthio:

If only you had lived 500 years ago, you could have kept:

-The popes from misunderstanding Trent

-The saints from misunderstanding Trent

-The unanimous consensus of approved pre-conciliar theologians from misunderstanding Trent

-The Doctors from misunderstanding Trent

-The unanimous content of the catechisms from misunderstanding Trent

Why did God let that happen??

Oh well, at least we have you to set things straight now.
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: X on August 11, 2018, 07:58:32 AM
Yes! No pope can change decreed and defined dogma.


Yes! No saint can change decreed and defined dogma.


Yes! No consensus of theologians can change decreed and defined dogma.


Yes! No catechism can change decreed and defined dogma.


Yes! No doctor of the Church can change decreed and defined dogma.


That is a strawman you built yourself. Fr. Feeney can not change decreed and defined dogma.

Rock on, brother!

I'm with you:

Sedevacante since 1700!    :o
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: Struthio on August 11, 2018, 08:01:14 AM
Man, Struthio:

If only you had lived 500 years ago, you could have kept:

-The popes from misunderstanding Trent

-The saints from misunderstanding Trent

-The unanimous consensus of approved pre-conciliar theologians from misunderstanding Trent

-The Doctors from misunderstanding Trent

-The unanimous content of the catechisms from misunderstanding Trent

Why did God let that happen??

Oh well, at least we have you to set things straight now.

That's useless polemic.

We must never use irrelevant fallible teachings to attack decreed and defined Catholic Dogma. We must not attack the Faith itself.
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: Struthio on August 11, 2018, 08:03:19 AM
Rock on, brother!

I'm with you:

Sedevacante since 1700!    :o

Again, useless polemic.

We must never use irrelevant fallible teachings to attack decreed and defined Catholic Dogma. We must not attack the Faith itself.
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: X on August 11, 2018, 08:05:17 AM
Again, useless polemic.

We must never use irrelevant fallible teachings to attack decreed and defined Catholic Dogma. We must not attack the Faith itself.

Yes, yes:

"useless" and "irrelevant."

Have a great day, and don't forget to be faithful to "the Dogma!"
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: Struthio on August 11, 2018, 08:11:31 AM
Have a great day, and don't forget to be faithful to "the Dogma!"

Thank you! Have a great day, too.

There is no Faith other than faithful to Catholic Dogma.

The catechumen asks for that Faith immediately before the sacrament of baptism. Receiving the sacrament then, faith, hope, and charity are infused into him. (see link above) That's the way how it works and noone is allowed to believe, preach, or teach otherwise.
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: Last Tradhican on August 11, 2018, 10:57:30 AM
Read Msgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton's The Catholic Church and Salvation that's what I am doing now.

It seems odd that people would attack Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre for his adherence to baptism of desire as if that meant he believed in universal salvation. The majority of his life as a missionary priest rejected such a notion.

The enemy is most certainly NOT Archbishop Lefebvre.
He gets criticized (not attacked) for his belief in salvation for those that have no desire for baptism, no desire to be a Catholic, no belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity, in other words his belief in salvation by implicit faith, that believing in a God that rewards (implicit faith) is a substitute for the sacrament of baptism, and baptism of desire and baptism of blood. Not one saint ever taught salvation by implicit faith.
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: JPaul on August 11, 2018, 11:01:28 AM
X,  Is that you Sean?...................you cannot help yourself, can you?
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: JPaul on August 11, 2018, 11:08:22 AM
In what manner will He "convict the world"? He will condemn the world, which means that He will condemn the ignorant and the unbelieving who continue unbelieving ... and who must die because of their offenses.
 St. Cyril of Alexandria
 
 He will convict the world of sin: that is, He will cut off all their excuses and show them that they have sinned in not believing.
 St. John Chrysostom
 
 What excuse shall he have, what mercy can he hope for, who corrupts the adorable and ineffable dogmas of our faith? This cannot be! It cannot, I say!
 St. John Chrysostom 
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: Last Tradhican on August 11, 2018, 11:12:44 AM
It was established in the other thread that implicit baptism of desire is de fide (Ott; Alphonsus; Trent)
Baptism of desire could mean anything today, the meaning has changed, like the word gαy. Implicit Baptism of desire as used today is really something else, it is implicit faith.
To my knowledge OTT does not teach that implicit baptism of desire is defide. I have seen St. Alphonsus Ligouri teaching that baptism of desire is defide, however, he also teaches that at a minimum the person must believe in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity (same as St. Thomas Aquinas). Anyone that believes in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity, complicated subjects which are only learned by accepting  God's Grace, would surely also know about baptism and desire it too. Nevertheless, the fact that an OTT or even a saint opines that something is defide does not make it defide.

The debate in the other thread was about salvation for Hindus, Buddhist, Jєωs etc. by their belief in a God that rewards, which the writer SJ erroneously called implicit baptism of desire.
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: Last Tradhican on August 11, 2018, 11:29:01 AM
Since Feeneyites and BOD deniers are excommunicated, they will have to found a new sect.
Unlike the SSPX which is separated from Rome, the direct spiritual descendants of Fr. Feeney are accepted by Rome and are in union with Rome. Excommunications come from Rome not individuals opinions.

One second on the internet should reveal the truth, even Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism

After Feeney's death, his spiritual descendants soon split into several groups due to various power struggles. The two most prominent both use the name Saint Benedict Center.
Three of these groups exist on or near the land Feeney moved to in Still River, Massachusetts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Still_River,_Massachusetts):



The other branch, located in Richmond, New Hampshire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond,_New_Hampshire), has no official recognition from the Catholic Church.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism#cite_note-splc-6)[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism#cite_note-Grossmith-7) The Southern Poverty Law Center (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Poverty_Law_Center) (SPLC) classifies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_organizations_designated_by_the_Southern_Poverty_Law_Center_as_hate_groups) the center in Richmond, as well as the group's publishing arm Immaculate Heart Media, as an anti-Semitic hate group (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_group).[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism#cite_note-2007IR-8)[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism#cite_note-Grossmith-7) The SPLC wrote that the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary "continue to endorse Feeney and to defend him from charges of anti-Semitism, despite his well-docuмented hatred of the Jєωs" and noted that in 2004, Bishop McCormack had rebuked the group as "blatantly anti-Semitic," and that in 2005, a brother of the Slaves had given a speech calling out the "Jєωιѕн nation" as "the perpetual enemy of Christ."[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism#cite_note-2007IR-8) The center denies being anti-Semitic.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism#cite_note-9)[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism#cite_note-Grossmith-7)
In the 1978, three sisters from Feeney's original group sought to become Benedictine nuns. Nuns from Stanbrook Abbey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanbrook_Abbey) to help establish their priory, which was formally erected in 1984 as Saint Scholastica Priory.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism#cite_note-10) The nuns were later joined by a group of Benedictine monks who were established as Saint Mary Monastery, a dependent house of Pluscarden Abbey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluscarden_Abbey).
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: Last Tradhican on August 11, 2018, 11:48:49 AM
Unlike the SSPX which is separated from Rome, the direct spiritual descendants of Fr. Feeney are accepted by Rome and are in union with Rome. Excommunications come from Rome not individuals opinions.

One second on the internet should reveal the truth, even Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism

After Feeney's death, his spiritual descendants soon split into several groups due to various power struggles. The two most prominent both use the name Saint Benedict Center.
Three of these groups exist on or near the land Feeney moved to in Still River, Massachusetts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Still_River,_Massachusetts):



The other branch, located in Richmond, New Hampshire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond,_New_Hampshire), has no official recognition from the Catholic Church.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism#cite_note-splc-6)[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism#cite_note-Grossmith-7) The Southern Poverty Law Center (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Poverty_Law_Center) (SPLC) classifies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_organizations_designated_by_the_Southern_Poverty_Law_Center_as_hate_groups) the center in Richmond, as well as the group's publishing arm Immaculate Heart Media, as an anti-Semitic hate group (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_group).[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism#cite_note-2007IR-8)[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism#cite_note-Grossmith-7) The SPLC wrote that the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary "continue to endorse Feeney and to defend him from charges of anti-Semitism, despite his well-docuмented hatred of the Jєωs" and noted that in 2004, Bishop McCormack had rebuked the group as "blatantly anti-Semitic," and that in 2005, a brother of the Slaves had given a speech calling out the "Jєωιѕн nation" as "the perpetual enemy of Christ."[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism#cite_note-2007IR-8) The center denies being anti-Semitic.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism#cite_note-9)[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism#cite_note-Grossmith-7)
In the 1978, three sisters from Feeney's original group sought to become Benedictine nuns. Nuns from Stanbrook Abbey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanbrook_Abbey) to help establish their priory, which was formally erected in 1984 as Saint Scholastica Priory.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism#cite_note-10) The nuns were later joined by a group of Benedictine monks who were established as Saint Mary Monastery, a dependent house of Pluscarden Abbey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluscarden_Abbey).
The Wiki did not copy and paste above complete, here it is again:

After Feeney's death, his spiritual descendants soon split into several groups due to various power struggles. The two most prominent both use the name Saint Benedict Center.
Three of these groups exist on or near the land Feeney moved to in Still River, Massachusetts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Still_River,_Massachusetts):

The other branch, located in Richmond, New Hampshire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond,_New_Hampshire), has no official recognition from the Catholic Church.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism#cite_note-splc-6)[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism#cite_note-Grossmith-7) The Southern Poverty Law Center (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Poverty_Law_Center) (SPLC) classifies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_organizations_designated_by_the_Southern_Poverty_Law_Center_as_hate_groups) the center in Richmond, as well as the group's publishing arm Immaculate Heart Media, as an anti-Semitic hate group (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_group).[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism#cite_note-2007IR-8)[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism#cite_note-Grossmith-7) The SPLC wrote that the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary "continue to endorse Feeney and to defend him from charges of anti-Semitism, despite his well-docuмented hatred of the Jєωs" and noted that in 2004, Bishop McCormack had rebuked the group as "blatantly anti-Semitic," and that in 2005, a brother of the Slaves had given a speech calling out the "Jєωιѕн nation" as "the perpetual enemy of Christ."[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism#cite_note-2007IR-8) The center denies being anti-Semitic.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism#cite_note-9)[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism#cite_note-Grossmith-7)
In the 1978, three sisters from Feeney's original group sought to become Benedictine nuns. Nuns from Stanbrook Abbey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanbrook_Abbey) to help establish their priory, which was formally erected in 1984 as Saint Scholastica Priory.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism#cite_note-10) The nuns were later joined by a group of Benedictine monks who were established as Saint Mary Monastery, a dependent house of Pluscarden Abbey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluscarden_Abbey).








Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: JPaul on August 11, 2018, 11:54:23 AM
Since Feeneyites and BOD deniers are excommunicated, they will have to found a new sect.
Excommunicated by who?  The scholars of the SSPX, or their doctinal spinoff sedevacantists, or Sean X Johnson?
Quote
"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:"
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: Last Tradhican on August 11, 2018, 11:59:25 AM
OK, I finally got it to paste, I had to remove all the hyperlinks, here it is:


After Feeney's death, his spiritual descendants soon split into several groups due to various power struggles. The two most prominent both use the name Saint Benedict Center.

Three of these groups exist on or near the land Feeney moved to in Still River, Massachusetts:

·         The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, a group of men and women in private vows, staff the Saint Benedict Center. Their apostolates include education (operating Immaculate Heart of Mary School), publishing, as well as a summer camp for boys and girls. The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary exclusively use the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite. They were raised to a Public Association of the Faithful in 2017 by Bishop Robert McManus.

·         The Sisters of the Saint Benedict Center operate Saint Anne's House, an order of diocesan right in the Diocese of Worcester. The sisters focus on education, and exclusively use the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite.

·         St. Benedict Abbey is a house of Benedictine monks, using the extraordinary form in Latin.

The other branch, located in Richmond, New Hampshire, has no official recognition from the Catholic Church.  The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) classifies the center in Richmond, as well as the group's publishing arm Immaculate Heart Media, as an anti-Semitic hate group. The SPLC wrote that the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary "continue to endorse Feeney and to defend him from charges of anti-Semitism, despite his well-docuмented hatred of the Jєωs" and noted that in 2004, Bishop McCormack had rebuked the group as "blatantly anti-Semitic," and that in 2005, a brother of the Slaves had given a speech calling out the "Jєωιѕн nation" as "the perpetual enemy of Christ."[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism#cite_note-2007IR-8) The center denies being anti-Semitic.
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: roscoe on August 11, 2018, 03:52:58 PM
Since Feeneyites and BOD deniers are excommunicated, they will have to found a new sect.
There is NO SUCH THING  as a 'Feeneyite'...
& BTW-- any piece of paper claiming that Fr Feeney was called to Rome or ex-communicated for not complying is a Fraud.... :fryingpan:
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: Ladislaus on August 11, 2018, 03:53:05 PM
He must have a very fragile ego.

He most certainly does.  He pouted and ran away from a thread, then eventually the entire forum, when I exposed a couple of his lies about Archbishop Lefebvre on a different topic.
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: Ladislaus on August 11, 2018, 03:55:37 PM
Read Msgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton's The Catholic Church and Salvation that's what I am doing now.

It seems odd that people would attack Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre for his adherence to baptism of desire as if that meant he believed in universal salvation. The majority of his life as a missionary priest rejected such a notion.

The enemy is most certainly NOT Archbishop Lefebvre.

Except that +Lefebvre believed in the salvation of infidels ... and if that isn't universal salvation then nothing is.  Case closed ... despite the incoherent rambling of one SeanJohnson.

I'm sorry, but +Lefebvre was part of the problem on this crucial question.

By the way, Fenton believed in the requirement for explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation for salvation, whereas +Lefebvre did not.
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: Ladislaus on August 11, 2018, 03:59:05 PM
or Sean X Johnson?

:laugh1:

this guy is pathetic, isn't he?
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: cathman7 on August 11, 2018, 04:58:40 PM
Except that +Lefebvre believed in the salvation of infidels ... and if that isn't universal salvation then nothing is.  Case closed ... despite the incoherent rambling of one SeanJohnson.

I'm sorry, but +Lefebvre was part of the problem on this crucial question.

By the way, Fenton believed in the requirement for explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation for salvation, whereas +Lefebvre did not.

I am reading Fenton's book now. He states in the beginning of the book that Suprema haec (1949) gives the most detailed and authoritative statement of the dogma that the Catholic Church is necessary for eternal salvation. That docuмent seems to be a major bone of contention with "followers" of Fr. Feeney. I would imagine Archbishop Lefebvre adhered to that docuмent. 
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: JPaul on August 11, 2018, 05:03:26 PM
Quote
We know that salvation belongs to the Church alone, and that no one can partake of Christ nor be saved outside the Catholic Church and Catholic faith.
 St. John Chrysostom 
 
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: cathman7 on August 11, 2018, 05:08:11 PM
Quote
Quote
We know that salvation belongs to the Church alone, and that no one can partake of Christ nor be saved outside the Catholic Church and Catholic faith.
 St. John Chrysostom

Okay, and the Church interprets this dogma neither you nor me does the interpreting. Are you implying +Lefebvre would reject that? 
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: Ladislaus on August 11, 2018, 05:52:56 PM
I am reading Fenton's book now. He states in the beginning of the book that Suprema haec (1949) gives the most detailed and authoritative statement of the dogma that the Catholic Church is necessary for eternal salvation. That docuмent seems to be a major bone of contention with "followers" of Fr. Feeney. I would imagine Archbishop Lefebvre adhered to that docuмent.

Yes, somehow Fenton believes that Suprema Haec does not rule out the requirement of explicit faith.  Never quite understood how he got that from the docuмent.  To me it clearly lays out implicit faith.  So, at least according to Fenton, this part of +Lefebvre's position is neither here nor there in terms of SH.
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 11, 2018, 11:12:40 PM
Quote
a) An implicit desire for Baptism, that is, one that is included in a general purpose of keeping all the commandments of God is, as all agree, sufficient in one who is invincibly ignorant of the law of Baptism;
This is an erroneous application of what ‘implicit’ means.  Implicit does not mean some mysterious, subconscious, spiritual yearning of which the person is not aware.  A person ignorant of baptism CANNOT have an implicit desire of it.  It’s impossible.  

The Modernists have twisted the idea of implicit to mean some ambiguous “yearning for God”.

An implicit desire for baptism necessitates that one a) knows about Christ/Church, b) believes in Christ/Church, and c) is interested in joining the Church, but hasn’t expressed this clearly.  Anything less than this, is not an implicit desire.  
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: Neil Obstat on August 11, 2018, 11:18:57 PM

Quote from: JPaul on Today at 09:54:23 AM (https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/continued-in-the-ghetto-baptism-of-desire-and-bishop-williamson-on-the-newmass/msg622160/#msg622160)
Quote
or Sean X Johnson?

:laugh1:

this guy is pathetic, isn't he?
.
Imagine going that far just to pretend not to be entering the ghetto! Fraudulent double accounts?
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: Neil Obstat on August 11, 2018, 11:21:54 PM
This is an erroneous application of what ‘implicit’ means.  Implicit does not mean some mysterious, subconscious, spiritual yearning of which the person is not aware.  A person ignorant of baptism CANNOT have an implicit desire of it.  It’s impossible.  

The Modernists have twisted the idea of implicit to mean some ambiguous “yearning for God”.

An implicit desire for baptism necessitates that one a) knows about Christ/Church, b) believes in Christ/Church, and c) is interested in joining the Church, but hasn’t expressed this clearly.  Anything less than this, is not an implicit desire.  
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It has become for some a vague longing for something good, is all. So that suffices, they say, to replace water Baptism.
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 11, 2018, 11:28:53 PM
Quote
Implicit Baptism of desire as used today is really something else, it is implicit faith. 
EXACTLY!  And that’s how BOD’ers move from catechumens being saved to an Indian on a deserted island (who is, obviously, a saint-in-waiting and loves God perfectly) - they confuse (or, they’ve BEEN confused by Modernists) implicit desire of a sacrament with knowledge of the Faith.  If one can silently/secretly desire baptism and receive it, why can’t one silently/secretly desire the Faith as well?  Therefore, if one can secretly desire the Faith, therefore, there exist MANY people who have “good will” and who were catholic SECRELTY, as +ABL said, and saved “in spite of their false religions.”

Terrible logic and a terrible understanding of God’s religion.  
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: Neil Obstat on August 11, 2018, 11:47:58 PM
EXACTLY!  And that’s how BOD’ers move from catechumens being saved to an Indian on a deserted island (who is, obviously, a saint-in-waiting and loves God perfectly) - they confuse (or, they’ve BEEN confused by Modernists) implicit desire of a sacrament with knowledge of the Faith.  If one can silently/secretly desire baptism and receive it, why can’t one silently/secretly desire the Faith as well?  Therefore, if one can secretly desire the Faith, therefore, there exist MANY people who have “good will” and who were catholic SECRELTY, as +ABL said, and saved “in spite of their false religions.”

Terrible logic and a terrible understanding of God’s religion.  
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If only Our Lord had explained it that way from the beginning, imagine all the trouble it would have saved the Church through the centuries. 
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All those missionaries like St. Isaac Jogues and companions risking their lives -- for what? Those noble savages (who chewed off the missionaries' fingers and drank their blood) could have been living virtuous lives without learning about the Church! 
Title: Re: Continued in the Ghetto: Baptism of Desire and Bishop Williamson on the Newmass
Post by: Ladislaus on August 16, 2018, 02:39:06 PM
Imagine going that far just to pretend not to be entering the ghetto! Fraudulent double accounts?

After his last tantrum, he posted in the Anonymous forum for a while before returning.

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