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Author Topic: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans  (Read 6112 times)

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Offline trad123

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Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
« Reply #165 on: August 09, 2019, 09:45:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 09, 2019, 02:03:02 PM
    One of the Church Fathers, (St Cyprian I believe?) was condemned for his error that heretics needed to be re-baptized after returning to the Faith.
    St Augustine went back and forth on predestination and what it meant.  He also went back and forth on BOD.
    St Thomas, a Doctor of the Church, was wrong on the Immaculate Conception (though it was more a lack of understanding of modern science, than a doctrinal error).
    St Alphonsus is not immune from error, either.
    .
    The difference between St Alphonsus and modern day BOD'ers is that St Alphonsus, even though he argued that BOD was "de fide", would readily cast aside his speculations if the Church had corrected him.  While most BOD'ers defend this idea as if it is "de fide" and admit no room for error.
    .
    St Alphonsus died in 1787, at the beginning of the liberalization of the Church.  It's not surprising that his error was not corrected.



    https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/genuinely-curious-rejection-of-baptism-and-the-council-of-trent/msg611547/#msg611547



    Quote
    Council of Trent 1545-1563
    Canons on the Sacraments in General: - (Canon 4):
       "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them (sine eis aut eorum voto),     through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema."


    Quote
    Bernard Of Clairvaux: On Baptism And The Office of the Bishops, pgs. 159 - 160

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0879075678/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0879075678&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20

    8. It would be hard, believe me, to tear me away from these two pillars--I mean Augustine and Ambrose. I own to going along with them in wisdom or in error, for I too believe that a person can be saved by faith alone, through the desire to receive the sacrament, but only if such a one is forestalled by death or prevented by some other insuperable force from implementing this devout desire. Perhaps this was why the Savior, when he said: Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, took care not to repeat 'whoever is not baptized', but only, whoever does not believe will be condemned, imitating strongly that faith is sometimes sufficient for salvation and that without it nothing suffices.  

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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline homeschoolmom

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #166 on: August 09, 2019, 09:47:46 PM »
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    •  :) Ok, thank you! I have a feeling they might object to some of Sean's phrasing but trad123's seem pretty impartial. I do believe in Baptism of Desire and of Blood so maybe that wasn't so difficult. But I do see what they are saying. Baptism of Desire is the inch where people will take a mile. It can be a slippery slope.
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    Offline trad123

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #167 on: August 09, 2019, 10:00:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 09, 2019, 09:50:06 AM
    Do you know that the word routinely translated as "desire" is the Latin votum?  Now the word votum is actually a form the verb volo ... a principle part or inflection of the Latin word that means "to will".  So in using the votum, Trent is actually saying that one cannot be justified without the Sacrament (ex opere operato grace) AND the WILL.  To claim that Trent is teaching that one can be justified with EITHER the Sacrament OR the will actually undermines the very thing Trent was trying to teach, that justification cannot be willed (in Pelagian and Protestant fashion) without first there being an unmerited grace.

    Ladislaus,

    I want to know your thoughts on this , from the first post of this thread, of the St. Bellarmine forum:

    http://sedevacantist.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=115



    Written by Mr. Daly:


    Now, here is a passage from issue No.3, p. 30. Dimond is commenting on a text from the Council of Trent (Chapter 4, Session 6, On Justification) which he claims has been mistranslated.
     


    Quote
    "Mistranslation...'In these words a description of the justification of a sinner is given as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam to the state of grace...; and this translation after the promulgation of the Gospel cannot be effected except through the laver of regeneration or the desire for it...'
     
    "One who reads the mistranslation of this passage from Trent would probably think that Trent is teaching that one can enter into the state of grace either through Baptism or by the desire for it. However an accurate translation renders the meaning of Trent totally different. In fact the original Latin of the passage 'except through the laver of regeneration or the desire for it,' is 'sine lavacro regenerationis aut eius voto'.
     
    "True Translation - 'and this translation...cannot be effected WITHOUT...the laver of regeneration or the desire for it'...
     
    "...The subtle change of 'without' to 'except through' changes the entire meaning of the statement. The word 'without' used in this passage means that justification CANNOT happen without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it. Trent is simply distinguishing between the requirements for infant baptism as opposed to [sic] that of adults. Infants cannot desire baptism. Therefore in their case only the laver of regeneration is required to effect the sacrament. Adults on the other hand must have the desire for the sacrament that they are receiving..."


    XXXX, the mind capable of conceiving the ideas herein expressed is a ruined instrument for the apprehension of truth. And the mind capable of being deceived by them is sadly lacking in discernment, to say the least.
     
    Trent dogmatically teaches that justification is impossible without either (a) Baptism, or (b) desire for Baptism.
     
    Dimond brazenly declares that it means no such thing. It means, in his view, to affirm that justification is in all cases impossible without baptism, and that in addition to baptism, desire for the sacrament is also needed in the case of adults.
     
    Now the word "or" does not have that meaning. Hunt in as many Thesauri as you will. The Dimond meaning is not even, at a stretch, a possible meaning of the text he is writing about. Trent's words cannot possibly bear the meaning Dimond attaches to them.
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #168 on: August 09, 2019, 10:02:40 PM »
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    • Quote
    Baptism of Desire is the inch where people will take a mile. It can be a slippery slope.
    Because the Church has never explained it, formally.  If you talk to 100 BOD'ers, you'll get 100 different answers on how it works, when, and to what extent.  Even the Saints do not agree on the specifics.  Does this type of variance exist with any other defined dogma? 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #169 on: August 09, 2019, 10:13:54 PM »
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    • Quote
    Trent dogmatically teaches that justification is impossible without either (a) Baptism, or (b) desire for Baptism.
    Trad123, most Feeneyites (including Fr Feeney) will grant you the above, even if it's debatable.  Let's just assume the above is true.  The main contention, that which the Church has not explained is the below question that Sean wrote.  Can a justified, but non-baptized person go to heaven?  Trent NEVER says this is the case.  Fr Feeney says he doesn't know.  St Thomas says without the indelible mark/wedding garment, it is not certain.  St Alphonsus admits that the lack of the baptismal character is problematic.  The below question is THE issue which the Church has yet to explain.
    .
    .
    1) Do you believe that those who die in the state of sanctifying grace could nevertheless be deprived of the beatific vision (i.e., could be damned)?
    .
    Feeneyites say neither yes or no to the above.  Most likely the answer is Limbo.  BOD'ers say absolutely no, the person goes to heaven.  BOD'ers say that anyone who says otherwise is a heretic.  Thus the debate continues.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #170 on: August 09, 2019, 10:43:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 09, 2019, 10:02:40 PM
    Because the Church has never explained it, formally.  If you talk to 100 BOD'ers, you'll get 100 different answers on how it works, when, and to what extent.  Even the Saints do not agree on the specifics.  Does this type of variance exist with any other defined dogma?
    There's only one "specific" that matters:
    There IS salvation without water baptism.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #171 on: August 09, 2019, 10:52:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 09, 2019, 10:02:40 PM
    Because the Church has never explained it, formally.  If you talk to 100 BOD'ers, you'll get 100 different answers on how it works, when, and to what extent.  Even the Saints do not agree on the specifics.  Does this type of variance exist with any other defined dogma?
    I agree with BOD but I'm not convinced its a dogma.  I just think its clearly allowed at the moment, and I don't think its possible to pull some cheesy one liner from either the Bible or Trent and be like "SEE, ST ALPHONSUS AND ST THOMAS WERE OBVIOUSLY WRONG" (I'm not saying you're doing this BTW, I'm just saying that's what I see from SOME Feeneyites and its a concerning trend.)  If someone just isn't convinced of BOD I don't really have an issue with them, and I'm willing to submit to a future church ruling that rules it out, should one be presented.  But I think its impossible that its condemned at the moment, and certainly not with a straightforward and obvious argument/
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #172 on: August 09, 2019, 11:02:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on August 09, 2019, 10:52:31 PM
    I agree with BOD but I'm not convinced its a dogma.  I just think its clearly allowed at the moment, and I don't think its possible to pull some cheesy one liner from either the Bible or Trent and be like "SEE, ST ALPHONSUS AND ST THOMAS WERE OBVIOUSLY WRONG" (I'm not saying you're doing this BTW, I'm just saying that's what I see from SOME Feeneyites and its a concerning trend.)  If someone just isn't convinced of BOD I don't really have an issue with them, and I'm willing to submit to a future church ruling that rules it out, should one be presented.  But I think its impossible that its condemned at the moment, and certainly not with a straightforward and obvious argument/

    The only real debate is whether it is de fide via Trent, or via the continuous ordinary magisterium, or both.

    https://www.olrl.org/misc/Feeneyism.pdf
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #173 on: August 09, 2019, 11:07:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 09, 2019, 11:02:40 PM
    The only real debate is whether it is de fide via Trent, or via the continuous ordinary magisterium, or both.

    https://www.olrl.org/misc/Feeneyism.pdf
    Maybe you're right about the continuous ordinary magisterium, but I'd have to figure out precisely how the continuous ordinary magisterium works first.  I mean, this is a major point of contention between Sedes and R + Rs, but I haven't found anything close to a clear answer yet. So I'm not sure how it applies to BOD either/
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #174 on: August 10, 2019, 12:00:07 AM »
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    • Quote
    There IS salvation without water baptism.

    Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


    Let’s see...should I follow Christ’s Church or Sean’s?  Hmm...
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    Offline donkath

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #175 on: August 10, 2019, 12:05:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: homeschoolmom on August 09, 2019, 07:34:35 PM
    Can someone make up a quiz we can take to know if we are Feeneyite or not? It might sound silly but I really wouldn't mind it. I can't follow all this. I need something straight forward! To the point.

    How To Know You're a Feeneyite in 5 Questions or Less
    One is either Catholic or not Catholic.  There is no such thing as a Feenyite.
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    Offline donkath

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #176 on: August 10, 2019, 12:19:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 09, 2019, 11:02:40 PM
    The only real debate is whether it is de fide via Trent, or via the continuous ordinary magisterium, or both.

    https://www.olrl.org/misc/Feeneyism.pdf


    Analysis of Fr. Laisney's treatise
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #177 on: August 10, 2019, 05:18:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: homeschoolmom on August 09, 2019, 07:34:35 PM
    Can someone make up a quiz we can take to know if we are Feeneyite or not? It might sound silly but I really wouldn't mind it. I can't follow all this. I need something straight forward! To the point.

    How To Know You're a Feeneyite in 5 Questions or Less
    Only need one question: If you profess the below creed, you are a "Feeneyite".

    Athanasian Creed (4th Century)
    1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
    2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
    3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
    4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
    5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
    6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
    7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
    8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
    9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
    10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
    11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
    12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
    13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
    14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
    15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
    16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
    17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
    18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
    19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
    20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
    21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
    22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
    23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
    24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
    25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
    26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
    27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
    28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
    29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
    31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
    32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
    33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
    34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
    35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
    36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
    37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
    38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
    39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
    40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
    41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
    42. and shall give account of their own works.
    43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
    44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #178 on: August 10, 2019, 05:43:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on August 09, 2019, 11:07:48 PM
    Maybe you're right about the continuous ordinary magisterium, but I'd have to figure out precisely how the continuous ordinary magisterium works first.  I mean, this is a major point of contention between Sedes and R + Rs, but I haven't found anything close to a clear answer yet. So I'm not sure how it applies to BOD either/
    We you are calling the "continuous ordinary magisterium", is known as the Universal Magisterium.

    Pope Pius IX explains the Church's Universal Magisterium as:

    "All that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world, and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a *universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith".

    *He explains that "universal" means "almost unanimous","constant" means "since the time of the Apostles".


    Fr. Wathen:

    "One of the saints, [St. Vincent of Lerins (died 445)].. made a statement concerning heresy and orthodoxy which I find both wonderfully intriguing as well as important.  He says that the true faith is that which has been believed by all the people all the time. [He is] Speaking about all the faithful, all those who are in the Church, which is to say that any idea that has not been held as a part of Catholic doctrine through all the generations of the Church by the vast majority of the people, is not Catholic. Which is to say that at any given time an idea can be widely held even by the vast majority of the people, as is liberalism among Catholics today.  Also a heretical idea can be shown to have been held by a small group within the Church all through history or during a number of generations of history. But the true doctrine of the Church is that which has been held always by everyone." - (Reference The Vincentian Canon of St. Vincent of Lerins)



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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #179 on: August 10, 2019, 06:56:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 10, 2019, 12:00:07 AM
    Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


    Let’s see...should I follow Christ’s Church or Sean’s?  Hmm...
    Amen, amen, I say you have no idea what you are talking about.  If only poor, stupid Alphonsus had rread Fr. Feeney, he would have understood how wrong he was!
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."
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