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Author Topic: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans  (Read 6115 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
« on: August 07, 2019, 11:55:28 AM »
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    • Both the Syllabus of Errors and the Oath Against Modernism condemn the ideas that 1) a man may be saved in a false religion and 2) that a good-willed man, who follows the natural law, can have supernatural Faith, which saves.
    .
    Syllabus of Errors – Bl Pope Pius IX - 1864
    16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. — Encyclical “Qui pluribus,” Nov. 9, 1846.
    .
    .
    Pope St Pius X's "Oath Against Modernism" of 1910
    Fifthly, I hold with certainty and sincerely confess that faith is not a blind sentiment of religion welling up from the depths of the subconscious under the impulse of the heart and the motion of a will trained to morality; but faith is a genuine assent of the intellect to truth received by hearing from an external source.
    .
    By this assent, because of the authority of the supremely truthful God, we believe to be true that which has been revealed and attested to by a personal God, our creator and lord.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #1 on: August 07, 2019, 12:24:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 07, 2019, 11:55:28 AM
    Pope St Pius X's "Oath Against Modernism" of 1910
    Fifthly, I hold with certainty and sincerely confess that faith is not a blind sentiment of religion welling up from the depths of the subconscious under the impulse of the heart and the motion of a will trained to morality; but faith is a genuine assent of the intellect to truth received by hearing from an external source.

    This is fantastic.  I don't recall seeing it before, but this absolutely condemns the subjectivist soteriology behind Vatican II ... and, alas, embraced by most modernist-infected Trads.
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    Offline Struthio

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    CONDEMNED: Salvation for anyone without the sacrament of baptism
    « Reply #2 on: August 07, 2019, 01:13:21 PM »
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    • CONDEMNED:  Salvation for anyone without the sacrament of baptism1


    Quote from: Vatican Council, Session 2, Jan 6, 1870
    Profession of faith

    1. [...] profession of faith which the holy Roman Church uses, namely:
    [...]
    4. I profess also that there are seven sacraments of the new law, truly and properly so called, instituted by our lord Jesus Christ and necessary for salvation, though each person need not receive them all. [...]
    [...]
    14. [...]
    This true catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess [...]


    1) anyone without the sacrament of baptism, that includes catechumens without the sacrament of baptism





    CONDEMNED:  Salvation for anyone rejecting this true catholic faith2, outside of which none can be saved

    Quote from: Vatican Council, Session 2, Jan 6, 1870
    Profession of faith

    1. [...] profession of faith which the holy Roman Church uses, namely:
    [...]
    4. I profess also that there are seven sacraments of the new law, truly and properly so called, instituted by our lord Jesus Christ and necessary for salvation, though each person need not receive them all. [...]
    [...]
    14. [...]
    This true catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess [...]


    2) anyone rejecting this true catholic faith, that includes CI members rejecting this true catholic faith.


    papalencyclicals.net, Vatican Council
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    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #3 on: August 07, 2019, 01:24:17 PM »
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    • I don't think anyone here rejects what Vatican I says there.
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    Offline homeschoolmom

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #4 on: August 07, 2019, 01:28:52 PM »
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    • I admit I haven't followed the posts about who can be saved, so my question has probably been covered many times before. But this is a nice short thread so I'm going to ask here and I hope it can be answered easily. When it comes to good-willed people of invincible ignorance who lived lives of natural virtue, I was taught not that they are saved but that they go to limbo. And that it's rare. Where does this fit in the modernist vs Catholic spectrum?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #5 on: August 07, 2019, 01:53:16 PM »
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    • My question is:

    If God damns a person who never had a chance to know the faith, in what way would he remain just (ie., such damnation would be an injustice, which would impute imperfection to god, which is impossible)?
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #6 on: August 07, 2019, 01:59:42 PM »
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    • Quote
    When it comes to good-willed people of invincible ignorance who lived lives of natural virtue, I was taught not that they are saved but that they go to limbo.
    In short, yes, I agree with this.  But it's still a theory.
    .
    1.  Limbo has not ever been defined by the Church.  No one is required to believe it.  Though many theologians hold that Limbo is part of hell and a natural place of happiness.
    2.  Theologians argue that those who die in natural innocence (i.e. babies, mentally challenged, and...on occasion...the innocent pagan) would not suffer eternal fire, since they are not PERSONALLY culpable of sin. 
    3.  They are still guilty of Original Sin, which prevents them from heaven.  So, the idea of Limbo exists.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #7 on: August 07, 2019, 02:05:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: homeschoolmom on August 07, 2019, 01:28:52 PM
    I admit I haven't followed the posts about who can be saved, so my question has probably been covered many times before. But this is a nice short thread so I'm going to ask here and I hope it can be answered easily. When it comes to good-willed people of invincible ignorance who lived lives of natural virtue, I was taught not that they are saved but that they go to limbo. And that it's rare. Where does this fit in the modernist vs Catholic spectrum?
    I'm pretty sure its dogmatic that supernatural faith is needed for salvation, and thus that what you say here is correct, I believe the debate would be over whether its *possible* for someone who's ignorant of the Catholic faith (and to what extent) could nevertheless *in some way* have supernatural faith.  I don't know for sure if that's possible, but I'm not sure it couldn't be.

    I err on the side of presuming that those who are visibly non-Catholic in the way you describe are lost, and need to convert, but since I won't absolutely say that's certain, some people here think I'm modernist.  

    It gets trickier when it comes to baptized Christians, if they're formal heretics they're still damned, but as they have baptism they'd seem to "default" to being Catholic in absence of formal heresy (which, how often that happens I'm not sure.  It could never happen.)
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #8 on: August 07, 2019, 02:05:53 PM »
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    If God damns a person who never had a chance to know the faith, in what way would he remain just (ie., such damnation would be an injustice, which would impute imperfection to god, which is impossible)?
    1.  God wills that all are saved and "come to the knowledge of the Truth."
    2.  Salvation and heaven are a gift, not a right.
    3.  Infants who die or are aborted do not have the opportunity to hear the Gospel, yet they also would not suffer in hell, but would enjoy natural happiness in Limbo (which is part of hell).
    .
    I assume you are playing devil's advocate, but your question borders on blasphemy.  The overall answer is #2 above.  God knows all men's hearts and those whom He knows will not accept the Faith, He does not have to give them this chance.  Again, the Faith and heaven and salvation are a gift, not a right.  It is a mystery of salvation that God knows who will accept or reject the Faith from all eternity.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #9 on: August 07, 2019, 02:12:03 PM »
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    I believe the debate would be over whether its *possible* for someone who's ignorant of the Catholic faith (and to what extent) could nevertheless *in some way* have supernatural faith.  I don't know for sure if that's possible, but I'm not sure it couldn't be.

    Pope St Pius X's "Oath Against Modernism" of 1910
    Fifthly, I hold with certainty and sincerely confess that faith is not a blind sentiment of religion welling up from the depths of the subconscious under the impulse of the heart and the motion of a will trained to morality; but faith is a genuine assent of the intellect to truth received by hearing from an external source.
    .
    St Pius X says it's not possible for supernatural Faith to be had, unless you hear the Faith/Truth externally.  One cannot have supernatural faith by good-will, or a good heart.  Ergo, those who have not heard the Faith cannot have supernatural Faith and cannot be saved.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #10 on: August 07, 2019, 02:15:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: homeschoolmom on August 07, 2019, 01:28:52 PM
    When it comes to good-willed people of invincible ignorance who lived lives of natural virtue, I was taught not that they are saved but that they go to limbo. And that it's rare. Where does this fit in the modernist vs Catholic spectrum?

    Limbo fits into the category: Consistent with Catholic dogma. (but limbo does not qualify as 'saved')

    Modernist Ratzinger "abolished" the limbo recently.



    Quote from: homeschoolmom on August 07, 2019, 01:28:52 PM
    And that it's rare.

    It is the case for unbaptized children who die below the age of reason. Whether it's rare for the unbaptized above the age of reason, or frequent, or does not happen at all is debatable.

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    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #11 on: August 07, 2019, 02:42:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 07, 2019, 01:53:16 PM
    My question is:

    If God damns a person who never had a chance to know the faith, in what way would he remain just (ie., such damnation would be an injustice, which would impute imperfection to god, which is impossible)?

    God arranges things in such a way that all those that are written in the book will know the faith and will be baptized.

    If someone dies unbaptized, then he would not have made it to heaven either with supernatural faith infused by baptism. And if he had gone to hell despite baptism, he would then dwell deeper in hell than without baptism.

    God is just and has ways to ensure that noone gets lost who shouldn't. And he even makes things easier for those in hell.
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    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #12 on: August 07, 2019, 03:00:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 07, 2019, 01:53:16 PM
    My question is:

    If God damns a person who never had a chance to know the faith, in what way would he remain just (ie., such damnation would be an injustice, which would impute imperfection to god, which is impossible)?
    There has never been such an adult person. Each and every one of us choose to either want to know the faith, in which case God will see to it that we get that chance, or each and every one of us choose to not want to know the faith.  

    "...The only reason that God does not succeed in getting others into the Church must be found in the reluctant will of those who do not enter it. If God can arrange for you to be in the Church, by the very same Providence He can arrange for anyone else who desires or is willing to enter it. There is absolutely no obstacle to the invincible God's achieving His designs, except the intractable wills of His children"... Fr. Wathen, Who Shall Ascend?



    "Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him:" Ecclesiasticus 15:18
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    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #13 on: August 07, 2019, 03:20:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on August 07, 2019, 03:00:25 PM
    There has never been such an adult person. Each and every one of us choose to either want to know the faith, in which case God will see to it that we get that chance, or each and every one of us choose to not want to know the faith.  

    "...The only reason that God does not succeed in getting others into the Church must be found in the reluctant will of those who do not enter it. If God can arrange for you to be in the Church, by the very same Providence He can arrange for anyone else who desires or is willing to enter it. There is absolutely no obstacle to the invincible God's achieving His designs, except the intractable wills of His children"... Fr. Wathen, Who Shall Ascend?



    "Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him:" Ecclesiasticus 15:18
    I agree that God can do whatever he wants.  God could, also, choose to give an infant conscious, intellectual belief in the essential dogmas as well.  

    I think we should always ground such arguments in whether or not God has revealed he never would do something, not in sentiment of "it would be unjust if he did this. 

    God could send an angel to such a virtuous pagan, if he wanted to.  And maybe he always does.  Maybe he often does, at the moment of death.  Do any of us know for sure?  I don't.

    All I know is that IF God saves someone, they'd *in some way* be inside the Church, because the Church clearly teaches that outside the Church there's no salvation.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #14 on: August 07, 2019, 03:39:15 PM »
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    All I know is that IF God saves someone, they'd *in some way* be inside the Church, because the Church clearly teaches that outside the Church there's no salvation.
    That "some way" is the sacrament of baptism, of water and the Holy Ghost.  We aren't allowed to invent any other way.  This is the issue.
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