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Author Topic: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans  (Read 6118 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2019, 03:53:20 PM »
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    God could send an angel to such a virtuous pagan, if he wanted to.  And maybe he always does.  Maybe he often does, at the moment of death.  Do any of us know for sure?  I don't.

    You are correct.  None of us knows.  The problem is, that if the virtuous pagan converts, he's no longer a virtuous pagan, but a catholic.  Therefore, it's wrong to say that virtuous pagans can be saved.  You can only say that FORMER virtuous pagans, who became catholics, can be saved. 


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #16 on: August 07, 2019, 04:10:30 PM »
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  • 1.  God wills that all are saved and "come to the knowledge of the Truth."
    2.  Salvation and heaven are a gift, not a right.
    3.  Infants who die or are aborted do not have the opportunity to hear the Gospel, yet they also would not suffer in hell, but would enjoy natural happiness in Limbo (which is part of hell).
    .
    I assume you are playing devil's advocate, but your question borders on blasphemy.  The overall answer is #2 above.  God knows all men's hearts and those whom He knows will not accept the Faith, He does not have to give them this chance.  Again, the Faith and heaven and salvation are a gift, not a right.  It is a mystery of salvation that God knows who will accept or reject the Faith from all eternity.
    Limbo is the border region of hell: Those who are consigned to it do not see the face of God (which is the primary punishment of the damned).
    They may be saved from the pain of sense (Aquinas v Augustine), but not from the loss of the beatific vision which they experienced at their particular judgment.
    A God who would do this would be unjust, which ought to show the Feeneyite error.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #17 on: August 07, 2019, 04:14:18 PM »
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  • God arranges things in such a way that all those that are written in the book will know the faith and will be baptized.

    If someone dies unbaptized, then he would not have made it to heaven either with supernatural faith infused by baptism. And if he had gone to hell despite baptism, he would then dwell deeper in hell than without baptism.

    God is just and has ways to ensure that noone gets lost who shouldn't. And he even makes things easier for those in hell.
    Nonsense: 
    Immediately upon Pentecost, membership in the Church (or being joined to it by grace) became mandatory for salvation.
    Yet 99% of the world, on the day after Pentecost, had never heard the Gospel.
    According to the Feeneyite, therefore, they were all damned, despite never having had a chance at salvation.
    If you will counter that God would have put those worthy of salvation in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost, I will say this is pius presumption without any magisterial backing (nor has any regarded theologian proposed such a solution).
    The plain fact is that the implicit baptism of desire you so abhor is the only way to avoid imputing injusticec to God (and the best proof of its orthodoxy and truth).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #18 on: August 07, 2019, 04:15:08 PM »
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  • There has never been such an adult person. Each and every one of us choose to either want to know the faith, in which case God will see to it that we get that chance, or each and every one of us choose to not want to know the faith.  

    "...The only reason that God does not succeed in getting others into the Church must be found in the reluctant will of those who do not enter it. If God can arrange for you to be in the Church, by the very same Providence He can arrange for anyone else who desires or is willing to enter it. There is absolutely no obstacle to the invincible God's achieving His designs, except the intractable wills of His children"... Fr. Wathen, Who Shall Ascend?



    "Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him:" Ecclesiasticus 15:18
    On the day of Pentecost, there were millions of such persons.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #19 on: August 07, 2019, 04:15:50 PM »
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  • That "some way" is the sacrament of baptism, of water and the Holy Ghost.  We aren't allowed to invent any other way.  This is the issue.
    Thank you for acknowledging the doctrine of explicit and implicit baptism of desire (which St. Alphonsus said is de fide)!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #20 on: August 07, 2019, 04:17:45 PM »
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  • Thank you for acknowledging the doctrine of explicit and implicit baptism of desire (which St. Alphonsus said is de fide)!
    Saints calling things de fide doesn't matter much to you when it comes to the infallibility of canonisations, but when it suits you you're sure to bring it up. 

    St. Alphonsus also never said implicit baptism of desire is de fide. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #21 on: August 07, 2019, 04:24:20 PM »
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    Thank you for acknowledging the doctrine of explicit and implicit baptism of desire (which St. Alphonsus said is de fide)!

    I said baptism of water and the Holy Ghost, the actual sacrament. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #22 on: August 07, 2019, 04:29:39 PM »
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    A God who would do this would be unjust, which ought to show the Feeneyite error.

    Where is it taught that God is bound in duty to give every man a chance at heaven?  In fact, the opposite is true, and is a doctrine of the Faith - that we are all judged guilty of Adam's sin and we all deserve hell.  The fact that God sent His Son to redeem us is a gift, and so is heaven.  None of us deserves forgiveness of sins, or a redeemer, or grace, much less heaven.  Your entitlement mentality towards heaven is blasphemous. 


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #23 on: August 07, 2019, 04:42:14 PM »
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  • Where is it taught that God is bound in duty to give every man a chance at heaven?  In fact, the opposite is true, and is a doctrine of the Faith - that we are all judged guilty of Adam's sin and we all deserve hell.  The fact that God sent His Son to redeem us is a gift, and so is heaven.  None of us deserves forgiveness of sins, or a redeemer, or grace, much less heaven.  Your entitlement mentality towards heaven is blasphemous.
    Here:

    "Just as it is God's true and sincere will that all men, no one excepted, shall obtain eternal happiness, so, too, Christ has died for all (Denz., n. 794), not only for the predestined (Denz., n. 1096), or for the faithful (Denz., n. 1294), though it is true that in reality not all avail themselves of the benefits of redemption (Denz., n. 795). Though God preordained both eternal happiness and the good works of the elect (Denz., n. 322), yet, on the other hand, He predestined no one positively to hell, much less to sin (Denz., nn. 200, 816). Consequently, just as no one is saved against his will (Denz., n. 1363), so the reprobate perish solely on account of their wickedness (Denz., nn. 318, 321). God foresaw the everlasting pains of the impious from all eternity, and preordained this punishment on account of their sins (Denz., n. 322), though He does not fail therefore to hold out the grace of conversion to sinners (Denz., n. 807), or pass over those who are not predestined (Denz., n. 827). As long as the reprobate live on earth, they may be accounted true Christians and members of the Church, just as on the other hand the predestined may be outside the pale of Christianity and of the Church (Denz., nn. 628, 631)."

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

    Consequently, the idea that some are predestined to hell ("negetive predestination") is heretical (which is also why the Feeneyite is heretical).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #24 on: August 07, 2019, 04:43:27 PM »
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  • On the day of Pentecost, there were millions of such persons.
    You asked: "If God damns a person who never had a chance to know the faith..." yet you cannot provide even a shred of proof that such a person exists, or ever has existed. Just as easily, but most likely (if you have the faith) true, I could say that "on the day of Pentecost", no one died until they chose to either want to know the faith, in which case God saw to it that they got that chance, or they chose to not want to know the faith. Those who wanted to know got baptized and professed the true faith before God took them, those who did not want to know died in their sin.    

    One would have to have no faith whatsoever in God and His Providence to believe such a person ever even existed, because if such a one ever did exist, that would mean God created that person for hell.

    This is not complicated - unless you have no faith.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #25 on: August 07, 2019, 04:44:40 PM »
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  • You asked: "If God damns a person who never had a chance to know the faith..." yet you cannot provide even a shred of proof that such a person exists, or ever has existed. Just as easily, but most likely (if you have the faith) true, I could say that "on the day of Pentecost", no one died until they chose to either want to know the faith, in which case God will see to it that they got that chance, or they chose to not want to know the faith. Those who wanted to know got baptized and professed the true faith before God took them, those who did not want to know died in their sin.    

    One would have to have no faith whatsoever in God and His Providence to believe such a person ever even existed, because if such a one ever did exist, that would mean God created that person for hell.

    This is not complicated - unless you have no faith.
    The premise implicit in your assertion is that on the day of Pentecost, every man in the whole world had heard the Gospel.

    I really have no proclivity to carry on with such persons.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #26 on: August 07, 2019, 05:09:49 PM »
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  • Saints calling things de fide doesn't matter much to you when it comes to the infallibility of canonisations, but when it suits you you're sure to bring it up.

    St. Alphonsus also never said implicit baptism of desire is de fide.

    Then I guess you will easily dismiss this:

    An Extract from St Alphonsus Liguori’s Moral Theology, Bk. 6, nn. 95-7
    Baptism, therefore, coming from a Greek word that means ablution or immersion in water, is distinguished into Baptism of water [“fluminis”], of desire [“flaminis” = wind] and of blood.
    We shall speak below of Baptism of water, which was very probably instituted before the Passion of Christ the Lord, when Christ was baptised by John. But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called “of wind” [“flaminis”] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind [“flamen”]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, “de presbytero non baptizato” and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”


    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #27 on: August 07, 2019, 05:13:47 PM »
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  • The premise implicit in your assertion is that on the day of Pentecost, every man in the whole world had heard the Gospel.

    I really have no proclivity to carry on with such persons.
    The premise explicit in your assertion is that God created some souls for hell - but thankfully, not you. That God could reach you, but He could not reach certain people in time before they died.  :facepalm:

    I agree, you have no proclivity, nor faith in God apparently.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #28 on: August 07, 2019, 05:14:34 PM »
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  • The premise explicit in your assertion is that God created some souls for hell - but thankfully, not you. That God could reach you, but He could not reach certain people in time before they died.  :facepalm:

    I agree, you have no proclivity, nor faith in God apparently.  
    ::)
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: CONDEMNED: Salvation for good-willed, ignorant pagans
    « Reply #29 on: August 07, 2019, 05:17:26 PM »
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  • Then I guess you will easily dismiss this:

    An Extract from St Alphonsus Liguori’s Moral Theology, Bk. 6, nn. 95-7
    Baptism, therefore, coming from a Greek word that means ablution or immersion in water, is distinguished into Baptism of water [“fluminis”], of desire [“flaminis” = wind] and of blood.
    We shall speak below of Baptism of water, which was very probably instituted before the Passion of Christ the Lord, when Christ was baptised by John. But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called “of wind” [“flaminis”] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind [“flamen”]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, “de presbytero non baptizato” and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”
    I guess you will easily dismiss this:

    St. Alphonsus

    The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary, inasmuch as they hold that man is justified by faith alone, and that the sacraments only serve to excite and nourish this faith, which (as they say) can be equally excited and nourished by preaching.  But this is certainly false, and is condemned in the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth canons:  for as we know from the Scriptures, some of the sacraments are necessary (necessitate Medii) as a means without which salvation is impossible. Thus Baptism is necessary for all, Penance for them who have fallen into sin after Baptism, and the Eucharist is necessary for all at least in desire. - St. Alphonsus

    From:  (An Exposition and Defence of All the Points of Faith Discussed and Defined by the Sacred Council of Trent, Along With the Refutation of the Errors of the Pretended Reformers, Saint Alphonsus Liguori, Dublin, 1846.)
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse