It also makes sense because Christ says "You must be born of water and the Spirit" but then IN ANOTHER PLACE only mentions the Spirit.  This is scriptural proof of baptism of desire.

You're breaking from the Magisterium.  St. John 3:5 has been infallibly interpreted by the Magisterium several times.  St. John 3:7, on the other hand, ZERO.

I will now do the same for perfect contrition, which you believe in and in fact are counting on, as am I.

Council of Trent:

Quote

"As a means of regaining grace and justice, penance was at all times necessary for those who had defiled their souls with any mortal sin."

Do you see, Catholic Martyr?  Penance is NECESSARY.  The Council of Trent said so!  No perfect contrition!

Once again, the Popes stress the necessity of baptism, but by doing so they do not deny baptism of desire.  Nor do they deny perfect contrition when they stress the necessity of penance.

This analogy does not work, for a few reasons.  It has never been dogmatically defined that your confession must be to a priest who is right next to you, or even in the same plane.

It is quite possible that a soul may be absolved of sin by making a confession to, let's say St. Paul, or the Curé d'Ars, or to any other confessor in the Heavenly Host.

If you have some Scripture, Tradition, or Magisterial teaching that can prove to me that there is no way for this to be a valid sacramental confession, then please present it so I may not be heretical, but I have looked into the matter and I believe it is a sound position.

Which is why I regularly read Scripture, the works of Saints and examine my conscience, confess to the confessors in the Heavenly Host and do what meager penance and mortification I can bare (hopefully I will continuously improve in the regard).

So if you can prove to me that I do not meet the necessity of penance, by doing this, you might have a point.  Otherwise, I am not "counting on" perfect contrition at all, though yes I do believe in it, and yes I still beg for it.  But I do not at this point believe it is my only way of being saved.

Besides, you know very well that Catholic theology has placed a distinction on the sacraments' necessity, namely necessity of precept for Penance and the Most Holy Eucharist, and necessity of means for Holy Baptism.  If I am wrong about the above, then I would indeed be counting on perfect contrition (which is one of the reasons I beg for it every day).  

Go look up necessity of means, and then explain to me how it is not a contradiction to believe in baptism of desire AND believe that the sacrament of baptism is necessary by a necessity of means.

See if you can do it without changing the definition of necessity of means.

You're breaking from the Magisterium.  St. John 3:5 has been infallibly interpreted by the Magisterium several times.  St. John 3:7, on the other hand, ZERO.

Excuse me.  St. John 3:8.

Will you respond?

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A person has to admit that this tradition would either be harmful to these souls, or baptism of desire is not true.
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So either the Catholic Church had propagated and held a universal discipline for 1800+ years which was detrimental to the souls in purgatory

Only if you think Purgatory is harmful, and that God is unjust.

Quote from: Raoul76

The Church cannot prescribe harmful doctrine and not to hold requiem masses or chanting or sacrifices for someone who died before baptism is indeed harmful, if that soul is in purgatory...  

Harmful to souls in Purgatory? No, that's impossible. It is an act of charity, and salutary, to pray and offer sacrifices for souls there to get them out quicker, but it would not do them any harm for them to stay there for as long as they would have to without our prayers and sacrifices, would it? Purgatory is no picnic, but it is not harmful. On the contrary.

Oh Clare, have you been reading your catechism again? Don't you know those catechisms contain errors and heresies?

Why can't you just figure this out on your own? :)

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: clare

Quote from: Raoul76

The Church cannot prescribe harmful doctrine and not to hold requiem masses or chanting or sacrifices for someone who died before baptism is indeed harmful, if that soul is in purgatory...  

Harmful to souls in Purgatory? No, that's impossible. It is an act of charity, and salutary, to pray and offer sacrifices for souls there to get them out quicker, but it would not do them any harm for them to stay there for as long as they would have to without our prayers and sacrifices, would it? Purgatory is no picnic, but it is not harmful. On the contrary.

Oh Clare, have you been reading your catechism again? Don't you know those catechisms contain errors and heresies?

Why can't you just figure this out on your own? :)

If that wasn't the case, why, then, were they revised over time?  (Oh, I am talking with SJB again, a woman with the middle name of "John".)

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Except you're a really bad imitator. :)

Revised when? Be specific.

Quote from: clare

Harmful to souls in Purgatory? No, that's impossible. It is an act of charity, and salutary, to pray and offer sacrifices for souls there to get them out quicker, but it would not do them any harm for them to stay there for as long as they would have to without our prayers and sacrifices, would it? Purgatory is no picnic, but it is not harmful. On the contrary.

Other than the fact that the individuals there are suffering.  However, unlike the damned, their time will come.  I hope to go to Purgatory someday -- it's the best that I can do.

The souls in Purgatory are suffering intensely, but they are not harmed.

Oh Clare, have you been reading your catechism again? Don't you know those catechisms contain errors and heresies?

Why can't you just figure this out on your own? :)

:D Actually, to be honest, I didn't read it in the catechism, it's just common sense.

Who ever heard of Purgatory doing anyone any harm???

There's a difference between hurting and harming.

(But I know you're not arguing with me anyway!)