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Author Topic: CM makes good point against BoD!!!  (Read 5150 times)

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Offline SJB

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CM makes good point against BoD!!!
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2009, 12:45:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: clare
    Quote from: SJB
    Oh Clare, have you been reading your catechism again? Don't you know those catechisms contain errors and heresies?

    Why can't you just figure this out on your own? :)


    :D Actually, to be honest, I didn't read it in the catechism, it's just common sense.

    Who ever heard of Purgatory doing anyone any harm???

    There's a difference between hurting and harming.

    (But I know you're not arguing with me anyway!)


    Of course, but you properly understood Purgatory...which comes from knowing your catechism. :)
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline Belloc

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    CM makes good point against BoD!!!
    « Reply #16 on: October 06, 2009, 01:00:10 PM »
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  • Among them is also the fire of purgatory, in which the souls of just men are cleansed by a temporary punishment, in order to be admitted into their eternal country, into which nothing defiled entereth. The truth of this doctrine, founded, as holy Councils declare,' on Scripture, and confirmed by Apostolic tradition, demands exposition from the pastor, all the more diligent and frequent, because we live in times when men endure not sound doctrine.

    Lastly, the third kind of abode is that into which the souls of the just before the coming of Christ the Lord, were received, and where, without experiencing any sort of pain, but supported by the blessed hope of redemption, they enjoyed peaceful repose. To liberate these holy souls, who, in the bosom of Abraham were expecting the Saviour, Christ the Lord descended into hell.

    SOURCE: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/ApostlesCreed05.shtml

    Decree Concerning Purgatory
    Since the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, following the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught in sacred councils and very recently in this ecuмenical council that there is a purgatory,[1] and that the souls there detained are aided by the suffrages of the faithful and chiefly by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar, the holy council commands the bishops that they strive diligently to the end that the sound doctrine of purgatory, transmitted by the Fathers and sacred councils,[2] be believed and maintained by the faithful of Christ, and be everywhere taught and preached. The more difficult and subtle questions, however, and those that do not make for edification and from which there is for the most part no increase in piety, are to be excluded from popular instructions to uneducated people.[3] Likewise, things that are uncertain or that have the appearance of falsehood they shall not permit to be made known publicly and discussed. But those things that tend to a certain kind of curiosity or superstition, or that savor of filthy lucre, they shall prohibit as scandals and stumbling-blocks to the faithful. The bishops shall see to it that the suffrages of the living, that is, the sacrifice of the mass,[4] prayers, alms and other works of piety which they have been accustomed to perform for the faithful departed, be piously and devoutly discharged in accordance with the laws of the Church, and that whatever is due on their behalf from testamentary bequests or other ways, be discharged by the priests and ministers of the Church and others who are bound to render this service not in a perfunctory manner, but diligently and accurately.

    SOURCE:  http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TRENT25.HTM#1

    693 [ De novissimis] * It has likewise defined, that, if those truly penitent have departed in the love of God, before they have made satisfaction by the worthy fruits of penance for sins of commission and omission, the souls of these are cleansed after death by purgatorial punishments; and so that they may be released from punishments of this kind, the suffrages of the living faithful are of advantage to them, namely, the sacrifices of Masses, prayers, and almsgiving, and other works of piety, which are customarily performed by the faithful for other faithful according to the institutions of the Church. And that the souls of those, who after the reception of baptism have incurred no stain of sin at all, and also those, who after the contraction of the stain of sin whether in their bodies, or when released from the same bodies, as we have said before, are purged, are immediately received into heaven, and see clearly the one and triune God Himself just as He is, yet according to the diversity of merits, one more perfectly than another. Moreover, the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds [see n.464].


    SOURCE: http://www.catecheticsonline.com/SourcesofDogma7.php

    also   http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic


    Offline clare

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    CM makes good point against BoD!!!
    « Reply #17 on: October 06, 2009, 01:12:38 PM »
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  • Yes, Belloc.

    So are we agreed that Purgatory, while it hurts a great deal, does not actually harm the souls there?

    And that, while it is a great shame that any unbaptised occupants have been denied the benefit of our Masses and sacrifices, that it does not actually do them any harm to serve the maximum sentence?

    We all probably deserve worse than we get anyway.

    Offline Jehanne

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    CM makes good point against BoD!!!
    « Reply #18 on: October 06, 2009, 02:02:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    You are a man who doesn't know his basic catechism on the sacraments. You should have nothing further to say...why don't you spend some time reading instead. Learn, then speak with humility.


    I am not sure what benefit that would bring to me.  I would be forced to conclude, as have many secular scholars, that the Catholic Church, and, hence, God (at least in my case but not theirs), speaks with a "forked tongue," something that I do not believe.  My theology is not based upon some catechism but upon my own historical analysis, that is, what did the earliest Christians believe.  The scholastic theologians of the Middle Ages based their theology upon the same sources that I do -- Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the writings of the Nicene and pre-Nicene Fathers.  The Commonitory of Vincent of Lérins seems an immemorial principle to me.

    Offline clare

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    CM makes good point against BoD!!!
    « Reply #19 on: October 06, 2009, 02:12:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    I am not sure what benefit that would bring to me.  I would be forced to conclude, as have many secular scholars, that the Catholic Church, and, hence, God (at least in my case but not theirs), speaks with a "forked tongue," something that I do not believe. ...


    So, secular scholars don't understand Church teaching. Why follow their lead?


    Offline SJB

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    CM makes good point against BoD!!!
    « Reply #20 on: October 06, 2009, 02:16:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: SJB
    You are a man who doesn't know his basic catechism on the sacraments. You should have nothing further to say...why don't you spend some time reading instead. Learn, then speak with humility.


    I am not sure what benefit that would bring to me.  I would be forced to conclude, as have many secular scholars, that the Catholic Church, and, hence, God (at least in my case but not theirs), speaks with a "forked tongue," something that I do not believe.  My theology is not based upon some catechism but upon my own historical analysis, that is, what did the earliest Christians believe.  The scholastic theologians of the Middle Ages based their theology upon the same sources that I do -- Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the writings of the Nicene and pre-Nicene Fathers.  The Commonitory of Vincent of Lérins seems an immemorial principle to me.


    Except you're not a scholastic theologian. Are you aware of that?

    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Belloc

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    CM makes good point against BoD!!!
    « Reply #21 on: October 06, 2009, 02:20:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    My theology is not based upon some catechism but upon my own historical analysis, that is, what did the earliest Christians believe.  The scholastic theologians of the Middle Ages based their theology upon the same sources that I do -- Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the writings of the Nicene and pre-Nicene Fathers.  The Commonitory of Vincent of Lérins seems an immemorial principle to me.


    um..dont those compiling catechisms do the same thing, drawing from Papal docuмents, saints, Doctors,scripture, Fathers,etc......?

    will try to track it down, but there is a scripture quote that goes something like "cease from thine own wisdom"
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline CM

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    CM makes good point against BoD!!!
    « Reply #22 on: October 06, 2009, 02:23:00 PM »
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  • Good points Clare.  I will be removing this argument from my BoD article.


    Offline Belloc

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    CM makes good point against BoD!!!
    « Reply #23 on: October 06, 2009, 02:23:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: clare
    Yes, Belloc.

    So are we agreed that Purgatory, while it hurts a great deal, does not actually harm the souls there?

    And that, while it is a great shame that any unbaptised occupants have been denied the benefit of our Masses and sacrifices, that it does not actually do them any harm to serve the maximum sentence?

    We all probably deserve worse than we get anyway.


    souls there are in God's care,since they have no bodies, not like you can get a literal 3rd degree burn..or damage to tissues,etc....also, teh soul is immortal.which is part of the horror of Hell..in this life, burn up in a fire, it is painful, but it will last only a short time (assuming death and not a long time in hospital)....the pain is real in feeling, but also interiorly (supposedly, the warning of Chastisement is a mini-judgment and like this)
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Jehanne

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    CM makes good point against BoD!!!
    « Reply #24 on: October 06, 2009, 04:13:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Except you're not a scholastic theologian. Are you aware of that?


    Yes.  As I stated before, most of the Church's theologians of today support gαy sex, so what's your point?

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    CM makes good point against BoD!!!
    « Reply #25 on: October 06, 2009, 08:39:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: Catholic Martyr
    But I have a few questions for you also:

    1) Does baptism of desire according to you imprint the soul with the baptismal character?

    2) Does it carry all of the effects of baptism, every single one?

    3) Does God baptize the soul Himself, or does he send an angel, a saved priest, or a just priest whose soul is still in the body?

    4) Does God (or the minister delegated to this task) use pure and natural water to baptize the person and do so in the form of the Church?

    5) If there are people around, would they see this taking place, or is it invisible, as Augustine once said?


    BOB/D does not imprint an indeleble mark on the soul though it does remove Original Sin.  BOB also removes temporal punishment due to previous sins.

    God, "baptizes" cleanses the soul of Original Sin at death in BOB/D.

    BOB/D does not make one worth to receive the other Sacraments as only water baptism makes this possible.  But one cannot receive the Sacraments in Purgatory or Heaven.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Jehanne

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    « Reply #26 on: October 06, 2009, 09:31:50 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    BOB/D does not imprint an indeleble mark on the soul though it does remove Original Sin.  BOB also removes temporal punishment due to previous sins.

    God, "baptizes" cleanses the soul of Original Sin at death in BOB/D.

    BOB/D does not make one worth to receive the other Sacraments as only water baptism makes this possible.  But one cannot receive the Sacraments in Purgatory or Heaven.


    This is salutary repentance, which I find to be completely orthodox.  Basically, the non-Catholic would, at the moment of death, receive the graces of the One and Triune God to die as a Catholic.  As I mentioned before, this is why heretics were burned alive in the Middle Ages, instead of being hung, beheaded, etc.  Being a relapsed heretic "abandoned" to secular justice, it was universally believed that the individual was "outside of the Church"; hence, outside of Christ's Mystical Body (the Church) and was destined for Hell.  However, in being burned alive it was believed by some theologians that the heretic could receive the graces of God, make perfect contrition of his/her sins, and pass into Purgatory instead of Hell.

    In short, I see no reason that what was possible for condemned heretics would not also be possible for Jєωs, pagans, Muslims, Buddhists, Protestants, schismatics, Norvus Ordo heretics, SSPX heretics, etc.  If God can perform an act for one individual, then He could do the same act for many.

    This is not universalism, which has been, of course, condemned by the Church.  Some people will not make it to Heaven, perhaps most, perhaps only a few will not make it.  Difficult to know for sure.  In any case, I think that this is why the Florentine Fathers added the clause "before the end of their lives," knowing, of course, that such repentance at death was possible, but not necessarily probable.

    As one priest (having since died) told me, Purgatory is going to be a giant RCIA program for people.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #27 on: October 06, 2009, 09:40:46 PM »
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  • Of course people in those sects you named would not be saved because of their religion or by it but due to their sincerity of heart.

    Those who admit the BOB/D doctrine can also admit those saved by the other forms of the one Baptism are few.  How many are inculpable i.e. don't know and cannot reasonably be expected to know that the Catholic Church is the One True Faith.

    Of course with the ape v2 Church posing as that Church it could become confusing for those sincerely looking for the truth.  

    We MUST leave it in God's hands, Catholic Martyr.

    No obstinate wrangling or impious inquiry as to the subjective guild of another.

    We must bow to the mystery.  Shh.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline CM

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    « Reply #28 on: October 06, 2009, 09:53:08 PM »
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  • I'm waiting for Michael.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #29 on: October 06, 2009, 09:55:17 PM »
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  • Whose MIchael.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church