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Author Topic: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences  (Read 58664 times)

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Offline WorldsAway

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Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
« Reply #105 on: December 19, 2025, 04:16:33 AM »
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  • Please take a look a the revised Monograph. I think it might clarify some things.

    Zoe, Soteria, and the Inviolable Necessity of the Church
    A Re-examination of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus in Light of the Magisterium of Pius IX

    I. Formal Abstract
    Scope: Speculative Dogmatic Theology / Ecclesiology

    This monograph provides a rigorous scholastic reconciliation of the dogma Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus with the Magisterium of Pope Pius IX regarding the Invincibly Ignorant. By recovering the linguistic and metaphysical distinction between Zoe (the internal state of justification/life) and Soteria (the juridical rescue and immediate entry into the Beatific Vision), the thesis identifies the Baptismal Character as the objective "Key" to the Light of Glory.

    The work rejects the "Miracle Fallacy"—the necessity of a private revelation at death—proposing instead that the Invincibly Ignorant attain Zoe through an act of perfect charity fueled by "Divine Light," which includes an implicit votum (desire) for the Sacraments. However, lacking the objective Character, these souls incur a "Debt of Nature" and enter a New Covenant Limbo of the Just upon death, analogous to the Limbus Patrum. The final resolution is found eschatologically: at the General Resurrection, Christ the High Priest applies the "Laver of Regeneration" to all possessing Zoe, satisfying the debt and granting Soteria.

    II. Introduction: The Standard of the "Upright Life"

    According to the Magisterium of Pope Pius IX (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore), the Invincibly Ignorant may attain Eternal Life (Zoe) by "observing the precepts of the Natural Law" and living an "upright life." This thesis posits that this "upright life" is not a vague sincerity, but a rigorous adherence to the Primary Precepts of the Natural Law—those moral absolutes knowable by reason and essential for justice and the social order.

    To maintain the state of grace (Zoe), the Invincibly Ignorant must remain free from Mortal Sins against the Natural Law, which include:

    • Against God: Culpable Idolatry, Blasphemy, and the willful failure to seek the Truth.
    • Against Life: Murder (The Blood of Abel), grave assault, and the oppression of the vulnerable (Widows and Orphans).
    • Against Justice: Grave theft, defrauding the laborer of wages (Cry of the Oppressed), and malicious destruction of reputation (Calumny).
    • Against Nature: Adultery (violating the justice of the bond), Sodomy, and the intentional frustration of the procreative end of the sɛҳuąƖ act.

    While the Invincibly Ignorant are not bound by the Positive Laws of the Church (e.g., Mass attendance), the difficulty of maintaining this purity without sacramental medicine underscores the immense peril of being outside the Ark of the Church.

    III. Prefatory Definitions: The Grammar of Eternity

    TermLatin EquivalentDefinition and Theological Function
    Zoe (Eternal Life)Aeternam VitamThe Interior State of Grace (Spiritual Vitality). Accessible via "Divine Light." It secures the soul against Hell.
    Soteria (Salvation)SalvariThe Juridical Status of being "Rescued," clothed in the Baptismal Character, and granted immediate access to the Beatific Vision (BV).
    The Debt of NaturePoena DamniThe remaining spiritual deficit (lack of the Baptismal Character) after justification. Distinct from the guilt of sin.
    Invincibly IgnorantN/APersons who, through no fault of their own, adhere to the Natural Law and cooperate with sufficient grace.

    IV. Part I: The "Pius IX Paradox" and the Miracle Fallacy

    The core conflict arises from holding two absolute truths: the necessity of the visible Church (EENS) and the justice of God.

    • The Exclusion: "Out of the Apostolic Roman Church no person can be saved [salvari]..." (Singulari Quadam)
    • The Exception: "Able to attain eternal life [aeternam vitam] by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace." (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore)

    Rejecting the "Miracle Fallacy": Standard neo-scholastic theology often claims God sends an angel to baptize the Invincibly Ignorant at death. We reject this because it renders the Pope's statement redundant. The Pope's words only have force if we affirm that sufficient grace operates within the state of ignorance.

    V. Part II: The Sacramental Economy and the Bar to Soteria

    1. Justification vs. Purification: The Distinction of Debt

    • Guilt Removed (Zoe Achieved): "Divine Light" facilitates an Act of Perfect Charity. In accordance with the Council of Trent, this act necessarily includes a subjective implicit desire (votum) to fulfill all that God requires. This removes the enmity with God.
    • Debt Remains (Soteria Bar): The debt—the lack of the Baptismal Character—remains. This Character is the objective "Key" to the immediate Beatific Vision.

    2. The Mechanism of Delay: Actual vs. Sanctifying Grace

    The delay of the Beatific Vision is rooted in the nature of the grace received:

    • Actual Grace: Facilitates the movement toward justification and the removal of the guilt of sin via the votum.
    • Sanctifying Grace (The Habit): In the ordinary economy, the permanent "habit" and the Baptismal Character are the prerequisites for the Lumen Gloriae. Without the objective "Seal," the soul has the life of God but lacks the formal capacity for the Vision.

    3. The New Covenant "Limbus Patrum"

    EntityState of Grace (Guilt)Impediment (Debt)Intermediate Destination
    OT FathersPossessed Grace (Zoe).Lacked the Cross.Limbus Patrum
    The Just NationsPossess Grace (Zoe).Lacks the Character.Limbo of the Just

    VI. Part III: The Natural Law Standard

    The Invincibly Ignorant are judged by the Primary Precepts (justice/essential order) of the Natural Law. They are not culpable for imperfections regarding Secondary Precepts which were historically conceded by God prior to Christ's restoration.

    • Worship: Mortal Sin = Culpable Idolatry / Blasphemy.
    • Marriage: Mortal Sin = Adultery (Injustice to bond).
    • Purity: Mortal Sin = Sodomy / Coitus Interruptus.
    • Justice: Mortal Sin = Murder / Grave Theft / Calumny.

    VII. Part IV: Formal Scholastic Syllogisms

    1. The Distinction of Justification

    • Major Premise: All those who possess the internal state of Grace (Zoe) are justified and protected from the pains of Hell.
    • Minor Premise: Pope Pius IX teaches that the Invincibly Ignorant can attain Eternal Life (Zoe) through the "Divine Light" and an upright life.
    • Conclusion: Therefore, the Invincibly Ignorant can be justified and protected from the pains of Hell without being formal members of the Church.

    2. The Objective Requirement of the Character

    • Major Premise: No soul can enter the immediate Beatific Vision (Soteria) without the objective "Key" of the Baptismal Character.
    • Minor Premise: The Invincibly Ignorant, while possessing the subjective desire (votum), do not possess the objective Baptismal Character in this life.
    • Conclusion: Therefore, the Invincibly Ignorant are barred from immediate entry into the Beatific Vision upon death.

    VIII. Part V: Responses to Objections and the Doctrine of Immense Peril

    Objection: Does this model encourage religious indifferentism?

    Response: This model actually increases the urgency of missions. By defining the "Upright Life" through the rigorous standard of the Primary Precepts of the Natural Law, we reveal that the Invincibly Ignorant are in "immense peril."

    1. The Darkness of the Intellect
    While the Primary Precepts of the Natural Law are knowable by reason, the human intellect is darkened by Original Sin. Without the "Light of Revelation" to clarify moral truths, the Invincibly Ignorant are easily deceived by cultural depravity and sophisticated rationalizations for intrinsic evils. Reason alone is often insufficient to penetrate the fog of a fallen world.

    2. The Weakness of the Will (Concupiscence)
    Knowledge of the Law does not grant the power to keep it. The Invincibly Ignorant man suffers from disordered passions (concupiscence) but lacks the "Medicinal Grace" provided by the Sacraments. Without the Eucharist to strengthen the will and Confession to restore the soul after a fall, the man is essentially attempting to climb a vertical cliff-face with broken hands. One single unrepented mortal sin forfeits Zoe.

    3. The Statistical Improbability of Perseverance
    To die in a state of Zoe outside the Church, a man must successfully navigate a lifetime of temptations while relying solely on "Actual Grace" and "Natural Reason." In the Catholic economy, the "Character" of Baptism and the Sacraments provide an "Ark." The Invincibly Ignorant is "treading water" in a storm. While theoretically possible to survive, it is statistically certain that most will succuмb to the exhaustion of sin.

    Objection: Does this contradict the Council of Florence?

    Response: Our model distinguishes between Salvation (Soteria) as immediate entry and Life (Zoe) as the state of grace. We affirm that Soteria remains exclusive to the Church’s economy. The Invincibly Ignorant who die in grace are held in a provisional state until they are formally integrated into the Body of Christ at the General Resurrection.

    IX. Conclusion: The Final Triumph of the High Priest

    The "Debt of Nature" is not a permanent condemnation but a provisional deprivation. At the General Resurrection, Christ makes "all things new" (Apocalypse 21:5). This universal redemptive act serves as the final, absolute application of the Laver of Regeneration to all who possess Zoe. In that moment, the lack of a temporal Sacramental Character is satisfied by the direct action of the glorified Christ.

    The Invincibly Ignorant, having been preserved in a state of natural peace (Limbo of the Just), are then fully integrated into the New Heaven and New Earth. They finally attain Soteria, entering the Beatific Vision through the final triumph of Christ over the prior epoch (saeculum) of death.

    X. Syllabus of Authorities

    Magisterial Docuмents

    • Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quadam (1854): Dogmatic necessity of the Church.
    • Pope Pius IX, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore (1863): On Eternal Life for the ignorant.
    • Council of Florence, Cantate Domino (1441): Necessity of union with the Church.
    • Council of Trent, Decree on Justification (Session VI): Necessity of the votum.

    Scholastic & Scriptural Sources

    • St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae (I-II, Q. 94): Natural Law framework.
    • Sacramental Ontology: The theology of the Indelible Character.
    • Apocalypse 21:5: The promise of Christ to "make all things new."
    Yeah I mean as long as the infants/invincibly ignorant have Original Sin remitted by the laver of regeneration prior to NHNE. I can see how that might work..but I do think it's quite the novel theory :incense:
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #106 on: December 19, 2025, 04:43:11 AM »
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  • No, the divine Church, by putting that in law, CANNOT be accused of calling into doubt a previously defined solemn dogma.

    This law is necessarily conveying that a person who is not baptized with water CAN go to heaven.

    From Bread of Life:

    Baptism is necessary for salvation by a necessity of means. This necessity is imposed on all men, including infants. 

    Baptism is necessary for salvation by a necessity of both means and precept for adults, who are not yet baptized.

    Unbaptized infants who die go to Limbo. Notice, they do not go to Hell. Also notice, they do not go to Heaven. 

    Unbaptized adults who die go to Hell. Notice they do not go either to Limbo or to Heaven.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #107 on: December 19, 2025, 04:45:57 AM »
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  • Tell me what St. Alphonsus taught (with a quote) that I do not accept.
    "The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary, inasmuch as they hold that man is justified by faith alone, and that the sacraments only serve to excite and nourish this faith, which (as they say) can be equally excited and nourished by preaching.  But this is certainly false, and is condemned in the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth canons:  for as we know from the Scriptures, some of the sacraments are necessary (necessitate Medii) as a means without which salvation is impossible. Thus Baptism is necessary for all, Penance for them who have fallen into sin after Baptism, and the Eucharist is necessary for all at least in desire ( in voto)."

    From:  (An Exposition and Defense of All the Points of Faith Discussed and Defined by the Sacred Council of Trent, Along With the Refutation of the Errors of the Pretended Reformers, Saint Alphonsus Liguori, Dublin, 1846.)
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Freind

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #108 on: December 19, 2025, 06:12:30 AM »
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  • "The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary, inasmuch as they hold that man is justified by faith alone, and that the sacraments only serve to excite and nourish this faith, which (as they say) can be equally excited and nourished by preaching.  But this is certainly false, and is condemned in the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth canons:  for as we know from the Scriptures, some of the sacraments are necessary (necessitate Medii) as a means without which salvation is impossible. Thus Baptism is necessary for all, Penance for them who have fallen into sin after Baptism, and the Eucharist is necessary for all at least in desire ( in voto)."

    From:  (An Exposition and Defense of All the Points of Faith Discussed and Defined by the Sacred Council of Trent, Along With the Refutation of the Errors of the Pretended Reformers, Saint Alphonsus Liguori, Dublin, 1846.)

    I accept it all.
    You reject the "in voto".

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #109 on: December 19, 2025, 06:28:15 AM »
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  • I accept it all.
    You reject the "in voto".

    Again, it entirely depends on what Trent actually taught. Believing that Trent taught that the laver and desire are both necessary is a perfectly valid belief considering Pope St Leo the Great's "Tome" professed at the Council of Chalcedon (posted above)
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #110 on: December 19, 2025, 06:39:32 AM »
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  • I accept it all.
    You reject the "in voto".

    No, I do not reject Spiritual Communion, "and the Eucharist is necessary for all at least in desire ( in voto)."

    If you believe in a BOD, then you reject him saying: "The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary..."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #111 on: December 19, 2025, 06:45:03 AM »
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  • Sortof, I think.  Father Feeney, when asked, said "I don't know.  Neither do you."  I'll agree with that, but am speculating.

    I think there's not only a "Limbo" of perfect natural happiness, where there are infants, but there's something of a continuum in this entire Limbo-like border region, with varying degrees of happiness vs. unhappiness depending on how you lived your life.  Even the EENS definitions say that there are greatly different degrees of suffering.

    Unbaptized Martys end up perfectly happy, and likely enjoy even a greater happiness than the infants who die without baptism.

    I believe that the greatest motivation for wanting to reject EENS dogma is that some Jєωιѕн or Lutheran grandmother who lived a virtuous life, kept natural law, possibly even made a heroic sacrifice by giving her life for her children, that she ends up in the same monolithic cauldron of fire as Satanists, serial killers, blasphemers, etc.

    Most people have that binary idea, where it's either unbridled joy in Heaven or eternal tortures in Hell.

    This is where the distinction between natural reward / punishment /justice and the unmerited supernatural gift of the Beatific Vision, the distinction that St. Thomas first articulated eloquently comes into play, and not just for infants who die unbaptized.  No, as Pius IX teaches, those who haven't committed actual sins do not receive eternal punishmetns for those.

    So, just as everyone says that there are degress of happiness and glory in Heaven, and then degrees of suffering in Hell, why wouldn't there also bed degrees of natural happiness in Limbo, from perfect happiness, to more happiness than sorrow, to the opposite, etc.  I think it's a sliding scale of happiness and unhappiness, and not just two monolithic places:  Heaven or Hell.  Either you're a saint next to the Cherubim or playing checkers with Joe Stalin and Judas Iscariot.

    Then, because of this binary construct people tend to have in their brains, they reject EENS, since that Lutheran grandmother I mentioned before ... she doesn't really deserve to be cruelly tortured fo eternity just because she grew up in Lutheranism, so then they try to get her into Heaven somehow, to prevent that consequence of EENS dogma.

    But if you realized that Heaven is an unmerited free gift that nobody deserves, and that our nature cannot even imagine what it's like since it's so beyond us ... then there's no punishment in not receiving the Beatific Vision.

    St. Gregorn nαzιanzen, in rejecting BoD, said that there are some who are not good enough to be glorified but not bad enough to be punished.  Somewhere between the punishment (of Hell) and the glory (of Heaven and the Beatific Vision, there's another Limbic type of realm, where unbaptized infants go, but quite possbily others.  St. Ambrosed said that martyrs are "washed but not crowned".  That's clearly a reference to having their sins washed (at least in terms of their punishment), but not entering the supernatural Kingdom, with the Crown, and the Beatific Vision.

    From St. Augustine and for about 7-8 centuries it was ... there's either the glory of Heaven, Beatific Vision, etc. ... or else the fires of Hell.  Eastern Fathers were a little more mysical or enigmatic about some speculative other place, such as St. Gregory's statement above.  Even Our Lord said that those who believe and are baptized will be saved.  But those who do not believe will be condemned.  That leaves a logical middle area, where you believe (and so are not in the condemned group), but are not saved (are not baptized).  So if not saved and not condemned ... where do you go?
    I could be wrong, but I suspect part of the issue (along with people just being annoying and stubborn about their preconceived notions) is that you are a theologian so you're using terms the way theologians use them, and a lot of people aren't.

    I don't know if most people assume "kind Jєωιѕн grandmother" is being threatened with the *same* cauldron as Stalin, but I do think most people are assuming Hell is gonna be unbearably horrible for everyone even if its more unbearably horrible for some people than for others.  Like maybe Stalin's fire is ten million degrees and the fire of the "kind Jєωιѕн grandmother" is one million degrees... its still an unbearably horrible fate nobody would wish on their worst enemy.  And nobody wants to think (I know "nobody wants to think" isn't really an argument but... sometimes it becomes one even if it shouldn't be) their generally good relatives who don't have the faith are going to experience that kind of torment.  

    Whereas honestly, what you're describing that people outside the church/not baptized could get... actually seems rather like what a lot of Protestants think of as salvation.  There is no longer suffering or death, and you get to reunite with your loved ones, presumably people in Limbo aren't deprived of the ability to pray or to praise God in some sense (I mean, I'm filling in the gaps here, you get my point).... they just don't get the Beatific vision.


    If this is the idea I almost think it could be reformulated as "the highest level of salvation is not found outside the church"... but I understand why the church wouldn't want to do that.  But I think most people would understand what you are getting at earlier.

    When I was Catholic, my motivation was less these kinds of emotional concerns.  It was more so "How could Archbishop Lefebvre and all the trad clergy just be completely wrong about this?  They must be onto something that I'm not."  I get that this was sometimes maybe annoying in our arguments about this, but that was ultimately what it came down to for me.  I was not going to conclude that all the trad clergy are wrong and some people online are correct.  That just "seemed" off.

    Of course we have the same dynamic in Orthodoxy, and its a bit more emotional for me now now that I (in the past two months) lost my grandfather, who was baptized Protestant.  He and I were  very close and I cannot bear the thought that I would never see him again.  His death was also peaceful (I was in the room) so that's something I have to take into account, although I continue to pray for him daily and will do so for the rest of my life.  And interestingly when I talked to a very wise and very well read Orthodox friend about his fate, many of his speculations were very similar to yours. 

    But anyways, yeah, I was just interested in your position and I think I may not have realized this nuance at first.






    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #112 on: December 19, 2025, 06:47:17 AM »
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  • Again, it entirely depends on what Trent actually taught. Believing that Trent taught that the laver and desire are both necessary is a perfectly valid belief considering Pope St Leo the Great's "Tome" professed at the Council of Chalcedon (posted above)
    Trent teaches that Justification cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration. This right here tells us that no sacrament = no justification.
    Trent goes on to say that justification cannot be effected without the desire for the laver of regeneration. 

    Which is saying both the sacrament and the desire for the sacrament are necessary for justification. Even if someone disagrees with this, they must admit that nowhere does Trent say the desire alone is all that is needed to be saved. Heck, Trent does not even say that about the sacrament.   
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #113 on: December 19, 2025, 07:08:30 AM »
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  • Trent teaches that Justification cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration. This right here tells us that no sacrament = no justification.
    Trent goes on to say that justification cannot be effected without the desire for the laver of regeneration.

    Which is saying both the sacrament and the desire for the sacrament are necessary for justification. Even if someone disagrees with this, they must admit that nowhere does Trent say the desire alone is all that is needed to be saved. Heck, Trent does not even say that about the sacrament. 
    Right, that is what I believe as well. I also believe that Trent made clear what was being taught when immediately after that part it says "as it is written [John 3:5]"

    Well, what does John 3:5 say?

    Quote
    3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


    This is not an "either/or" scenario. Our Lord says "water" [the Sacrament] and the Holy Ghost [Justification from the Holy Ghost effected by the Sacrament and the desire/proper dispositions].

    No one is "born again" with just the Water, or just the Holy Ghost.

    That is why Trent specified the laver and desire

    No man is Justified by the "laver of regeneration" if he does not have the "desire thereof". No man is Justified by the "desire thereof" if he does not have the "laver of regeneration"
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #114 on: December 19, 2025, 07:23:29 AM »
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  • //No man is Justified by the "laver of regeneration" if he does not have the "desire thereof". No man is Justified by the "desire thereof" if he does not have the "laver of regeneration"//

    What about infants?


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #115 on: December 19, 2025, 07:35:48 AM »
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  • //No man is Justified by the "laver of regeneration" if he does not have the "desire thereof". No man is Justified by the "desire thereof" if he does not have the "laver of regeneration"//

    What about infants?
    That is why infants have God Parents...

    From Trent's catechism:

    Intention

    The faithful are also to be instructed in the necessary dispositions for Baptism. In the first place they must desire
    and intend to receive it; for as in Baptism we all die to sin and resolve to live a new life, it is fit that it be
    administered to those only who receive it of their own free will and accord; it is to be forced upon none. Hence
    we learn from holy tradition that it has been the invariable practice to administer Baptism to no individual
    without previously asking him if he be willing to receive it. This disposition even infants are presumed to have,
    since the will of the Church, which promises for them, cannot be mistaken.

    Catechetical Instruction

    But as the catechetical form consists of many interrogations, if the person to be instructed be an adult, he
    himself answers; if an infant, the sponsor answers for him according to the prescribed form and makes the
    solemn promise.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #116 on: December 19, 2025, 07:39:19 AM »
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  • That is why infants have God Parents...

    From Trent's catechism:

    Intention

    The faithful are also to be instructed in the necessary dispositions for Baptism. In the first place they must desire
    and intend to receive it; for as in Baptism we all die to sin and resolve to live a new life, it is fit that it be
    administered to those only who receive it of their own free will and accord; it is to be forced upon none. Hence
    we learn from holy tradition that it has been the invariable practice to administer Baptism to no individual
    without previously asking him if he be willing to receive it. This disposition even infants are presumed to have,
    since the will of the Church, which promises for them, cannot be mistaken.

    Catechetical Instruction

    But as the catechetical form consists of many interrogations, if the person to be instructed be an adult, he
    himself answers; if an infant, the sponsor answers for him according to the prescribed form and makes the
    solemn promise.
    "Willingness" isn't the same as desire though.  Desire is actively wanting it.  Willingness is just not being opposed.

    I could be wrong, but I doubt Trent was really intending to anathematize BODers or anti BODers.  I think Trent was just saying you *at least* have to desire baptism in order to be saved, in other words, salvation is not by faith alone like Protestants believe, and if you accept the Protestant heresy you are anathema.

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #117 on: December 19, 2025, 07:47:25 AM »
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  • //No man is Justified by the "laver of regeneration" if he does not have the "desire thereof". No man is Justified by the "desire thereof" if he does not have the "laver of regeneration"//

    What about infants?
    Trent Sess. 6 Ch. 4 is referring to the "impious", or those guilty of actual sin
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #118 on: December 19, 2025, 07:56:15 AM »
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  • "Willingness" isn't the same as desire though.  Desire is actively wanting it.  Willingness is just not being opposed.

    I could be wrong, but I doubt Trent was really intending to anathematize BODers or anti BODers.  I think Trent was just saying you *at least* have to desire baptism in order to be saved, in other words, salvation is not by faith alone like Protestants believe, and if you accept the Protestant heresy you are anathema.
    I might agree if Trent didn't complete it's teaching with John 3:5.

    A BOD Is salvation by faith alone. By design, a BOD is completely devoid of Divine Providence and is wholly dependent upon one who saves themself. The fact is, a BOD cannot work at all if Divine Providence is involved. Divine Providence must be completely left out of the formula or a BOD fails.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #119 on: December 19, 2025, 08:53:39 AM »
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  • //No man is Justified by the "laver of regeneration" if he does not have the "desire thereof". No man is Justified by the "desire thereof" if he does not have the "laver of regeneration"//

    What about infants?

    As others have pointed out, that section is about adults, not infants.  There's a Canon in Trent rejecting the notion that the Sacrament justifies even if the recipient has no intention to receieve it.

    What Trent is actually teaching here simply addresses the Protestant heresies, things like how Catholics, believing the Sacraments operate ex opere operato have a superstitious or magical view of how they work ... which is why in the entire Treatise on Justification, the narrative is geared toward explaining the COOPERATION of grace and free will in the process by which the Sacrament justifies.  That's a strong reason to consider that the "laver" and "votum" section does in fact truly mean that both are requred and that there's no justification without one or the other, meaning not without one or else the other (the word "saltem" could have been used, or the conjunctive "or", "vel" rather than "auth".

    I used to believe that Trent taught BoD here, but then I read the ENTIRE Treatise on Justification, and the context makes it clear what the intent of the teaching is, to explain the cooperation of "ex opere operato" effect of the Sacrament and unmerited grace, with the cooperation of the subject who is justified.

    So that when you get to the "laver" or "votum" section, it would be absurd to say, after all that, Trent says and adult can be justified with EITHER the laver OR the votum, when everything leading up to it, the whole point of it was that both are necessary.  And that's to say nothing of the proof text Trent cites immediately after the "laver" or "desire" section, namely, where Our Lord taught that water AND the Holy Ghost are necessary to be born again, with water being the "laver", the Sacrament, and the "votum" being analogous with the role Our Lord taught the Holy Ghost held, to inspire that cooperation, that "votum".

    "We cannot have the wedding without a bride or a groom."
    "I cannot write a letter without a pen and paper."
    "I cannot write a letter without a pen or a pencil."

    In the first two it's clear that both are necessary and that if either one is missing you can't have the wedding.  In the third one, it's clear that one OR the other suffices, where I can write a letter with either a pen or a pencil.

    Let's say I have never heard of or seen baseball and someone says, "We cannot play baseball without a bat or a ball."  So, which type of construction is this?  I can't tell unless I know about baseball.  It's ambiguous.  But now, what if someone says, "We cannot play baseball without a bat or a ball, since you need a bat and a ball to play baseball."  Now the meaning is clear.

    Let's look at Trent then:

    "Justification cannot happen without the laver or the desire ..." (is it one or the other, is it both?)

    How about now ?

    "Justification cannot happen without the laver or the desire, since Our Lord taugth that we must be born again of water AND the Holy Ghost."

    Clearly Trent is making an analogy, like those old SAT tests.   laver:water::votum:Holy Ghost, read as "laver is to water what votum is to Holy Ghost".  That's why Trent adduces this as a proof text.

    But to read it the standard way, one would have to say that this ...  "We cannot play baseball without a bat or a ball, since Bob told me we need a bat and a ball in order to play." ACTUALLY MEANS that we can play baseball if we just have one or the other.

    Now, another problem with the either ... or reading.

    Justification cannot happen without the laver or the votum.

    If by this you mean either ... or, then the logical corollary is that "Justification CAN happen without the votum." (but that's condemned, where Trent teaches that the Sacrament doesn't justify without the votum) and that "Justificiation CAN happen WITHOUT the laver."  That's also a huge proble, since Trent clearly taught that justification cannot happen WITHOUT the Sacrament, so Trent would be contradicting its own teaching.  Even in a BoD type of scenario, you have to say that the Sacrament of Baptism is still necessary, i.e. that justification cannot happen WITHOUT it, just that somehow it operates through the votum or, as St. Robert Bellarmine said, it's not that we do not receive the Sacrament, but that we receive it in voto, where it's more an alternative mode of receiving the Sacraement.  He developed this forumulation precisely because he realized that it would be heretical to say someone can be justified without the Sacrament.

    Finally, another reason that after I read the entire Treatise I changed my mind about my prior belief that Trent taught BoD is ... where is any mention of Baptism of Blood?  If Trent were teaching or intending to teach about the so-called "Three Baptisms", then why silence about the BoB?  According to the theorists, like St. Alphonsus, BoB has a "quasi-ex-opere-operato" effect, where it does remit all temporal punishment due to sin (unlike BoD), so it does not simply reduce to BoD.  If you read Trent the way BoDers do, you have to reject the notion of a BoB that's in any way distinct from or does not reduce ultimately to BoD ... where one is justified by the Baptism of Desire, and then maybe BoB is just an add-on of sorts to wipe out temporal punishment due to sin.

    None of the BoDer position makes any sense, not if one actually sits down and reads the Treatise on Justification with an open mind and in the original Latin if possible, since English translations can be misleading, and one of the most popular ones represents a DELIBERATE mistranslation to force BoD thinking into those passages.