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Author Topic: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences  (Read 98007 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
« Reply #75 on: December 18, 2025, 04:05:00 PM »
Here is something I wrote to a relative about 3 years ago. Feeneyites take note.

The term "de fide" is a label theologians place on teachings (particularly for confessors to use). A teaching being labeled "de fide" means it is "of faith" so that if you were to deny it deliberately, it would mean that you would lose the divine virtue of Faith (which is what makes a heretic).

When someone commits ANY mortal sin, such as murder, they automatically lose the divine virtue of charity.
Someone who willingly denies a "de fide" teaching also commits a mortal sin, and not only loses the divine virtue of charity but ALSO that of divine faith.
Catechisms don't show these labels on teachings, because it is meant for confessors to know how to handle it. There are teachings in the catechisms that are not "de fide", but you can't tell which ones, because we are obliged to believe ALL, even that which is less than "de fide".
So, if someone denies a major teaching that is less than "de fide", he would NOT lose the divine virtue of faith, but he would still commit a mortal sin (losing the divine virtue of charity).
Feeneyites wrongly think if something is not "de fide", they are free and clear to reject it without any consequences!
But, baptism of desire IS "de fide". St. Alphonsus says so written in his Moral Theology, Book 6, Section II (About Baptism and Confirmation), Chapter 1 (On Baptism), page 310, no. 96:

"Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'"

The writings of St. Alphonsus were scrutinized by the Church, when he was beatified, again when he was canonized, and again when he was declared a Doctor of the Church. Approved. He is also consider THE moral theologian. His books were followed by clergy so that in the confessional they would advise any penitent who denied baptism of desire that they must believe it as true or else cease to be Catholic.

St. Alphonsus, and the Church approving, could not have made a mistake.


Freind, 

I come as a friend. I have defended BoD in its simple core principle around here for a decade or so, so I do not write with any animus toward you. I might have years ago, when I would have proudly worn that badge, "Feeneyite." Still and always will have a soft spot for Father Feeney, who was railroaded by a bunch of apostates, and betrayed by a pope.

But St. Alphonsus doesn't tell us what is de fide. 

DR

Offline gladius_veritatis

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Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
« Reply #76 on: December 18, 2025, 04:06:15 PM »
The "punishment" of those infants would be deprivation of the beatific vision, but no real suffering. I can't recall if that is just theory or if there are Magisterial statements directly supporting that.

So, a resurrected man whose only "infraction" is original sin, has an immortal body and soul that will not be separated throughout eternity, and spends eternity WHERE, in what 3-D region?  Under the earth, in darkness, but sans fire?  What sort of existence is that?  How would such a life NOT be a disproportionate punishment?

Additionally, are the new heaven AND new earth -- two distinct words joined by AND, which actually intensifies any indication of TWO distinct things -- one place or two?  What is the point of a new, unpopulated earth?  Presumably ALL who are saved will be in the new heaven, no?  So who, if anyone, is on earth at this point?  


Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
« Reply #77 on: December 18, 2025, 04:08:03 PM »
So, a resurrected man whose only "infraction" is original sin, has an immortal body and soul that will not be separated throughout eternity, and spends eternity WHERE, in what 3-D region?  Under the earth, in darkness, but sans fire?  What sort of existence is that?  How would such a life NOT be a disproportionate punishment?

Additionally, are the new heaven AND new earth -- two distinct words joined by AND, which actually intensifies any indication of TWO distinct things -- one place or two?  What is the point of a new, unpopulated earth?  Presumably ALL who are saved will be in the new heaven, no?  So who, if anyone, is on earth at this point? 

If you are asking me where Limbo is . . .

Many of us believe in Limbo. Did you think that a temporary place?

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
« Reply #78 on: December 18, 2025, 04:16:54 PM »
Actually, Gladius, it's right there; according to Pope Eugene IV, the infants go to hell:


Quote
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Letentur coeli


“We define also that… the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go straightaway to hell, but to undergo punishments of different kinds.



If he's right, you might as well ask where hell is. 

DR

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
« Reply #79 on: December 18, 2025, 04:17:31 PM »
I recall there being Magisterial statements that Limbo is part of hell. Of course, hell with be there for eternity.

This I do remember with ability to point to the source:

The "punishment" of those infants would be deprivation of the beatific vision, but no real suffering. I can't recall if that is just theory or if there are Magisterial statements directly supporting that.


I think that people have to be very careful of English translations, especially where the word "hell" tends to translate "infer(n)us", as it does in this decree, just like the Creed using the same word for the Limbo Patrum, bosom of Abraham.  While the Creed refers to it (in English translation) as Hell, Our Lord alternatively calls it "Paradise".  It just means an area below, relative to the Kingdom.  Gahenna or other similar terms have been used to describe the place of punishment.  With regard to the expression that they are to be punished disparately, that could also include 0 punishment.  In fact, the Latin word there unequal, disparibus suggest a duality, as in, being in two different categories, between those in actual sin vs. those in original sin.  I think it's just saying that "neither one of them can make it to heaven, and what awaits those guilty of actual sin vs. original only are not even in the same category (disparibus).  So, actual and Original both result in not making it into the Kingdom of Heaven, but outside of that similarity, the two are not even in the same category in terms of what happen to them, i.e. that's where the similarity ends between the two, that either one deprives people of entry into Heaven.  No one has ever read this as any kind of definitive condemnation of Limbo.