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Author Topic: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences  (Read 10962 times)

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Offline Angelus

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Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2025, 05:42:09 PM »
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  • Thank you, but this is not applicable to what I was referring to: St. Alphonsus' definition (some debt of punishment remains) & what Trent taught regarding those who are "born again", and how one could never be "justified" if he is not "born again"

    The effect of Justification is described in the Trent Decree on Justification as happening at two points:

    Here is the explanation by Gemini AI:

    The Council of Trent draws a sharp distinction between the effects of Initial Justification (associated with Baptism) and Restoration (associated with Penance/Confession).

    The crucial difference lies indeed in the Temporal Debt (Temporal Punishment).

    Here is the breakdown based on the Council of Trent, Session VI.

    1. Initial Justification (The First Plank)

    This refers to the transition from being a child of Adam to a child of God.

    The Means: The Sacrament of Baptism (or the votum for it animated by Perfect Charity).


    The Effect (Sacramental): It removes Original SinActual Sin, and All Temporal Punishment.
    • If a person dies immediately after Baptism, they go straight to Heaven; there is no Purgatory.

    The Effect (Baptism of Desire): It removes Original and Actual Sin (Guilt).
    • Nuance: Theologians (like St. Thomas Aquinas) teach that while the Sacrament removes all temporal debt automatically (ex opere operato), the Desire removes temporal debt in proportion to the intensity of the contrition/charity. It is possible for some temporal debt to remain if the act of charity wasn't sufficiently intense.


    2. Subsequent Justification (The Second Plank)

    This refers to the restoration of a believer who has fallen into mortal sin after Baptism. Trent calls this "The Second Plank after Shipwreck."



    The Means: The Sacrament of Penance (Confession) or Perfect Contrition (with the intent to confess).
    • The Effect: It removes Eternal Punishment (Hell) and restores Sanctifying Grace.
    • The Limitation: It does NOT necessarily remove all Temporal Punishment.

      • This is why the Church prescribes Penance (Satisfaction) and why Purgatory exists. The guilt is gone, but the "mess" left behind (the disorder of the soul and the debt of justice) must still be paid.


    Magisterial Citation (The Proof)

    The Council of Trent explicitly addresses your point in Session VI, Chapter 14 ("On the Fallen and their Restoration"):


    Quote
    "Hence it must be taught that the repentance of a Christian after his fall is very different from that at his baptism; and that therein are included not only a cessation from sins... but also the sacramental confession of the said sins... and satisfaction also...
    For we are not to believe that the guilt is remitted in such wise as that the whole penalty of eternal punishment is [always] blotted out, as happens in baptism."

    Summary Table


    FeatureInitial Justification (Baptism)Restoration (Penance/Second Plank)
    State of SoulCleansed of Original Sin.Restored from Personal Mortal Sin.
    Eternal GuiltRemitted.Remitted.
    Temporal DebtRemitted entirely (In Baptism).Remains (Requiring Satisfaction/Purgatory).
    AnalogyA complete cancellation of all debt and a new birth.A healing of a wound that leaves a scar requiring therapy.

    So, the "second desire" (Restoration/Perfect Contrition after falling) remits the guilt of mortal sin but generally leaves the Temporal Debt to be satisfied. This validates the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory and the necessity of penance.



    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #46 on: December 16, 2025, 05:47:49 PM »
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  • Feeneyism is a mystery to me. Please answer my question so I know solidly what I am dealing with.
    Feel free to browse the ghetto
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #47 on: December 16, 2025, 05:50:57 PM »
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  • The effect of Justification is described in the Trent Decree on Justification as happening at two points:

    Here is the explanation by Gemini AI:

    The Council of Trent draws a sharp distinction between the effects of Initial Justification (associated with Baptism) and Restoration (associated with Penance/Confession).

    The crucial difference lies indeed in the Temporal Debt (Temporal Punishment).

    Here is the breakdown based on the Council of Trent, Session VI.

    1. Initial Justification (The First Plank)

    This refers to the transition from being a child of Adam to a child of God.

    The Means: The Sacrament of Baptism (or the votum for it animated by Perfect Charity).


    The Effect (Sacramental): It removes Original Sin, Actual Sin, and All Temporal Punishment.
    • If a person dies immediately after Baptism, they go straight to Heaven; there is no Purgatory.

    The Effect (Baptism of Desire): It removes Original and Actual Sin (Guilt).
    • Nuance: Theologians (like St. Thomas Aquinas) teach that while the Sacrament removes all temporal debt automatically (ex opere operato), the Desire removes temporal debt in proportion to the intensity of the contrition/charity. It is possible for some temporal debt to remain if the act of charity wasn't sufficiently intense.


    2. Subsequent Justification (The Second Plank)

    This refers to the restoration of a believer who has fallen into mortal sin after Baptism. Trent calls this "The Second Plank after Shipwreck."



    The Means: The Sacrament of Penance (Confession) or Perfect Contrition (with the intent to confess).
    • The Effect: It removes Eternal Punishment (Hell) and restores Sanctifying Grace.
    • The Limitation: It does NOT necessarily remove all Temporal Punishment.

      • This is why the Church prescribes Penance (Satisfaction) and why Purgatory exists. The guilt is gone, but the "mess" left behind (the disorder of the soul and the debt of justice) must still be paid.


    Magisterial Citation (The Proof)

    The Council of Trent explicitly addresses your point in Session VI, Chapter 14 ("On the Fallen and their Restoration"):


    Summary Table


    FeatureInitial Justification (Baptism)Restoration (Penance/Second Plank)
    State of SoulCleansed of Original Sin.Restored from Personal Mortal Sin.
    Eternal GuiltRemitted.Remitted.
    Temporal DebtRemitted entirely (In Baptism).Remains (Requiring Satisfaction/Purgatory).
    AnalogyA complete cancellation of all debt and a new birth.A healing of a wound that leaves a scar requiring therapy.

    So, the "second desire" (Restoration/Perfect Contrition after falling) remits the guilt of mortal sin but generally leaves the Temporal Debt to be satisfied. This validates the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory and the necessity of penance.


    I am referring specifically to Trent's description of the man "born again", what Trent taught happens if one is not "born again' (never could be "justified"), and how St. Alphonsus' definition of BOD fits in with it
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Freind

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #48 on: December 16, 2025, 05:53:13 PM »
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  • Feel free to browse the ghetto

    Tell me what is ridiculous about my question.

    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #49 on: December 16, 2025, 05:57:31 PM »
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  • Tell me what is ridiculous about my question.
    Take a walk through the Ghetto and you'll find out soon enough!
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline Freind

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #50 on: December 16, 2025, 05:59:29 PM »
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  • Take a walk through the Ghetto and you'll find out soon enough!

    I'm not going to spend all that time. Just tell me why my question is "ridiculous".

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #51 on: December 16, 2025, 06:14:05 PM »
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  • I am referring specifically to Trent's description of the man "born again", what Trent taught happens if one is not "born again' (never could be "justified"), and how St. Alphonsus' definition of BOD fits in with it
    Did you notice this in my previous post?

    The Effect (Baptism of Desire): It removes Original and Actual Sin (Guilt).
    • Nuance: Theologians (like St. Thomas Aquinas) teach that while the Sacrament removes all temporal debt automatically (ex opere operato), the Desire removes temporal debt in proportion to the intensity of the contrition/charity. It is possible for some temporal debt to remain if the act of charity wasn't sufficiently intense.


    Here is the exact citation where St. Thomas Aquinas distinguishes between the effects of the Sacrament of Baptism (remission of all debt) and Baptism of Desire (remission of guilt, but not necessarily all debt).

    The Citation

    Summa Theologiae, Third Part, Question 68, Article 2, Reply to Objection 2.
    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.III.Q68.A2.Rep2

    The Quote

    In this passage, St. Thomas is discussing a Catechumen who has faith and charity (Baptism of Desire) but dies before the Sacrament:


    Quote
    "No man obtains eternal life unless he be free from all guilt and debt of punishment. Now this plenary absolution is given when a man receives Baptism...
    "Suppose, therefore, a catechumen to have the desire for Baptism... such a one, were he to die, would not forthwith come to eternal life, but would suffer punishment for his past sins, 'but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire' (1 Corinthians 3:15).
    "And then, if fully purged, he becomes worthy of eternal life."

    The Supporting Citation (The "Why")

    He reinforces this in Question 69, Article 4, Reply to Objection 2, where he explains why the Sacrament is more powerful than the mere desire:


    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.III.Q69.A4.Rep2

    Quote
    "Man receives the forgiveness of sins before Baptism in so far as he has Baptism of desire, explicitly or implicitly; and yet when he actually receives Baptism, he receives a fuller remission, as to the remission of the entire punishment."

    The Logic:
    • Sacrament: Applies the merits of Christ's Passion fully and objectively (ex opere operato), wiping away all temporal debt instantly.
    • Desire: Relies on the subjective intensity of the person's own charity and contrition (ex opere operantis). Unless that act of love is absolutely perfect and intense (like a martyr), it usually leaves some "temporal debt" that must be purged in Purgatory.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #52 on: December 16, 2025, 10:15:00 PM »
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  • Here is something I wrote to a relative about 3 years ago. Feeneyites take note.

    Take note, EENS-deniers, that EENS is most certainly de fide, since it's been defined.  There's no definition ever of BoD.

    So those of you who deny EENS, you are in fact heretics, and it's also heretical to be a Pelagian and to deny that the Sacraments are necessary for salvation ... which nearly all BoDers do.  Most of you therefore hit the Trifecta of heresy.

    Of course, if you believe non-Catholics can be saved, which is distinct from BoD per se, but again few BoDers do not believe this, since it's the very point of their clinging to BoD with cold / dead brains, not because they're concerned about the rare case of a Catechumen who dies in a car crash on the way to his Baptism ... if you believe non-Catholics can be saved, you're a schismatic also, since every purported error of Vatican II depends on and derives from the ecclesiology that derives from this error, so in rejecting Vatican II, you're in schism, as it only teaches what you yourselves believe.

    St. Alphonsus was wrong about the theological note, citing one source that was just a letter to a bishop, before Vatican I had made the necessary definition, and in a similar letter Pope Innocent also declared that Mass was valid if the priest merely thought the words of consecration, an error for which St. Thomas Aquinas took him to task.  Father Cekada also did a survey of theologians and found that of about 27 or so that he could find at all, few of the sources agreed with St. Alphonsus that it was de fide.

    But what is meant by "Baptism of Desire" (a term that appears nowhere in any Magisterial source)?

    Finally, explain how Feeneyites deny Trent, you dunce.  Trent teaches that justification cannot happen without the laver or the votum.  "Feeneyites" believe this.  They merely distinguish between justification and salvation.

    Please explain where this distinction is "heretical", since, well, the respected Dominican theologian Melchior Cano, writing after Trent, made the exact same distinction, where he held that infidels could be justified but not saved.

    So please produce the condemnation of Melchior Cano for teaching heresy.

    Until then, shut your arrogant trap, ya moron.  None of you can refute anything, but you regurgitate the same talking points that have been refuted a thousand times, even after it's demonstrated to you that it's false.

    And 95% of you are in fact heretics who deny the dogma that there's no salvation outside the Church.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #53 on: December 16, 2025, 10:19:06 PM »
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  • Did you notice this in my previous post?

    You mean the one where you claim that Ratzinger faked his death and will return to save the Church?  That post?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #54 on: December 16, 2025, 10:35:54 PM »
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  • Are you suggesting St. Alphonsus called into question a previously solemnly defined dogma?

    While I have not the entirety of this stupid thread, he's likely referring to the fact that St. Alphonsus' explanation of BoD does in fact contradict Trent, AND, ironically, he contradicts a letter that's almost identical in authority to the one he cites for BoD as making it de fide

    St. Alphonsus cites Innocent II de presbytero non baptizato for one source making it de fide.  Well, not only is the authenticity and authorship of it disputed, maybe Innocent II, maybe III, to some unknown bishop where, relying on the "authority of Augustine and Ambrose" (mistakenly, and then not on the authority of the Apostles Peter and Paul, what's usually invoked when defining a doctrine with papal authority).

    But then St. Alphonsus asserts that in BoD some temporal punishment usually remains and such a one would almost invariably end up in Purgatory.  Well, irony of ironies, a letter by Innocent III, of an almost identical authority, a letter to a bishop, regarding an invalidly baptized Jews, says that his BoD powers would result in his rushing to heaven immediately and without delay, which contradicts St. Alphonsus' claim that they would normally be detained in Purgatory.

    BUT ... what's more, St. Alphonsus contradicts Trent.  Trent teaches that the initial justification at Baptism (vs. re-justification at Confession if one lost the state of grace) is in fact a rebirth (as Sacred Scripture teaches clearly in referring to the baptized being "born again").  But then Trent DEFINES "rebirth" as (which the name itself clearly implies) a complete restoration of the soul to innocence where not only no Original Sin or guilt of actual sin remains, but also not any temporal punishment due to sin, so that someone who died immediately after rebirth would in fact go immediately to Heaven without any delay ... similar to what Pope Innocent III said.  So initial justification = a rebirth = a complete cleansing of sin and all punishment due to sin, which precludes any type of delay in Purgatory.  Otherwise, those who are justified by BoD could never be said to be "born again" or enter into an initial justification.  Trent explicitly states that there cannot be an initial justification without rebirth.  So St. Alphonsus is claiming precisely what Trent denies, namely a justification that does not entail a rebirth.

    So, St. Alphonsus contradicts BOTH of the authorities that he claimed made BoD de fide, both Trent and a papal letter by Innocent III (almost identical to the one he cited, and some sources believe Innocent III had written also the one St. Alphonsus cited, and not Innocent II).

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #55 on: December 17, 2025, 04:22:30 AM »
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  • The same Church promotes what St. Paul said AND baptism of desire. The divine Church promotes both. Why don't you accept both?
    Nope, only those who are already baptized promote a BOD. You will never produce a quote from one not yet baptized promoting the  thing.

    Did you not read what St. Alphonsus said regarding The Council of Trent, Session Seven, Sacraments in General, Canon 4?
    He said: "The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary, inasmuch as they hold that man is justified by faith alone."

    A BOD is justification by faith alone, which is the heresy of Luther being condemned at Trent, here's you saying that a heresy is promoted by the Church. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #56 on: December 17, 2025, 09:17:16 AM »
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  • Take note, EENS-deniers, that EENS is most certainly de fide, since it's been defined.  There's no definition ever of BoD.

    So those of you who deny EENS, you are in fact heretics, and it's also heretical to be a Pelagian and to deny that the Sacraments are necessary for salvation ... which nearly all BoDers do.  Most of you therefore hit the Trifecta of heresy.

    Of course, if you believe non-Catholics can be saved, which is distinct from BoD per se, but again few BoDers do not believe this, since it's the very point of their clinging to BoD with cold / dead brains, not because they're concerned about the rare case of a Catechumen who dies in a car crash on the way to his Baptism ... if you believe non-Catholics can be saved, you're a schismatic also, since every purported error of Vatican II depends on and derives from the ecclesiology that derives from this error, so in rejecting Vatican II, you're in schism, as it only teaches what you yourselves believe.

    St. Alphonsus was wrong about the theological note, citing one source that was just a letter to a bishop, before Vatican I had made the necessary definition, and in a similar letter Pope Innocent also declared that Mass was valid if the priest merely thought the words of consecration, an error for which St. Thomas Aquinas took him to task.  Father Cekada also did a survey of theologians and found that of about 27 or so that he could find at all, few of the sources agreed with St. Alphonsus that it was de fide.

    But what is meant by "Baptism of Desire" (a term that appears nowhere in any Magisterial source)?

    Finally, explain how Feeneyites deny Trent, you dunce.  Trent teaches that justification cannot happen without the laver or the votum.  "Feeneyites" believe this.  They merely distinguish between justification and salvation.

    Please explain where this distinction is "heretical", since, well, the respected Dominican theologian Melchior Cano, writing after Trent, made the exact same distinction, where he held that infidels could be justified but not saved.

    So please produce the condemnation of Melchior Cano for teaching heresy.

    Until then, shut your arrogant trap, ya moron.  None of you can refute anything, but you regurgitate the same talking points that have been refuted a thousand times, even after it's demonstrated to you that it's false.

    And 95% of you are in fact heretics who deny the dogma that there's no salvation outside the Church.

    You seem to be under the impression that we are attacking the distinction between Justification and Salvation. On the contrary, my entire argument rests upon it.

    You cited Melchior Cano to prove that one can be Justified (restored to friendship with God) without necessarily being Saved (admitted immediately to the Beatific Vision). I agree with you. That is precisely the thesis of my monograph.

    1. We agree on Trent: As you noted, Trent teaches that Justification comes via the laver or the votum. I affirm this.

    2. We agree on the Distinction: You argue that 'Feeneyites' believe a person can be Justified via votum yet still not attain 'Salvation' (which you define as immediate entry to Heaven). My monograph formalizes this using the Greek distinction between Zoe (Justified Life) and Soteria (Sacramental access to the Vision).

    3. The only difference: You seem to imply that these Justified souls (who have votum but lack water) are arguably lost or in a permanent limbo of deprivation. My hypothesis, relying on Pius IX’s promise of 'Eternal Life' (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore), posits that their exclusion is temporal (analogous to the Limbus Patrum) rather than eternal.

    If Melchior Cano was not condemned for separating Justification from Salvation, then neither am I. We simply disagree on the final eschatological resolution of that separation.


    You can find the link to my latest version of my Monograph here:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/possible-strict-eens-chapel/msg1011004/#msg1011004



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #57 on: December 17, 2025, 09:49:17 AM »
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  • You seem to be under the impression that we are attacking the distinction between Justification and Salvation.

    No, you keep missing the points of various arguments.

    OP accuses "Feeneyites" of "heresy" based on St. Alphonsus' criteria, where he says BoD is taught by Trent (that other docuмent being separate), but I'm focused on Trent here.

    Let's see what Trent teaches.  Justification cannot happen without the laver or the votum.

    But Feeeneyites agree with this (the Dimondite perspective puts a different interpretation on the grammatical construction which IMO has much validity, but not relevant here, as he's attacking Feeneyites).

    So Feeneyites do say there can be justification by votum, i.e. that so-called "Baptism of Desire" is, in their view, "Justification of Desire".  At no point is the term "Baptism of Desire" used by any Magisterial sources.

    If Trent teaches Justification of Desire (or JoD), and Feeneyites agree with it, then I ask OP where Feeneyites commit heresy by "rejecting Trent".

    And if he attempts to claim that it's a bogus distinction, between justification and salvation, those terms are in fact distinct, and Melchior Cano, OP, approved and respected theologian writing after Trent, made that same distinction, applying it where infidels (those who believe in God but not the Holy Trinity and Incarnation) could be justified but not saved.

    So ... OP needs to justify how "Feeneyites" heretically reject Trent.  I've pointed this out to others who have made the charge of heresy ... and it's been crickets.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #58 on: December 17, 2025, 10:29:59 AM »
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  • No, you keep missing the points of various arguments.

    OP accuses "Feeneyites" of "heresy" based on St. Alphonsus' criteria, where he says BoD is taught by Trent (that other docuмent being separate), but I'm focused on Trent here.

    Let's see what Trent teaches.  Justification cannot happen without the laver or the votum.

    But Feeeneyites agree with this (the Dimondite perspective puts a different interpretation on the grammatical construction which IMO has much validity, but not relevant here, as he's attacking Feeneyites).

    So Feeneyites do say there can be justification by votum, i.e. that so-called "Baptism of Desire" is, in their view, "Justification of Desire".  At no point is the term "Baptism of Desire" used by any Magisterial sources.

    If Trent teaches Justification of Desire (or JoD), and Feeneyites agree with it, then I ask OP where Feeneyites commit heresy by "rejecting Trent".

    And if he attempts to claim that it's a bogus distinction, between justification and salvation, those terms are in fact distinct, and Melchior Cano, OP, approved and respected theologian writing after Trent, made that same distinction, applying it where infidels (those who believe in God but not the Holy Trinity and Incarnation) could be justified but not saved.

    So ... OP needs to justify how "Feeneyites" heretically reject Trent.  I've pointed this out to others who have made the charge of heresy ... and it's been crickets.

    I agree with you. This distinction is the entire foundation of my argument.

    1. We Agree: A person can be Justified (remission of guilt/enmity) via votum without being Saved (admitted to the Beatific Vision).

    2. My Thesis: I am simply defining where that person goes. If they are Justified (Friend of God) but Unsaved (No Beatific Vision), they cannot go to Hell, and they cannot go to Heaven. They must go to a Limbo of the Just.

    3. The Difference: You (and Cano) perhaps leave them there forever or assume they eventually fall. I posit, based on Pius IX’s promise of 'Eternal Life' (aeternam vitam), that this 'Justified but Unsaved' state is a temporal detention until the General Resurrection.

    If you claim Melchior Cano is orthodox for separating Justification from Salvation, you cannot accuse me of heresy for doing the exact same thing. We are using the same principles; I am just proposing an eschatological resolution for those souls that aligns with the mercy described by Pius IX."

    You try to trap "BoDers" (Baptism of Desire supporters) by saying, "You guys think Desire gets you into Heaven, but Trent only says it Justifies you!"

    Yes, precisely, and here are the options that follow from your statement:


    1. Option A: You say God sends a Justified soul to Hell. (This contradicts Trent, which says Justification transfers us from being children of wrath to children of God. God doesn't damn His friends)

    2. Option B: You say God sends them to Limbo forever.

    3. Option C:  You admit they might eventually get to Heaven.

    Therefore, you have inadvertently validated my Zoe/Soteria distinction as the only logical way to read Trent without ignoring EENS.

    Got to go to Mass now. Catch you later. I'm glad we are in agreement on this.


    Offline Freind

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #59 on: December 17, 2025, 11:13:10 AM »
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  • Nope, only those who are already baptized promote a BOD. You will never produce a quote from one not yet baptized promoting the  thing.

    Did you not read what St. Alphonsus said regarding The Council of Trent, Session Seven, Sacraments in General, Canon 4?
    He said: "The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary, inasmuch as they hold that man is justified by faith alone."

    A BOD is justification by faith alone, which is the heresy of Luther being condemned at Trent, here's you saying that a heresy is promoted by the Church.

    That's absurd. That would be like saying, nobody who actually went to purgatory has declared there is a purgatory.