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Author Topic: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences  (Read 46394 times)

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Offline Freind

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Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2025, 11:18:36 AM »
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  • But that was St. Alphonsus' definition of BOD, right? That it was he held to be "de fide"?

    Are you suggesting St. Alphonsus called into question a previously solemnly defined dogma?

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #31 on: December 16, 2025, 11:32:24 AM »
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  • Are you suggesting St. Alphonsus called into question a previously solemnly defined dogma?
    Are you suggesting that I'm suggesting St. Alphonsus knowingly taught something that was contrary to Trent?

    If you can reconcile what Trent teaches with St. Alphonsus' definition of BOD, by all means go ahead. I am willing to learn
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline Freind

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #32 on: December 16, 2025, 11:39:10 AM »
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  • Are you suggesting that I'm suggesting St. Alphonsus knowingly taught something that was contrary to Trent?

    If you can reconcile what Trent teaches with St. Alphonsus' definition of BOD, by all means go ahead. I am willing to learn

    I am asking whether you think he objectively did or not.

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #33 on: December 16, 2025, 11:48:42 AM »
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  • I am asking whether you think he objectively did or not.
    Really means that much to you, huh?

    If you can reconcile what Trent teaches with St. Alphonsus' definition of BOD, by all means go ahead. I am willing to learn
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #34 on: December 16, 2025, 12:40:52 PM »
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  • The One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church promotes it, in the name of Jesus Christ. You can't even say yes to the truth that the same Church gave us the New Testament Scriptures!
    The One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church promotes St. Paul's infallible teaching to the Ephesians: "One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism."

    The only ones who promote a BOD are already baptized. If anyone can post proof of an unbaptized person promoting it, please post it.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #35 on: December 16, 2025, 12:45:42 PM »
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  • Are you suggesting that I'm suggesting St. Alphonsus knowingly taught something that was contrary to Trent?

    If you can reconcile what Trent teaches with St. Alphonsus' definition of BOD, by all means go ahead. I am willing to learn
    The Council of Trent, Session Seven, Sacraments in General, Canon 4 states:

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    [CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.[

    Commentary by St. Alphonsus Liguori:
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    11.  Can. 4:  Si quis dixerit sacramenta novae legis non esse ad salutem necessaria, sed superflua; et sine eis aut eorum voto per solam fidem homines a Deo gratiam justificationis adipisci, licet omnia singulis necessaria non siut, anathema sit."

    12.  The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary, inasmuch as they hold that man is justified by faith alone, and that the sacraments only serve to excite and nourish this faith, which (as they say) can be equally excited and nourished by preaching.  But this is certainly false, and is condemned in the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth canons:  for as we know from the Scriptures, some of the sacraments are necessary (necessitate Medii) as a means without which salvation is impossible. Thus Baptism is necessary for all, Penance for them who have fallen into sin after Baptism, and the Eucharist is necessary for all at least in desire ( in voto)

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #36 on: December 16, 2025, 04:47:30 PM »
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  • Really means that much to you, huh?

    If you can reconcile what Trent teaches with St. Alphonsus' definition of BOD, by all means go ahead. I am willing to learn

    So glad you are ready to learn.

    Baptism of Desire occurs either by an explicit desire to receive the Sacrament (as in a Catechumen) or an implicit desire contained in a resolve to fulfill God’s will (as in the Invincibly Ignorant).

    Once this desire is formed—provided it is animated by Perfect Charity (love of God above all things) and Perfect Contrition—the soul is justified by God's Grace immediately, even before the physical reception of the Sacrament.

    This is exactly analogous to the doctrine of Perfect Contrition, where a penitent is absolved of sin before entering the confessional, precisely because their contrition includes the resolve to receive the Sacrament as soon as possible."



    Offline Freind

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #37 on: December 16, 2025, 05:10:19 PM »
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  • Really means that much to you, huh?

    If you can reconcile what Trent teaches with St. Alphonsus' definition of BOD, by all means go ahead. I am willing to learn

    You can't reconcile it? Which means you think it doubts previously defined solemn dogma? Please answer what you think.


    Offline Freind

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #38 on: December 16, 2025, 05:11:27 PM »
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  • The One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church promotes St. Paul's infallible teaching to the Ephesians: "One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism."

    The only ones who promote a BOD are already baptized. If anyone can post proof of an unbaptized person promoting it, please post it.

    The same Church promotes what St. Paul said AND baptism of desire. The divine Church promotes both. Why don't you accept both?

    Offline Freind

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #39 on: December 16, 2025, 05:14:02 PM »
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  • So glad you are ready to learn.

    Baptism of Desire occurs either by an explicit desire to receive the Sacrament (as in a Catechumen) or an implicit desire contained in a resolve to fulfill God’s will (as in the Invincibly Ignorant).

    Once this desire is formed—provided it is animated by Perfect Charity (love of God above all things) and Perfect Contrition—the soul is justified by God's Grace immediately, even before the physical reception of the Sacrament.

    This is exactly analogous to the doctrine of Perfect Contrition, where a penitent is absolved of sin before entering the confessional, precisely because their contrition includes the resolve to receive the Sacrament as soon as possible."

    Well done.

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #40 on: December 16, 2025, 05:15:41 PM »
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  • So glad you are ready to learn.

    Baptism of Desire occurs either by an explicit desire to receive the Sacrament (as in a Catechumen) or an implicit desire contained in a resolve to fulfill God’s will (as in the Invincibly Ignorant).

    Once this desire is formed—provided it is animated by Perfect Charity (love of God above all things) and Perfect Contrition—the soul is justified by God's Grace immediately, even before the physical reception of the Sacrament.

    This is exactly analogous to the doctrine of Perfect Contrition, where a penitent is absolved of sin before entering the confessional, precisely because their contrition includes the resolve to receive the Sacrament as soon as possible."
    Thank you, but this is not applicable to what I was referring to: St. Alphonsus' definition (some debt of punishment remains) & what Trent taught regarding those who are "born again", and how one could never be "justified" if he is not "born again"
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #41 on: December 16, 2025, 05:18:45 PM »
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  • You can't reconcile it? Which means you think it doubts previously defined solemn dogma? Please answer what you think.
    Huh? What needs to be reconciled?
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Freind

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #42 on: December 16, 2025, 05:21:10 PM »
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  • Huh? What needs to be reconciled?

    Please, just speak, "Yea, yea, neah, neah" as the Scripture tells us. Do you think St. Alphonsus called into doubt with his wording a previously declared solemn dogma?

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #43 on: December 16, 2025, 05:30:38 PM »
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  • Please, just speak, "Yea, yea, neah, neah" as the Scripture tells us. Do you think St. Alphonsus called into doubt with his wording a previously declared solemn dogma?
    I never feel compelled to answer ridiculous questions 

    You're in the "Feeneyite Ghetto". You do know what we "Feeneyites" believe, right?

    My invitation stands :incense:
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Freind

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #44 on: December 16, 2025, 05:37:50 PM »
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  • I never feel compelled to answer ridiculous questions

    You're in the "Feeneyite Ghetto". You do know what we "Feeneyites" believe, right?

    My invitation stands :incense:

    Feeneyism is a mystery to me. Please answer my question so I know solidly what I am dealing with.