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Author Topic: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences  (Read 18888 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

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Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
« Reply #120 on: December 19, 2025, 07:23:29 AM »
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  • //No man is Justified by the "laver of regeneration" if he does not have the "desire thereof". No man is Justified by the "desire thereof" if he does not have the "laver of regeneration"//

    What about infants?


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #121 on: December 19, 2025, 07:35:48 AM »
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  • //No man is Justified by the "laver of regeneration" if he does not have the "desire thereof". No man is Justified by the "desire thereof" if he does not have the "laver of regeneration"//

    What about infants?
    That is why infants have God Parents...

    From Trent's catechism:

    Intention

    The faithful are also to be instructed in the necessary dispositions for Baptism. In the first place they must desire
    and intend to receive it; for as in Baptism we all die to sin and resolve to live a new life, it is fit that it be
    administered to those only who receive it of their own free will and accord; it is to be forced upon none. Hence
    we learn from holy tradition that it has been the invariable practice to administer Baptism to no individual
    without previously asking him if he be willing to receive it. This disposition even infants are presumed to have,
    since the will of the Church, which promises for them, cannot be mistaken.

    Catechetical Instruction

    But as the catechetical form consists of many interrogations, if the person to be instructed be an adult, he
    himself answers; if an infant, the sponsor answers for him according to the prescribed form and makes the
    solemn promise.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #122 on: December 19, 2025, 07:39:19 AM »
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  • That is why infants have God Parents...

    From Trent's catechism:

    Intention

    The faithful are also to be instructed in the necessary dispositions for Baptism. In the first place they must desire
    and intend to receive it; for as in Baptism we all die to sin and resolve to live a new life, it is fit that it be
    administered to those only who receive it of their own free will and accord; it is to be forced upon none. Hence
    we learn from holy tradition that it has been the invariable practice to administer Baptism to no individual
    without previously asking him if he be willing to receive it. This disposition even infants are presumed to have,
    since the will of the Church, which promises for them, cannot be mistaken.

    Catechetical Instruction

    But as the catechetical form consists of many interrogations, if the person to be instructed be an adult, he
    himself answers; if an infant, the sponsor answers for him according to the prescribed form and makes the
    solemn promise.
    "Willingness" isn't the same as desire though.  Desire is actively wanting it.  Willingness is just not being opposed.

    I could be wrong, but I doubt Trent was really intending to anathematize BODers or anti BODers.  I think Trent was just saying you *at least* have to desire baptism in order to be saved, in other words, salvation is not by faith alone like Protestants believe, and if you accept the Protestant heresy you are anathema.

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #123 on: December 19, 2025, 07:47:25 AM »
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  • //No man is Justified by the "laver of regeneration" if he does not have the "desire thereof". No man is Justified by the "desire thereof" if he does not have the "laver of regeneration"//

    What about infants?
    Trent Sess. 6 Ch. 4 is referring to the "impious", or those guilty of actual sin
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #124 on: December 19, 2025, 07:56:15 AM »
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  • "Willingness" isn't the same as desire though.  Desire is actively wanting it.  Willingness is just not being opposed.

    I could be wrong, but I doubt Trent was really intending to anathematize BODers or anti BODers.  I think Trent was just saying you *at least* have to desire baptism in order to be saved, in other words, salvation is not by faith alone like Protestants believe, and if you accept the Protestant heresy you are anathema.
    I might agree if Trent didn't complete it's teaching with John 3:5.

    A BOD Is salvation by faith alone. By design, a BOD is completely devoid of Divine Providence and is wholly dependent upon one who saves themself. The fact is, a BOD cannot work at all if Divine Providence is involved. Divine Providence must be completely left out of the formula or a BOD fails.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #125 on: December 19, 2025, 08:53:39 AM »
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  • //No man is Justified by the "laver of regeneration" if he does not have the "desire thereof". No man is Justified by the "desire thereof" if he does not have the "laver of regeneration"//

    What about infants?

    As others have pointed out, that section is about adults, not infants.  There's a Canon in Trent rejecting the notion that the Sacrament justifies even if the recipient has no intention to receieve it.

    What Trent is actually teaching here simply addresses the Protestant heresies, things like how Catholics, believing the Sacraments operate ex opere operato have a superstitious or magical view of how they work ... which is why in the entire Treatise on Justification, the narrative is geared toward explaining the COOPERATION of grace and free will in the process by which the Sacrament justifies.  That's a strong reason to consider that the "laver" and "votum" section does in fact truly mean that both are requred and that there's no justification without one or the other, meaning not without one or else the other (the word "saltem" could have been used, or the conjunctive "or", "vel" rather than "auth".

    I used to believe that Trent taught BoD here, but then I read the ENTIRE Treatise on Justification, and the context makes it clear what the intent of the teaching is, to explain the cooperation of "ex opere operato" effect of the Sacrament and unmerited grace, with the cooperation of the subject who is justified.

    So that when you get to the "laver" or "votum" section, it would be absurd to say, after all that, Trent says and adult can be justified with EITHER the laver OR the votum, when everything leading up to it, the whole point of it was that both are necessary.  And that's to say nothing of the proof text Trent cites immediately after the "laver" or "desire" section, namely, where Our Lord taught that water AND the Holy Ghost are necessary to be born again, with water being the "laver", the Sacrament, and the "votum" being analogous with the role Our Lord taught the Holy Ghost held, to inspire that cooperation, that "votum".

    "We cannot have the wedding without a bride or a groom."
    "I cannot write a letter without a pen and paper."
    "I cannot write a letter without a pen or a pencil."

    In the first two it's clear that both are necessary and that if either one is missing you can't have the wedding.  In the third one, it's clear that one OR the other suffices, where I can write a letter with either a pen or a pencil.

    Let's say I have never heard of or seen baseball and someone says, "We cannot play baseball without a bat or a ball."  So, which type of construction is this?  I can't tell unless I know about baseball.  It's ambiguous.  But now, what if someone says, "We cannot play baseball without a bat or a ball, since you need a bat and a ball to play baseball."  Now the meaning is clear.

    Let's look at Trent then:

    "Justification cannot happen without the laver or the desire ..." (is it one or the other, is it both?)

    How about now ?

    "Justification cannot happen without the laver or the desire, since Our Lord taugth that we must be born again of water AND the Holy Ghost."

    Clearly Trent is making an analogy, like those old SAT tests.   laver:water::votum:Holy Ghost, read as "laver is to water what votum is to Holy Ghost".  That's why Trent adduces this as a proof text.

    But to read it the standard way, one would have to say that this ...  "We cannot play baseball without a bat or a ball, since Bob told me we need a bat and a ball in order to play." ACTUALLY MEANS that we can play baseball if we just have one or the other.

    Now, another problem with the either ... or reading.

    Justification cannot happen without the laver or the votum.

    If by this you mean either ... or, then the logical corollary is that "Justification CAN happen without the votum." (but that's condemned, where Trent teaches that the Sacrament doesn't justify without the votum) and that "Justificiation CAN happen WITHOUT the laver."  That's also a huge proble, since Trent clearly taught that justification cannot happen WITHOUT the Sacrament, so Trent would be contradicting its own teaching.  Even in a BoD type of scenario, you have to say that the Sacrament of Baptism is still necessary, i.e. that justification cannot happen WITHOUT it, just that somehow it operates through the votum or, as St. Robert Bellarmine said, it's not that we do not receive the Sacrament, but that we receive it in voto, where it's more an alternative mode of receiving the Sacraement.  He developed this forumulation precisely because he realized that it would be heretical to say someone can be justified without the Sacrament.

    Finally, another reason that after I read the entire Treatise I changed my mind about my prior belief that Trent taught BoD is ... where is any mention of Baptism of Blood?  If Trent were teaching or intending to teach about the so-called "Three Baptisms", then why silence about the BoB?  According to the theorists, like St. Alphonsus, BoB has a "quasi-ex-opere-operato" effect, where it does remit all temporal punishment due to sin (unlike BoD), so it does not simply reduce to BoD.  If you read Trent the way BoDers do, you have to reject the notion of a BoB that's in any way distinct from or does not reduce ultimately to BoD ... where one is justified by the Baptism of Desire, and then maybe BoB is just an add-on of sorts to wipe out temporal punishment due to sin.

    None of the BoDer position makes any sense, not if one actually sits down and reads the Treatise on Justification with an open mind and in the original Latin if possible, since English translations can be misleading, and one of the most popular ones represents a DELIBERATE mistranslation to force BoD thinking into those passages.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #126 on: December 19, 2025, 08:58:20 AM »
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  • A BOD Is salvation by faith alone.

    So, that's a huge problem with BoD, as articulated by 99% of all BoDers.  Basically what the vast majority claim is an "ex opere operantis" salvation, where people can work out salvation on their own and without the Sacraments.

    St. Robert Bellarmine recognized this problem and thus came up with the formula that one receives the Sacrament "in voto", not that one does not receive the Sacrament, since even in BoD you MUST say that the Sacrament remains at least the instrumental cause of justification, somehow.  Now that's a huge stretch, especially in case where people never heard of Baptism, i.e. for "implicit" desire, but at least it doens't contradict the necesity of the Sacrament for salvation.

    Yet almost every single modern BoDer say that there can be substitutes for Baptism, and get sloppy and do not mean that there can be substitutes way of being justified by Baptism than via the actual reception of it with water.  That latter is what might be acceptable in the context of Trent, but almost NOBODY out there articulates it this way.

    So the end result is that most are Pelagians and believe in self-justification and self-salvation.

    Offline Freind

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #127 on: December 19, 2025, 02:34:49 PM »
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  • From Bread of Life:

    Baptism is necessary for salvation by a necessity of means. This necessity is imposed on all men, including infants.

    Baptism is necessary for salvation by a necessity of both means and precept for adults, who are not yet baptized.

    Unbaptized infants who die go to Limbo. Notice, they do not go to Hell. Also notice, they do not go to Heaven.

    Unbaptized adults who die go to Hell. Notice they do not go either to Limbo or to Heaven.

    You reject "in voto" for baptism. Canon Law of 1917, that is "the Church" required a Mass for a catechumen's soul if he should die without the Sacrament which means the catechumen can go to purgatory and be saved with baptism by water. That's what the Church says, and YOU reject it.


    Offline Freind

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #128 on: December 19, 2025, 02:37:53 PM »
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  • Perhaps the only thing one might claim that isn't heretical, though you might be skating on thin ice ... is that after these infants are raised from the dead, they will be baptized right before the consummation of the world, similar to what many Church Fathers believe happened to the just in Limbo.  Certainly not revealed .. but then Limbo Infantium isn't revealed either, and I can't think of any doctrine / dogma it would violate to speculate along those lines.  If someone has a counter-point, I'm all ears, but I can't think of anything.  And one needn't redefine words like Salvation and Hell.

    You could speculate that for those who are dying, God could bilocate some Catholic to baptize an individual, or send an angel to baptize, where just a tiny drop of water would suffice.  St. Cyprian said of his theory regarding the Baptism of Blood, that the martyrs were washed in their blood while angels pronounced the words.  God can pause time, provide an interior illumination of faith, bilocate some to the side of a dying person to baptize etc. etc.

    There are a thousand ways you could speculate ... but WHY IS IT THAT SO MANY ARE LITERALLY HELL-BENT ON DENYING THE NECESSITY OF THE SACRAMENTS FOR SALVATION.

    We're taught about the Sacraments that they are necessary, by God's will, because we are both body and soul.  We're taught that we receive the character of Christ in our souls nad the DNA to become members of Christ's Body, and therefore to be saved.  This character or seal is not just a badge of honor or some non-repeatabiliity marker that some people in Heaven have and others do not.  It has some ontological importance, and that importance is that it actually gives the human soul the supernatural faculty that it lacks by nature, i.e. to see God as He is, supernaturally.

    To what extent God works in an ordinary manner, to what he works in an extraordinary manner, we do not know ... but there's absolutely no reason to somehow claim that God is restricted by impossibilty.  He orchestrates in the most amazing and wonderful manner, by His Providence, who gets born where, to which parents, at what time and place, etc. ... so that if there's a reason that somoene was born among animists, this was not happenstance that God somehow must make exceptions for.  This is what St. Augustine, in rejecting BoD, complained about, where people gave all this power to accident and chance and happenstance ... almost as if they barely believed in God.

    That's to say nothing of the fact that belief in BoD has saved absolutely no one.  As Father Feeney famously put it ... if anything it weakens any desire someone might have to be Baptized.  Just think about it.  If you believe firmly and without exception that you need the Sacrament in water to be saved ... how ardently you'd burn for it, and beg for it, every moment of every day, until you received it.  But if you have the attitude of "meh, BoD will save me."  Are you really even desiring Baptism anymore, or just the desire of Baptism.  There's no Baptism of the Desire of the Desire of Baptism.

    It's just so idiotic, so faithless, where people who think thish way ... I have to wonder if they even believe in God, and His Providence.

    You should accept the fact that the Church in canon law required a requiem Mass for the soul of an catachumen. This direct support salvation without water baptism.

    Why are you rejecting this?


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #129 on: December 19, 2025, 02:40:06 PM »
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  • You reject "in voto" for baptism. Canon Law of 1917, that is "the Church" required a Mass for a catechumen's soul if he should die without the Sacrament which means the catechumen can go to purgatory and be saved with baptism by water. That's what the Church says, and YOU reject it.
    You reject St. Alphonsus' teaching. He says that only heretics say the sacraments are not necessary, and YOU reject it.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #130 on: December 19, 2025, 03:11:12 PM »
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  • You reject St. Alphonsus' teaching. He says that only heretics say the sacraments are not necessary, and YOU reject it.

    Well, he also said this:


    Quote
    Besides, who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance and of the Eucharist. He who wishes the whole, wishes every part of that whole, and all the means for its attainment. In order to be justified without Baptism, an infidel must love God above all things and must have a universal will to observe the divine precepts, among which the first is to receive Baptism: and therefore in order to be justified it is necessary for him to have at least an implicit desire of that sacrament. For it is certain that to such desire is ascribed the spiritual regeneration of a person who has not been baptized, and the remission of sins to baptized persons who have contrition, is likewise ascribed to the explicit or implicit desire of sacramental absolution.


    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/new-st-alphonsus-quotes-on-implicit-bod/


    An infidel justified?

    St. Alphonsus is a man. Some, like he and other doctors, etc., deserve more deference and carry greater weight in their opinions, but they are still but men, subject to the reason contained in their arguments.

    This appears contradictory, or makes the sacramental "necessity" something other than you think it is, Stubborn, at least in St. Alphonsus's view.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #131 on: December 19, 2025, 03:55:43 PM »
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  • So, while nearly all Pro-BoDers make no account whatsoever regarding the necessity of the Sacraments, many Anti-BoDers on the other hand do not recognize that there is a way to uphold the necessity of the Sacraments ... even though I consider it to be weak and very flimsy at best, especially when you get into "implicit" territory.

    Anti-BoDers correctly establish the MAJOR that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation, but a handful of those who favor BoD, most outstandingly St. Robert Bellarmine, realizing that the Sacrament must be operative somehow in order to avoid denying the necessity, carefully articulate that nobody can be saved WITHOUT the Sacrament, but only without ACTUAL RECEPTION of the Sacrament.  Thus, St. Robert says not that those saved by BoD do not receive the Sacrament, but rather that the receive it in voto even if not in actu.  Now, as to how the Sacrament can "operate" by way of this votum, especially where someone doesn't even know about the Sacrament or believe in it, i.e. "implicitly", that's a mystery ... not unlike to how some people say that EENS really just means that there's no salvation except BY MEANS OF the Church, an illegitimate transmogrification of the dogma that even +Lefebvre did.  Similarly, the Sacrament of Baptism must remain the instrumental cause of salvation/justification (depending on your position -- which we prescind from for now) even in a BoD scenario, since otherwise you're denying the necessity of the Sacrament for salvation.

    I've invited those BoDers whose articulations are at once a heretical denial regarding the necessity of the Sacrament(s) for salvation and at the same time Pelagianism (at least semi-, but I think far more than semi-), where effectively salvation becomes an ex operantis endeavor ... ironically exactly like the Protestant heresies that Trent was condemning, I've invited them to at least reword their definition and explanation of BoD to make it uphold the necessity of the Sacrament.  Otherwise, we have this bizarre notion of the "Anonymous Baptized", people who have somehow been saved by the Sacrament without even knowing it, having no idea what it is, never explicitly desiring it ... but by some strange mystical invisible mechanism, kindof like that "action at a distance" attributed to quantum physics that Einstein denounced as "spooky".

    I struggle very much to comprehend how that works, ontologically speaking.  HOW exactly does the Sacrament of Baptism function ex opere operato through this votum in order to instrumentally cause salvation.  There's only one way to posit this, IMO, and that's to shift the necessity of Baptism into being a necessity of precept ... which is precisely what Bishop Sanborn does in his Anti-Feeneyite Catechism.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #132 on: December 19, 2025, 04:04:04 PM »
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  • Yet another reason I can't really abide BoD theory is in its minimizing the role / function of the Sacramental character, having reduced it to the point of triviality, to the point where it's just a badge of honor that some in Heaven have and some do not, and something that serves as a non-repeatability marker or indicator.  Other Sacramental characters effect an ontological change in the recipient ... and that change consists of communicating various divine potencies to human beings who lack these potencies (aka faculties) by nature.  We do not have a natural faculty or capability or potency to see God as He is, but the Sacramental character is what communicates that faculty to human beings, just as Holy Orders communicates the faculty to human beings to act in the power of Christ Himself, where they can forgive sins, offer the Holy Sacrifice, as if they were Christ, receiving a divine power.  What "divine power" do we get from this trivialized and borderline-meaningless character from Baptism?  According to most, practically nothing, since centuries of BoD theory have gutted the significance of the Baptismal character.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #133 on: December 19, 2025, 04:09:41 PM »
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  • If someone wanted to claim that in some cases God will pause time, bilocate some Catholic to the side of a dying person, who then administers the Sacrament of Baptism, before God teleports him back to his original place, and then restarts time ... in order to save people, while I believe that God's Providence does not require such dramatic intervention nor does God operate that way except in extraordinarily rare cases ... I could accept that in theory, in principle, theologically.  As St. Augustine said after he rejected his youthful speculation regarding BoD, that it does unspeakable damage for Catholics to think in such terms, where they believe God can be constrained by impossibility, and simply not competent to arrange everything simply by His Providence in such a way that every one of His elect will receive the Sacraments and be incorporated visibly into the Church.  That speaks to great lack of faith.  Then, since, absit!, God couldn't pull it off and messed up, it would be unfair for Him to not save this Great Thumb worshipper to whom He had never given a chance, but that He'd be required to provide some alternative means for them to be saved ... if He would escape our condemnation and denunciation of His practices as unfair and unmerciful.

    Offline Freind

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #134 on: December 19, 2025, 04:43:11 PM »
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  • You reject St. Alphonsus' teaching. He says that only heretics say the sacraments are not necessary, and YOU reject it.

    Why do you condemn with is in canon law of 1917, Stubborn?