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Author Topic: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences  (Read 41667 times)

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Offline Freind

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  • Here is something I wrote to a relative about 3 years ago. Feeneyites take note.

    The term "de fide" is a label theologians place on teachings (particularly for confessors to use). A teaching being labeled "de fide" means it is "of faith" so that if you were to deny it deliberately, it would mean that you would lose the divine virtue of Faith (which is what makes a heretic).

    When someone commits ANY mortal sin, such as murder, they automatically lose the divine virtue of charity.
    Someone who willingly denies a "de fide" teaching also commits a mortal sin, and not only loses the divine virtue of charity but ALSO that of divine faith.
    Catechisms don't show these labels on teachings, because it is meant for confessors to know how to handle it. There are teachings in the catechisms that are not "de fide", but you can't tell which ones, because we are obliged to believe ALL, even that which is less than "de fide".
    So, if someone denies a major teaching that is less than "de fide", he would NOT lose the divine virtue of faith, but he would still commit a mortal sin (losing the divine virtue of charity).
    Feeneyites wrongly think if something is not "de fide", they are free and clear to reject it without any consequences!
    But, baptism of desire IS "de fide". St. Alphonsus says so written in his Moral Theology, Book 6, Section II (About Baptism and Confirmation), Chapter 1 (On Baptism), page 310, no. 96:

    "Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'"

    The writings of St. Alphonsus were scrutinized by the Church, when he was beatified, again when he was canonized, and again when he was declared a Doctor of the Church. Approved. He is also consider THE moral theologian. His books were followed by clergy so that in the confessional they would advise any penitent who denied baptism of desire that they must believe it as true or else cease to be Catholic.

    St. Alphonsus, and the Church approving, could not have made a mistake.

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #1 on: December 15, 2025, 06:03:44 PM »
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  • The 'ol "Cekada scare tactic" :laugh1:
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline Freind

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #2 on: December 15, 2025, 06:05:20 PM »
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  • The 'ol "Cekada scare tactic" :laugh1:

    Hey! That's what non-Catholic says about Catholics!

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #3 on: December 15, 2025, 06:09:48 PM »
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  • Here is something I wrote to a relative about 3 years ago. Feeneyites take note.

    The term "de fide" is a label theologians place on teachings (particularly for confessors to use). A teaching being labeled "de fide" means it is "of faith" so that if you were to deny it deliberately, it would mean that you would lose the divine virtue of Faith (which is what makes a heretic).

    When someone commits ANY mortal sin, such as murder, they automatically lose the divine virtue of charity.
    Someone who willingly denies a "de fide" teaching also commits a mortal sin, and not only loses the divine virtue of charity but ALSO that of divine faith.
    Catechisms don't show these labels on teachings, because it is meant for confessors to know how to handle it. There are teachings in the catechisms that are not "de fide", but you can't tell which ones, because we are obliged to believe ALL, even that which is less than "de fide".
    So, if someone denies a major teaching that is less than "de fide", he would NOT lose the divine virtue of faith, but he would still commit a mortal sin (losing the divine virtue of charity).
    Feeneyites wrongly think if something is not "de fide", they are free and clear to reject it without any consequences!
    But, baptism of desire IS "de fide". St. Alphonsus says so written in his Moral Theology, Book 6, Section II (About Baptism and Confirmation), Chapter 1 (On Baptism), page 310, no. 96:

    "Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'"

    The writings of St. Alphonsus were scrutinized by the Church, when he was beatified, again when he was canonized, and again when he was declared a Doctor of the Church. Approved. He is also consider THE moral theologian. His books were followed by clergy so that in the confessional they would advise any penitent who denied baptism of desire that they must believe it as true or else cease to be Catholic.

    St. Alphonsus, and the Church approving, could not have made a mistake.
    St Alphonsus also talks about baptism of tears :facepalm: he was not infallible. Baptism of desire is emotional cope same with baptism of blood. Get over it.

    Offline Freind

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #4 on: December 15, 2025, 06:14:43 PM »
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  • St Alphonsus also talks about baptism of tears :facepalm: he was not infallible. Baptism of desire is emotional cope same with baptism of blood. Get over it.

    Sounds like you didn't even read it. And if you did, didn't comprehend it.


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #5 on: December 15, 2025, 06:17:15 PM »
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  • Sounds like you didn't even read it. And if you did, didn't comprehend it.
    Baptism of desire is a false doctrine that has contributed to the current crisis. The Church has never taught it ans even has infallible statements that block the possibility of it (Pope Siricius).

    Offline Freind

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #6 on: December 15, 2025, 06:19:54 PM »
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  • Baptism of desire is a false doctrine that has contributed to the current crisis. The Church has never taught it ans even has infallible statements that block the possibility of it (Pope Siricius).

    So, you are claiming St. Alphonsus taught against a previously defined solemn dogma?

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #7 on: December 15, 2025, 06:26:50 PM »
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  • Hey! That's what non-Catholic says about Catholics!

    Trent teaches:

    Quote
    Council of Trent, Sess. 6, Chap. 3: “But though He died for all, yet all do not receive the benefit of His death, but those only to whom the merit of His passion is communicated; because as truly as men would not be born unjust, if they were not born through propagation of the seed of Adam, since by that propagation they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as their own, so unless they were born again in Christ they would never be justified, since by that new birth through the merit of His passion the grace by which they become just is bestowed upon them.”


    Trent:

    Quote
    If any one denies, that, by the grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only erased, or not imputed; let him be anathema. For, in those who are born again, there is nothing that God hates; because, there is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism into death; who walk not according to the flesh, but, putting off the old man, and putting on the new who is created according to God, are made innocent, immaculate, pure, guiltless, and beloved of God, heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ; in such a manner that absolutely nothing may delay them from entry into heaven

    In those who are "born again" there is "nothing God hates", they are made "innocent, Immaculate, pure, guiltless[...]in such a manner that absolutely nothing may delay them from entry into heaven"

    But St. Alphonsus says BOD does not remove "all debt of punishment''

    It follows that one who receives "BOD" is not born again, because they have not received remission of all punishment due to sin. That is "something" (as opposed to Trent's: "absolutely nothing") that will delay them from entry into heaven. And as Trent teaches, if you're not born again, you can never be justified... :confused:





    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #8 on: December 15, 2025, 06:34:41 PM »
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  • Here is something I wrote to a relative about 3 years ago. Feeneyites take note.

    The term "de fide" is a label theologians place on teachings (particularly for confessors to use). A teaching being labeled "de fide" means it is "of faith" so that if you were to deny it deliberately, it would mean that you would lose the divine virtue of Faith (which is what makes a heretic).

    When someone commits ANY mortal sin, such as murder, they automatically lose the divine virtue of charity.
    Someone who willingly denies a "de fide" teaching also commits a mortal sin, and not only loses the divine virtue of charity but ALSO that of divine faith.
    Catechisms don't show these labels on teachings, because it is meant for confessors to know how to handle it. There are teachings in the catechisms that are not "de fide", but you can't tell which ones, because we are obliged to believe ALL, even that which is less than "de fide".
    So, if someone denies a major teaching that is less than "de fide", he would NOT lose the divine virtue of faith, but he would still commit a mortal sin (losing the divine virtue of charity).
    Feeneyites wrongly think if something is not "de fide", they are free and clear to reject it without any consequences!
    But, baptism of desire IS "de fide". St. Alphonsus says so written in his Moral Theology, Book 6, Section II (About Baptism and Confirmation), Chapter 1 (On Baptism), page 310, no. 96:

    "Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'"

    The writings of St. Alphonsus were scrutinized by the Church, when he was beatified, again when he was canonized, and again when he was declared a Doctor of the Church. Approved. He is also consider THE moral theologian. His books were followed by clergy so that in the confessional they would advise any penitent who denied baptism of desire that they must believe it as true or else cease to be Catholic.

    St. Alphonsus, and the Church approving, could not have made a mistake.


    I used to use this argument too, but there are some theologians who hold BOD to not be de fide but a lesser theological note. Even those theologians who do hold BOD to be of a lesser qualification still consider it’s denial to be a mortal sin. So, all of those people who deny BOD are, at the very least, guilty of mortal sin as there are no theologians, post Trent, who support their position. 

    Some may argue that theologians aren’t part of the teaching Church, but this can’t stand since some of them are bishops and even Doctors of the Church, as in the case of Saint Alphonsus, thus part of the Church teaching. Also, the theologians writing post Trent were approved by the Church and Her popes and none have been corrected, let alone censured, for teaching what Trent taught about BOD.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Freind

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #9 on: December 15, 2025, 06:38:43 PM »
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  • Trent teaches:


    Trent:

    In those who are "born again" there is "nothing God hates", they are made "innocent, Immaculate, pure, guiltless[...]in such a manner that absolutely nothing may delay them from entry into heaven"

    But St. Alphonsus says BOD does not remove "all debt of punishment''

    It follows that one who receives "BOD" is not born again, because they have not received remission of all punishment due to sin. That is "something" (as opposed to Trent's: "absolutely nothing") that will delay them from entry into heaven. And as Trent teaches, if you're not born again, you can never be justified... :confused:
     
    Do you know that going to purgatory means being saved eternally? That aspect has nothing to do with the OP.

    Offline Freind

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #10 on: December 15, 2025, 06:40:22 PM »
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  • I used to use this argument too, but there are some theologians who hold BOD to not be de fide but a lesser theological note. Even those theologians who do hold BOD to be of a lesser qualification still consider it’s denial to be a mortal sin. So, all of those people who deny BOD are, at the very least, guilty of mortal sin as there are no theologians, post Trent, who support their position.

    Some may argue that theologians aren’t part of the teaching Church, but this can’t stand since some of them are bishops and even Doctors of the Church, as in the case of Saint Alphonsus, thus part of the Church teaching. Also, the theologians writing post Trent were approved by the Church and Her popes and none have been corrected, let alone censured, for teaching what Trent taught about BOD.

    As well, there are lots of things in the Catechism that are not "de fide" but still mortal sins to deny!  The Church doesn't label each because HELL is HELL.


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #11 on: December 15, 2025, 06:46:41 PM »
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  • So, you are claiming St. Alphonsus taught against a previously defined solemn dogma?
    Is St Gregory nαzιanzun (THE THEOLOGIAN) a heretic because he denied Baptism of desire?

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #12 on: December 15, 2025, 06:49:47 PM »
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  • Do you know that going to purgatory means being saved eternally? That aspect has nothing to do with the OP.

    Trent teaches: If any one denies, that, by the grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only erased, or not imputed; let him be anathema. For, in those who are born again, there is nothing that God hates; because, there is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism into death; who walk not according to the flesh, but, putting off the old man, and putting on the new who is created according to God, are made innocent, immaculate, pure, guiltless, and beloved of God, heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ; in such a manner that absolutely nothing may delay them from entry into heaven

    Trent teaches: But though He died for all, yet all do not receive the benefit of His death, but those only to whom the merit of His passion is communicated; because as truly as men would not be born unjust, if they were not born through propagation of the seed of Adam, since by that propagation they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as their own, so unless they were born again in Christ they would never be justified, since by that new birth through the merit of His passion the grace by which they become just is bestowed upon them.”

    St. Alphonsus says: "Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment"

    So these people St. Alphonsus is speaking of are not "born again" through BOD, according to Trent. There is "something" (debt of punishment) that delays them from entry into Heaven. But Trent teaches that unless you are "born again" you would "never be justified".

    :confused:

    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Freind

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #13 on: December 15, 2025, 06:50:12 PM »
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  • Is St Gregory nαzιanzun (THE THEOLOGIAN) a heretic because he denied Baptism of desire?

    Anyone teaching as "a theologian" is writing for other theologians to weigh in on their thoughts. It never means a theologian's thoughts are definitive for the public.

    Let's see the quote from St. Gregory that you have in mind.

    Offline Freind

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    Re: Claiming something is not "de fide" still has hellish consequences
    « Reply #14 on: December 15, 2025, 06:51:46 PM »
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  • Trent teaches: If any one denies, that, by the grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only erased, or not imputed; let him be anathema. For, in those who are born again, there is nothing that God hates; because, there is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism into death; who walk not according to the flesh, but, putting off the old man, and putting on the new who is created according to God, are made innocent, immaculate, pure, guiltless, and beloved of God, heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ; in such a manner that absolutely nothing may delay them from entry into heaven

    Trent teaches: But though He died for all, yet all do not receive the benefit of His death, but those only to whom the merit of His passion is communicated; because as truly as men would not be born unjust, if they were not born through propagation of the seed of Adam, since by that propagation they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as their own, so unless they were born again in Christ they would never be justified, since by that new birth through the merit of His passion the grace by which they become just is bestowed upon them.”

    St. Alphonsus says: "Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment"

    So these people St. Alphonsus is speaking of are not "born again" through BOD, according to Trent. There is "something" (debt of punishment) that delays them from entry into Heaven. But Trent teaches that unless you are "born again" you would "never be justified".

    :confused:

    Born again, means sanctifyig grace. I am taking about "de fide", not aspects of the teaching.