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Author Topic: Church should not pursue conversion of Jews, says B16  (Read 8354 times)

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Offline LM

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Church should not pursue conversion of Jews, says B16
« on: March 10, 2011, 09:32:02 AM »
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    Church should not pursue conversion of Jews, pope says
    by John L Allen Jr on Mar. 10, 2011

        * NCR Today

    After excerpts from the second volume of the pope’s book on Jesus made the rounds last week, featuring his rejection of the idea that “the Jews” killed Christ, the full text adds another point with important implications for Christian/Jєωιѕн relations -- in effect, that Christianity “must not concern herself with the conversion of the Jews.”

    The comment comes in Benedict XVI’s book Jesus of Nazareth: Holy Week, the full text of which was released today.

    While the pope does not affirm a theory propounded by some theologians holding that the Jews will be saved independently of Christ, experts say, he does clearly suggest the church should not be targeting Jews for conversion efforts.

    “Israel is in the hands of God, who will save it ‘as a whole’ at the proper time, when the number of Gentiles is full,” the pope writes. The historical duration of this “proper time,” Benedict says, cannot be calculated.

    In terms of the proper Christian attitude in the meantime, Benedict approvingly quotes Cistercian abbess and Biblical writer Hildegard Brem: “The church must not concern herself with the conversion of the Jews, since she must wait for the time fixed for this by God.”

    Although Benedict XVI stipulated in the first volume of his book that he writes as a private theologian rather than authoritatively as head of the Catholic church, his comments inevitably carry weight as indications of the way Benedict is likely to approach these questions as pope.

    The question of conversion has long been among the most explosive in the arena of Catholic/Jєωιѕн relations. Still today, perceptions in the Jєωιѕн world that Christians are targeting them for missionary efforts produce sharply negative reactions.

    Benedict XVI acknowledges that the question of “Israel’s mission” in God’s plan has a painful past.

    “We realize today with horror how many misunderstandings with grave consequences have weighed down our history,” he writes. Yet, the pope says, “the beginnings of a correct understanding have always been there, waiting to be rediscovered, however deep the shadows.”

    The key to that correct understanding, Benedict writes, lies in the Biblical notion of the “times of the Gentiles.”

    The charge given by Jesus to carry the Gospel to the ends of the earth, Benedict says, implies a sequence: first the “full number” of the Gentiles comes to the faith, and only then the Jews. He quotes St. Bernard of Clairvaux’s advice to one of his predecessors, Pope Eugene III, that “a determined time has been fixed” for the conversion of the Jews “that cannot be anticipated.”

    Benedict says that in the early church, the urgency of evangelization wasn’t based so much on the idea that every human being had to know Christ in order to be saved, but rather on a “grand conception of history,” according to which the Gospel had to reach all the nations in order for the world to fulfill its destiny.

    Until God’s plan comes to fruition, Benedict says, the “particular task” of the disciples of Christ is to carry the faith to the Gentiles, not to the Jews.

    The question of whether including Jews in the church’s missionary efforts is legitimate has long been a debated point in Catholic circles.

    Almost ten years ago, the late Cardinal Avery Dulles was critical of a joint statement from the National Council of ѕуηαgσgυєs and the Committee for Ecuмenical and Interreligious Affairs of the U.S. Bishops’ Conference to the effect that “targeting Jews for conversion to Christianity” is “no longer theologically acceptable in the Catholic Church.”

    Dulles replied that the church cannot curtail the scope of the gospel without betraying itself: “Once we grant that there are some persons for whom it is not important to acknowledge Christ, to be baptized and to receive the sacraments, we raise questions about our own religious life,” he wrote.

    Subsequently, the U.S. bishops’ Committee on Doctrine issued a clarification in 2009 that most experts regarded as largely upholding the position taken by Dulles. Its conclusion was, “The fulfillment of the covenants, indeed, of all God’s promises to Israel, is found only in Jesus Christ.”

    Capuchin Fr. Thomas Weinandy, executive director of the U.S. bishops’ Secretariat for Doctrine, cautioned that Benedict XVI’s lines on Judaism in the new book do not endorse a “two-covenant” theology, meaning that Christianity and Judaism represent two parallel paths to salvation, so that Jews are saved without any reference to Christ.

    At the same time, Weinandy said, the pope’s words do clearly indicate that “there’s no specific program that the Catholic church has to convert Jews, which is in God’s time.”

    Rabbi Jacob Neusner, a Jєωιѕн scholar whose Biblical writings have been praised by Benedict XVI, said the pope’s conciliatory statements about Judaism in Jesus of Nazareth are all the more powerful because they’re grounded in scholarship rather than mere inter-faith diplomacy.

    “He’s talking about truth, not about convenience,” Neusner said.

    http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/church-should-not-pursue-conversion-jews-pope-says


    Offline Jehanne

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    Church should not pursue conversion of Jews, says B16
    « Reply #1 on: March 10, 2011, 09:44:32 AM »
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  • If he is not a heretic, then he is at least a pseudo-heretic.  Not even Vatican II went that far:

    "Hence to procure the glory of God and the salvation of these, the Church, mindful of the Lord’s command ‘preach the Gospel to every creature’ (Mk. 16:16) takes zealous care to foster the missions." (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, 16)


    Offline Raoul76

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    Church should not pursue conversion of Jews, says B16
    « Reply #2 on: March 10, 2011, 09:56:00 AM »
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  • Look at them acting as if JPII never said that "the Old Covenant has never been revoked."  

    The Modernist tactics are becoming more clear to me.  You can see it with the story about the United States bishops.  What they do is, first, they spread some error or heresy which then infects countless souls.  The U.S. bishops released a statement, to the press I'm assuming, saying the Church should no longer try to convert the Jews.  This undoubtedly went worldwide and was taught in Novus Ordo churches across the land.  Then a week later someone will say something conservative, like Dulles here, saying "Hm, well, I'm not no sure..."  Very few people hear it and by then it's too late anyway.  But the effect of this is to neutralize the opposition, who hear what they want to hear, even if no one else hears it, and they use this to pretend as if the Novus Ordo structures still contain a conservative element...

    Benedict himself is a master of this.  He will say something heretical, do something blasphemous one day, and then the next he'll give a sop to those who have blinded themselves to believe he is conservative.  He allows people to see him however they want to see him, making himself into a kind of non-personality and non-theologian with no fixed center, no way to ever pin him down to anything concrete, so that no one ever knows what he really believes.  

    This works to the devil's advantage in TWO ways -- those who want the Church to be more liberal ( heretical ) take advantage of his words to put their reforms into place, but the conservatives, because of his occasional orthodox statement, can take the easy way out and pretend that he is one of them.  This buys him more time to do more damage.  

    I compare it to someone who alternates between roundhouse-kicking his wife in the face and then singing love ballads to her on his guitar, to get her to stay.  This is undoubtedly what makes it so hard for people to become sedevacantist and chase these imposters out.  It's easier to just pull up one of Ratzinger's little conservative-sounding statements and then create a fantasy around it that he's going to "change," much easier than becoming what they think of as a loony, extreme sedevacantist.  It's no accident Vatican II has gone on for forty years, this is how it works.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Raoul76

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    Church should not pursue conversion of Jews, says B16
    « Reply #3 on: March 10, 2011, 10:55:38 AM »
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  • Granted, Ratzinger COULD conceivably change, he could become a Catholic, nothing is impossible with God.  But we don't have to pretend he's Pope while we wait for this desirable but unlikely event.  Just praying for him is enough.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Jehanne

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    Church should not pursue conversion of Jews, says B16
    « Reply #4 on: March 10, 2011, 11:00:09 AM »
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  • Raoul, this is what I cannot understand, so I am going to open up a new thread on it, the issue of "implicit faith."  We need to explore this further.  Maybe the Pope, in his heart, at least believes implicitly the truths of the Catholic faith.  He simply just does not know that!   :dancing: :alcohol: (That's you and me, btw, in cyberspace.)  :jumping2: :bob-marley: :read-paper:


    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Church should not pursue conversion of Jews, says B16
    « Reply #5 on: March 10, 2011, 01:19:38 PM »
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  • I'm totally floored. He truly has a warped notion of the early Church and salvation. Of course this is his "private opinion" say the Neo Caths. What insanity... Sigh

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Church should not pursue conversion of Jews, says B16
    « Reply #6 on: March 10, 2011, 03:20:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    He truly has a warped notion of the early Church and salvation. Of course this is his "private opinion" say the Neo Caths.


    A man who publicly shares his private, heretical opinions is...a public heretic.  Was Luther condemned for publicly teaching ideas that were NOT his private opinions?  Uh, no.  He publicly taught his private, heretical opinions and...he was condemned for doing so.

    If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...it is a...giraffe???   2+2=22???
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Church should not pursue conversion of Jews, says B16
    « Reply #7 on: March 10, 2011, 09:29:34 PM »
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  • John XXII publicly shared his private heretical opinion and was still Pope.



    Offline Baskerville

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    Church should not pursue conversion of Jews, says B16
    « Reply #8 on: March 10, 2011, 09:43:38 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    Granted, Ratzinger COULD conceivably change, he could become a Catholic, nothing is impossible with God.  But we don't have to pretend he's Pope while we wait for this desirable but unlikely event.  Just praying for him is enough.


    Agreed. There is no way this man can say the stuff he does and be a legitimate Pope. Lets pray that he becomes a Catholic and can truly be the succesor of Peter.

    Offline Baskerville

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    Church should not pursue conversion of Jews, says B16
    « Reply #9 on: March 10, 2011, 09:45:50 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    I'm totally floored. He truly has a warped notion of the early Church and salvation. Of course this is his "private opinion" say the Neo Caths. What insanity... Sigh


    Dont be too floored its Ratzinger after all one of the biggest libs at the council so hip and with the times he wore a suite and tie. :dancing:

    Not to mention being on Pius XII list of heretics.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Church should not pursue conversion of Jews, says B16
    « Reply #10 on: March 10, 2011, 09:54:16 PM »
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  • Do you have proof to back up that Ratzinger was on Pius XII's list of heretics?


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Church should not pursue conversion of Jews, says B16
    « Reply #11 on: March 10, 2011, 09:55:59 PM »
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  • Never heard that one, but it would not REALLY matter to you if it were true, stevus.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Church should not pursue conversion of Jews, says B16
    « Reply #12 on: March 10, 2011, 09:56:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    John XXII publicly shared his private heretical opinion and was still Pope.



    It had not been defined yet, genius :)

    Read up on these things BEFORE responding.  Thanks.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Caminus

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    Church should not pursue conversion of Jews, says B16
    « Reply #13 on: March 10, 2011, 10:21:09 PM »
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  • Believe it or not, the ecclesiological errors of ecuмenism haven't been defined either.  

    Offline Raoul76

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    Church should not pursue conversion of Jews, says B16
    « Reply #14 on: March 10, 2011, 10:40:29 PM »
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  • Ratzinger was on some kind of watch list of those suspected of heresy by the Holy Office under Pius XII.

    When you consider who Pius XII surrounded himself with, we're talking names like Cardinal Bea, Bugnini, Montini, and out of all these people who were soon to be infamous, it was Ratzinger who was on a watch list -- that should tell you a little something.  

     
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.