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Author Topic: CFP vs MHFM  (Read 3864 times)

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Offline DigitalLogos

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Re: CFP vs MHFM
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2022, 06:42:06 PM »
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  • The Dimonds already debated Steve Speray.  Just linking in case no one saw this yet, it was 8 years ago.



    I'm sure Dimonds will either challenge him to another debate or do a video on him.
    Thanks for sharing this. I was completely unaware that Fr. Fahey even made a heretical statement about how a Jєω who rejects Christ could be pleasing to God. :facepalm:
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: CFP vs MHFM
    « Reply #16 on: May 11, 2022, 07:49:17 PM »
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  • Thanks for sharing this. I was completely unaware that Fr. Fahey even made a heretical statement about how a Jєω who rejects Christ could be pleasing to God. :facepalm:

    Yes, that's how deep the rot went with regard to EENS and Catholic ecclesiology.  Father Feeney was largely alone to recognize this and battle against it (along with his followers of course).


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: CFP vs MHFM
    « Reply #17 on: May 11, 2022, 08:14:40 PM »
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  • Yes, that's how deep the rot went with regard to EENS and Catholic ecclesiology.  Father Feeney was largely alone to recognize this and battle against it (along with his followers of course).
    It's amazing how bad things were under the surface of the Church even in the first half of the 20th century. I didn't even suspect it until the past couple years. I naively thought that things just shifted from total orthodoxy to heresy after Pius XII when I entered into tradlandia.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline augustineeens

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    Re: CFP vs MHFM
    « Reply #18 on: May 11, 2022, 08:21:03 PM »
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  • It's amazing how bad things were under the surface of the Church even in the first half of the 20th century. I didn't even suspect it until the past couple years.
    A lot of sedes seem to have this false notion that everything was so orthodox in the 50s... Vatican II just came out of nowhere in their eyes. They basically think anything pre-VII with an imprimatur is 100% orthodox. Even if the imprimatur was from +Cushing...
    "Know you not that the friendship of this world is the enemy of God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of this world, becometh an enemy of God." (James 4:4)

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: CFP vs MHFM
    « Reply #19 on: May 11, 2022, 08:43:21 PM »
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  • A lot of sedes seem to have this false notion that everything was so orthodox in the 50s... Vatican II just came out of nowhere in their eyes. They basically think anything pre-VII with an imprimatur is 100% orthodox. Even if the imprimatur was from +Cushing...
    Yes, that's generally the same impression I've gotten from many trads (not just sedevacantists).
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline EWPJ

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    Re: CFP vs MHFM
    « Reply #20 on: May 11, 2022, 11:37:08 PM »
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  • Yes, unfortunately it goes back further than V2.  There are some who have done a lot of work on this issue and it opens up a lot more cans of worms than you could dream would be possible.   I won't link that stuff because if someone isn't thoroughly grounded in The Faith they will be swept up in a tide of radical opinions and ideas that I don't want to be (partially) responsible for. 

    The main thing we all need to do is try our best (through Actual Grace) to practice The Faith and live it each and every day and beg for all the necessary Graces you need to be saved.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: CFP vs MHFM
    « Reply #21 on: May 12, 2022, 06:52:24 AM »
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  • Bishop Williamson persuasively argues that the long process of rot started at about the Renaissance.  I think he's absolutely right.

    But, by the 1950s, the Church was in a furious expansion ... and yet it was deeply infected with Modernism.  If Pope St. Pius X said way back in his day that things were so far gone that the Church was, naturally speaking, finished, what should we think of the 1950s?

    People need to read the open heresy that was being spouted by Father Feeney's enemies.  We're not talking things where you can demonstrate it's heretical by using syllogism.  We're talking Cushing's "No salvation outside the Church?  Nonsense.  Nobody's going to tell me that Christ came to die for a select group."  And Father Feeney's Jesuit adversaries were just as bad.

    Speray lies in trying to characterize this issue as being all about BoD.  Father Feeney didn't address BoD until, I believe 1952, but he was solely about reaffirming the Church's thrice-dogmatically-defined dogma that there's no salvation outside the Church ... which was being OPENLY and EXPLICITLY and BLATANTLY denied.  When Father Feeney was excommunicated, the NYT headline was that "Catholic Church affirms that there is salvation outside the Church." (I'm sure the wording is a bit off, since this is from memory).

    Yet all these Trads uphold Cushing as some kind of hero, a defender of orthodoxy against the greatest heretic of our day, Father Leonard Feeney.  It's really disgusting, and I am incredibly disgusted with the SVs (it's mostly the SVs) who take the side of the heretics against Father Feeney.  If you listen to them, Father Feeney was a greater heresiarch than Martin Luther.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: CFP vs MHFM
    « Reply #22 on: May 12, 2022, 06:57:50 AM »
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  • Yes, that's generally the same impression I've gotten from many trads (not just sedevacantists).

    You're right that it's not JUST SVs, but the SVs are the most vocal and hostile against Feeneyism.  You'll occasionally see the SSPX argue against Feeneyism, but it's usually low key and I don't know them to refuse the Sacraments to Feeneyites; they simply ask Feeneyites not to prosletyze toward their position at SSPX chapels.

    As for thinking the 1950s were great, yes, there's a lot of that, but it's again much more vocal from the SVs.  That's because the SVs have a exaggerated view of infallibility, having gone too far in the opposite direction due to battling R&R all these years.  For them, Suprema Haec might as well be a dogmatic definition.  If something had an imprimatur in the 1950s, then it was to be treated as infallible for all intents and purposes.  I actually saw an anti-Feeneyite SV post this here on CI.  They actually make a mockery of the Church's infallibility and Magisterium with such nonsense.  Surprisingly, the Dimonds are quite balanced about that issue.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: CFP vs MHFM
    « Reply #23 on: May 12, 2022, 07:00:25 AM »
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  • Of course, just as the NO has done with "Lefebvrism", they turn Father Feeney's position into an -ism with his name as the root, to give the impression that it's some kind of breakoff sect based on something, as Speray falsely claims, that was "made up by" Father Feeney.

    "Feeneyism" is nothing more than affirming defined Catholic dogma in the sense in which it was taught ... along with a rejection of the speculative theology that there's something called Baptism of Desire that can substitute for the Sacrament of Baptism, thus undermining Trent's dogmatic definition that the Sacraments are necessary for salvation.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: CFP vs MHFM
    « Reply #24 on: May 12, 2022, 07:43:54 AM »
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  • Surprisingly, the Dimonds are quite balanced about that issue.
    Surprisingly, I'm finding that the Dimonds are more balanced about most issues than the majority of traditionalists. My only real issue is their swift condemnation of material heretics as formal heretics. And even then, Br. Peter made a good point in the video about how these priests have seen the dogma of EENS and should know that dogma, yet still allow Modernist ideas to the contrary to creep in.

    Bishop Williamson persuasively argues that the long process of rot started at about the Renaissance.  I think he's absolutely right.
    He is right. I first heard that idea from historian Michael Hoffman in The Occult Renaissance Church of Rome, which I never finished because I was scandalized by some of his personal conclusions about the Church.

    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: CFP vs MHFM
    « Reply #25 on: May 12, 2022, 08:03:32 AM »
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  • Surprisingly, I'm finding that the Dimonds are more balanced about most issues than the majority of traditionalists. My only real issue is their swift condemnation of material heretics as formal heretics.

    Same, and I also disagree with saying that Baptism of Desire is objectively heretical in all its forms.  It hasn't been condemned as such, and the conclusion that BoD is heretical comes from applying arguments to other defined dogmas.  That's the big problem.  As soon as one starts to make syllogism to have to prove something, it can no longer have the note of dogma (or conversely heresy) ... because there's an element of human judgment there.  Church has always tolerated BoD and has even canonized and, what's more, declared Doctors of the Church, men who believed in BoD (St. Thomas, St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Alphonsus), so it's impossible to argue that the Church considers all belief in BoD to be heretical (at this time).  It's fair to argue that most articulations of BoD as heretical and to contend that some day the Church will formally declare BoD in all forms to be heretical ... but the simple fact is that the Church has never formally condemned BoD speculation.  Consequently, all arguments about BoD have an element of human judgment and interpretation that preclude the note of dogma/heresy.

    MOST proponents of BoD do slide into other heresy, denial of EENS, Pelagianism, denying the dogmatic definition of Trent that the Sacraments are necessary for salvation, etc.  But I've run into an (admittedly rare) person here on CI (Arvinger was his screen name) who believed in a very strict understanding of BoD that did not labor with any of these issues.  In fact, in most BoD debates, he was on the side of the "Feeneyites" and arguing against the possibility of salvation without explicit faith, etc.  There are VERY FEW, and the VAST MAJORITY are implicitly herertical in their opinion.

    But the key litmus test of heresy is, in a nutshell, I know the Church teaches X but I don't believe X anyway.  As soon as you have people trying to argue that their positions are consistent with Church teachings, that prima facie indicates that that they care about being consistent with Church teaching and formally intend to accept.  You have these heretics in the Conciliar Church who say that kind of thing all the time, "Meh, I don't care what the Church teaches.  I don't believe that."  But I know of NO TRADITIONAL CATHOLIC who has that attitude and can therefore be accused of FORMAL heresy.  And I do agree with the Dimonds that there's often "bad will" there, that they reason they believe as they do is because they simply don't WANT to believe EENS in a narrow sense, but that "good will" or "bad will" is an internal forum matter that only God has the competence to judge.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: CFP vs MHFM
    « Reply #26 on: May 12, 2022, 08:09:51 AM »
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  • And, BTW, that's also the slippery problem for those who claim that BoD is dogma.  There's no definition of it anywhere.  We have dozens of variations on what it means, how it works, to whom it can apply, etc.  So presumably, if we are bound to believe something with the certainty of faith, exactly WHAT are we supposed to believe about it?

    If you take all variations on BoD, the only common denominator is the argument that the Sacrament of Baptism is NOT necessary for salvation.

    It's laughable to think there could be a dogma that must be believed with the certain of faith where nobody can agree on what it even means.

    Does it apply only to catechumens, only to those with explicit intention to be baptized (that was the context of Trent), to Prots somehow even if they are already baptized (a common false usage of BoD), unbaptized heretics, to infidels, to Great Thumb worshippers in the jungle?  What is this "BoD" that I must believe de fide and what must I believe about it?  I have no idea.

    As a Catholic you do not and cannot believe de fide some vague ill-defined concept.  Faith entails the embracing of a proposition, with a subject and predicate(s).  Nothing else can be grasped by the intellect.  I cannot believe in a vaguely-defined concept.  So what is the de fide proposition that I must believe, that the Sacrament of Baptism isn't necessary for salvation?  But that's a direct contradiction of the teaching of Trent.

    This would all be laughable if it wasn't so tragic.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: CFP vs MHFM
    « Reply #27 on: May 12, 2022, 08:27:26 AM »
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  • With all due respect, and I have a lot of respect for the saint, but St. Alphonsus blundered badly in claiming that BoD was de fide.

    He based this on two sources, a letter from Innocent II (or III) ... can't recall which, and Trent's passing reference to a votum.

    First of all, the letter of Innocent II was not infallible, as it was not addressed to the Univeral Church, but to a bishop.  Second, he was not teaching anything but opining and saying he was following the authority of Augustine and Ambrose ... in other words, not exerting his own papal authority.  And, most alarmingly for St. Alphonsus, that same letter declared that this "unbaptized priest" (a very strange situation) entered heaven immediately, and without delay, contradicting St. Alphonsus, who claims that temporal punishment remains after BoD (which is totally made up and has no proof from Catholic theology).  So St. Alphonsus himself explicitly contradicted a source which he claims was dogmatic.

    In a very similar letter to a bishop, Innocent III claimed that it was sufficient for a valid Mass for a priest to merely think the words of consecration.  St. Thomas Aquinas rightly excoriated him for that.  So why wasn't that infallible also?

    As for Trent, a mere passing reference to a votum for Baptism in an expository section of Trent does not make it a definition.  Trent clarified its definitions by issuing Canons, and a definition of BoD appears nowhere in the Canons of Trent.  There's no definiton of what it is, what must be believed about it, etc.  Even if you believe Trent is referrig to BoD here as a substitute for actual Baptism (I do not but believe that Trent was ... be back to that in a second), Trent is merely saying "it's not possible to be justified without the Sacrament or (at least) the votum for it."  In other words, it's saying that must AT LEAST believe that a votum is required to not be a heretic, leaving the question open and undefined as to whether it suffices.

    But Trent IMO is actually stating that BOTH are required, both the Sacrament and the proper intention/dispositions.  There's actually a Canon which declares heretical the belief that the Sacrament of Baptism can justify someone who is not willing to receive it.  I am absolutely convinced that Trent was teaching that both the Sacrament and the proper dispositions (votum) are required for justification.  To say that something "cannot happen without" is a very curious expression that speaks to NECESSARY cause but not SUFFICIENT cause.  While you can't bake a cake without flour and water, that doesn't mean you can bake one with JUST flour or JUST water.  Flour and Water are both NECESSARY, but neither one by itself is SUFFICIENT for baking a cake.

    Pope St. Siricius dogmatically declared that no one can enter the Kingdom of Heaven without the Sacrament even if they desire it.  This is as close to a dogmatic rejection of BoD sufficing for salvation that can be found.  I believe that the key here is to understand what the "Kingdom of Heaven" means.  St. Ambrose declared that not even martyrs who she their blood for Christ can be "crowned" without the Sacrament, i.e. enter the Kingdom, even if he held they could possibly be "washed" by desire.  That is where I hold that there can be a certain washing of the sensible punishment poena of sin by BoD, but not a crowning, i.e. entering the Kingdom, the Beatific Vision, without the Sacramental character that enables the supernatural faculty to see Go as He is (something which we lack by nature).

    I hold that a martyr who shed his blood for Christ without the Sacrament of Baptism would go to Limbo, without any sensible punishment for sin and would enter a state of perfect happiness.  Church decreed that in times of persecution the catechumens must be baptized even before they're ready.  Why?  If there's this dogma of BoB, then, well, if they died for Christ, they would go straight to heaven.  What's the point of it?

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: CFP vs MHFM
    « Reply #28 on: May 12, 2022, 10:30:13 AM »
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  • With all due respect, and I have a lot of respect for the saint, but St. Alphonsus blundered badly in claiming that BoD was de fide.

    He based this on two sources, a letter from Innocent II (or III) ... can't recall which, and Trent's passing reference to a votum.

    First of all, the letter of Innocent II was not infallible, as it was not addressed to the Univeral Church, but to a bishop.  Second, he was not teaching anything but opining and saying he was following the authority of Augustine and Ambrose ... in other words, not exerting his own papal authority.  And, most alarmingly for St. Alphonsus, that same letter declared that this "unbaptized priest" (a very strange situation) entered heaven immediately, and without delay, contradicting St. Alphonsus, who claims that temporal punishment remains after BoD (which is totally made up and has no proof from Catholic theology).  So St. Alphonsus himself explicitly contradicted a source which he claims was dogmatic.

    In a very similar letter to a bishop, Innocent III claimed that it was sufficient for a valid Mass for a priest to merely think the words of consecration.  St. Thomas Aquinas rightly excoriated him for that.  So why wasn't that infallible also?

    As for Trent, a mere passing reference to a votum for Baptism in an expository section of Trent does not make it a definition.  Trent clarified its definitions by issuing Canons, and a definition of BoD appears nowhere in the Canons of Trent.  There's no definiton of what it is, what must be believed about it, etc.  Even if you believe Trent is referrig to BoD here as a substitute for actual Baptism (I do not but believe that Trent was ... be back to that in a second), Trent is merely saying "it's not possible to be justified without the Sacrament or (at least) the votum for it."  In other words, it's saying that must AT LEAST believe that a votum is required to not be a heretic, leaving the question open and undefined as to whether it suffices.

    But Trent IMO is actually stating that BOTH are required, both the Sacrament and the proper intention/dispositions.  There's actually a Canon which declares heretical the belief that the Sacrament of Baptism can justify someone who is not willing to receive it.  I am absolutely convinced that Trent was teaching that both the Sacrament and the proper dispositions (votum) are required for justification.  To say that something "cannot happen without" is a very curious expression that speaks to NECESSARY cause but not SUFFICIENT cause.  While you can't bake a cake without flour and water, that doesn't mean you can bake one with JUST flour or JUST water.  Flour and Water are both NECESSARY, but neither one by itself is SUFFICIENT for baking a cake.

    Pope St. Siricius dogmatically declared that no one can enter the Kingdom of Heaven without the Sacrament even if they desire it.  This is as close to a dogmatic rejection of BoD sufficing for salvation that can be found.  I believe that the key here is to understand what the "Kingdom of Heaven" means.  St. Ambrose declared that not even martyrs who she their blood for Christ can be "crowned" without the Sacrament, i.e. enter the Kingdom, even if he held they could possibly be "washed" by desire.  That is where I hold that there can be a certain washing of the sensible punishment poena of sin by BoD, but not a crowning, i.e. entering the Kingdom, the Beatific Vision, without the Sacramental character that enables the supernatural faculty to see Go as He is (something which we lack by nature).

    I hold that a martyr who shed his blood for Christ without the Sacrament of Baptism would go to Limbo, without any sensible punishment for sin and would enter a state of perfect happiness.  Church decreed that in times of persecution the catechumens must be baptized even before they're ready.  Why?  If there's this dogma of BoB, then, well, if they died for Christ, they would go straight to heaven.  What's the point of it?

    Lad,

    That is probably the best post I've ever read defending an anti-BOD view. It takes into account two substantive objections - Innocent III's letter (relied upon by St. Alphonsus), and the "or desire thereof" of Trent in the context of the whole Conciliar treatment - and takes them apart logically, with the precision of a surgeon.

    A contrary argument based on Trent could be made, but I think you have totally destroyed using Innocent III's letter as magisterial authority for BOD.

    That being said, my main problem with the anti-BOD argument is the absence of support for it among theologians, members of the hierarchy that compromise the Magisterium for hundreds of years, etc.

    If the Church is in fact "indefectible" in its ordinary Magisterium, this presents a huge theological (and spiritual) problem, the type of theological problem reflected in the, let us say, tension  between infallible statements and logical inferences therefrom and the ordinary teaching of approved theologians and genuine members of the hierarchy in other areas, with primarily EENS coming to mind.

    Of course, this "problem" plagues many (mostly Trads) who grapple with the identify of the "magisterium" of the Church - what/where it is, what it's authority is, etc. - post V2 . . . glaringly post V2, though these problems were present before and were put into focus by V2, as Francis is another sharpening of focus compared to his predecessors (who manifested the same problems less glaringly).

    Anyway, excellent post.

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline bodeens

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    Re: CFP vs MHFM
    « Reply #29 on: May 12, 2022, 05:46:36 PM »
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  • Denzinger 368-387 do not condemn Abelard for a complete rejection of BoD at the Council of Sens, Denzinger 388 is that BoD priest I believe (the quoteBoD advocates go to)? Either way this does not address implicit BoD whatsoever, the Denzinger does not once mention the word "implicit". This podcast should address Abelard because if St. Bernard would have 100% have attacked him on this point if he could have.

    I think the idea of the implicit is the #1 enemy in traditional Catholic circles atm, for me this is the biggest attack on  EENS today among people who are and strive to be inside the Church. Feeney was smart to not to make BoD the main issue because EENS completely exposed +Cushing and other Americanist prelates.

    Also yes, this podcast doesn't even touch the "washed vs crowned" distinction, which Abelard followed. So they don't talk about arguments 800 years apart that follow each other but are not condemned when there is ample opportunity to do so. Would wonder how Speray would answer this.
    Regard all of my posts as unfounded slander, heresy, theologically specious etc
    I accept Church teaching on Implicit Baptism of Desire.
    Francis is Pope.
    NO is a good Mass.
    Not an ironic sig.