Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Catholic Faith or implicit faith?  (Read 6877 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Nishant Xavier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2873
  • Reputation: +1893/-1750
  • Gender: Male
  • Immaculate Heart of Mary, May Your Triumph Come!
Re: Catholic Faith or implicit faith?
« Reply #45 on: February 27, 2021, 08:30:37 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Hi DR. I'll get back later in more detail. I just want to say quickly, regarding Bp. Athanasius at least there's no doubt H.E. believes explicit faith in Christ is a necessary means of salvation. H.E. has said so many times in many places, and criticized the alternate view.

    Please see: https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/bishop-schneider-vatican-is-betraying-jesus-christ-as-the-only-savior-of-mankind
    And from SBC: https://catholicism.org/bishop-athanasius-schneider-sounding-athanasian.html

    Article: "Diane Montagna’s Interview with Bishop Athanasius Schneider (“Bishop Schneider says Vatican is betraying ‘Jesus Christ as the only Savior of mankind’”) has some gems in it.

    Below are three paragraphs with statements I consider particularly worthy of attention. The underlining is mine for emphasis.

    Quote
    [color=rgba(104, 104, 104, 0.87)]The Abu Dhabi Docuмent and the aims of the “Higher Committee” also considerably weaken one of the essential characteristics and tasks of the Church, i.e. to be missionary and to care primarily for the eternal salvation of men. It reduces the main aspirations of mankind to the temporal and immanent values of fraternity, peace and living together. Indeed, attempts at peace are destined for failure if they are not proposed in the name of Jesus Christ. This truth prophetically reminds us of Pope Pius XI, who said that the chief causes of the difficulties under which mankind is labouring “were due to the fact that the majority of men had thrust Jesus Christ and his holy law out of their lives; that these had no place either in private affairs or in politics.” Pius XI went on to say, “that as long as individuals and states refused to submit to the rule of our Savior, there would be no really hopeful prospect of a lasting peace among nations” (Encyclical Quas Primas, 1). The same Pope taught that Catholics “become great factors in bringing about world peace because they work for the restoration and spread of the Kingdom of Christ” (Encyclical Ubi arcano, 58).

    God created men for heaven. God created all men to know Jesus Christ, to have supernatural life in Him and to achieve eternal life. To lead all men to Jesus Christ and to eternal life is, therefore, the most important mission of the Church. The Second Vatican Council has provided us with an apt and beautiful explanation of this mission: “The missionary activity derives its reason from the will of God, ‘who wishes all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, Himself a man, Jesus Christ, who gave Himself as a ransom for all’ (1 Tim 2:45), ‘neither is there salvation in any other’ (Acts 4:12). Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church’s preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself ‘by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door. Therefore, those men cannot be saved, who though aware that God, through Jesus Christ founded the Church as something necessary, still do not wish to enter into it, or to persevere in it.’ (Cf. Decree “On Priestly Training,” 4, 8, 9.) Therefore though God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him (Heb 11:6), yet a necessity lies upon the Church (1 Cor 9:16), and at the same time a sacred duty, to preach the Gospel. And hence missionary activity today as always retains its power and necessity” (Ad Gentes, 7).

    In recognizing directly or indirectly the equality of all religions, through the spread and implementation of the Abu Dhabi docuмent (dated February 4, 2019) without correcting its erroneous affirmation on the diversity of religions, men in the Church today not only betray Jesus Christ as the only Savior of mankind and the necessity of His Church for eternal salvation, but also commit a great injustice and sin against love of neighbor. In 1542, St. Francis Xavier wrote from the Indies to his spiritual father St. Ignatius of Loyola: “Many people in these places are not Christians simply because there is no one to make them such. Many times I get the desire to travel to the universities of Europe, especially Paris, and shout from wherever, like a madman, to impel those who have more knowledge than charitywith these words: “Ay, how many souls, by your sloth, are denied heaven and end in hell!”
    [/color]
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 14209
    • Reputation: +4065/-1732
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Catholic Faith or implicit faith?
    « Reply #46 on: February 27, 2021, 08:34:27 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Good info. Thank you. 

    To live with the Saints in Heaven is all bliss and glory....To live with the saints on Earth is just another story!  (unknown)


    Online DecemRationis

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1366
    • Reputation: +470/-114
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Catholic Faith or implicit faith?
    « Reply #47 on: February 27, 2021, 09:08:37 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Xavier,


    Quote
    God created men for heaven. God created all men to know Jesus Christ, to have supernatural life in Him and to achieve eternal life. To lead all men to Jesus Christ and to eternal life is, therefore, the most important mission of the Church. The Second Vatican Council has provided us with an apt and beautiful explanation of this mission: “The missionary activity derives its reason from the will of God, ‘who wishes all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mєdιαtor between God and men, Himself a man, Jesus Christ, who gave Himself as a ransom for all’ (1 Tim 2:45), ‘neither is there salvation in any other’ (Acts 4:12). Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church’s preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself ‘by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door.

    Therefore, those men cannot be saved, who though aware that God, through Jesus Christ founded the Church as something necessary, still do not wish to enter into it, or to persevere in it.’ (Cf. Decree “On Priestly Training,” 4, 8, 9.) Therefore though God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him (Heb 11:6), yet a necessity lies upon the Church (1 Cor 9:16), and at the same time a sacred duty, to preach the Gospel. And hence missionary activity today as always retains its power and necessity” (Ad Gentes, 7).


    The "therefore," and what follows through the door of "though aware that God, through Jesus Christ founded the Church," is the great loophole that purportedly opens heaven without "knowing Christ" to those "not aware." 

    If St. Thomas said that a man in good faith seeking to do right and serve God will come to knowledge of the faith and believe in Christ by means of interior revelation by an angel if necessary, how could anyone be saved while "ignorant of the Gospel"?

    We need a simple "yea, yea" and "nay, nay" here, not this festering ambiguity that allows Christ to be believed in while at the same time He is evaded.

    Don't you not see this is not enough? This is duplicity masking itself as apparent orthodoxy. 

    You did not see this stuff in the Church until after around the Reformation or so. 

    Non enim omnes qui ex Israel sunt, ii sunt Israelitae (Roman 9:6)

    Online Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 33842
    • Reputation: +19895/-4226
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Catholic Faith or implicit faith?
    « Reply #48 on: December 02, 2021, 07:48:00 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Anyone who reads this thread - its docuмented proof and its irrefutable record - can see for himself or for herself that Last Tradhican is a shameless liar and a vicious slanderer for what he wrote in the Rev. Fr. Brian hαɾɾιson thread.

    I demand a public apology and complete retraction from him, if he wants to prove he is not a liar and a slanderer as he is.

    I think he's basing his statement on the fact that for a while you were defeding the implicit faith position as tenable because St. Alphonsus had referred to it as probable.  St. Alphonsus was wrong.  It's not the least bit probable.  Holy Office condemned the position.  Prior to that explicit faith had been taught universally, always and everywhere, from the beginnings of the Church, for 1500 years.  If that isn't a teaching of the OUM, then there's no such thing as a teaching of OUM.  There's also a little-known passage in Vatican I which teaches that the object of supernatural faith is something that can ONLY be known by Revelation.  Rewarder God CAN (and should) be known through natural reason.

    So, in any case, there was a time that you took such a strong anti-Feeneyite position that it definitely made it look like you were promoting implicit faith, and that caused the confusion.

    But in general, I agree that you hold the explicit faith position ... with which I have no problem.  My issues with Baptism of Desire were never primarily with a Thomistic / Bellarminite BoD, but rather with the assault on the requirements for explicit faith that invariably came with it.  99% of BoD formations are Pelagian and also reject Trent's teaching regarding the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation.

    I personally don't believe that there is such a thing as a Baptism of Desire that replaces the Sacrament of Baptism.  I believe in a Baptism of Desire (as per St. Ambrose) that can "wash" or remit the temporal punishment due to sin, but it cannot result in the person being "crowned" (the effect of the Baptismal character).  That crowning / marking is necessary to enter into the Kingdom (the Beatific Vision).  I hold as a personal opinion that an adult can by virtue of this BoD have the natural/temporal punishment due to sin partially or wholly remitted and therefore theoretically end up in a Limbo or near-Limbo state.  But it does not suffice for salvation, the Beatific Vision, entry into the Kingdom.  People have to realize that this is a SUPER-natural state that is owed to no one and is not even within normal human capability (the reason St. Thomas gives for why infants in Limbo suffer no pain of loss).

    Online Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 33842
    • Reputation: +19895/-4226
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Catholic Faith or implicit faith?
    « Reply #49 on: December 02, 2021, 07:56:34 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • It would be interesting to know what the anonymous down-thumber of my previous post disageed with.  Is it with the fact that I have no problem with someone believing in a BoD within the context of explicit faith, such as for catechumens?  While I do not agree with it, that is where the Dimonds err, in holding that to be heretical, whereas the Church has always allowed that opinion.  I think it is a mistaken opinion, but it leads to a schismatic attitude to hold that people who believe something the Church has allowed to be heretics outside the Church.  I wish that the Dimond brothers would back away from that position because they otherwise do a lot of good.


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8621
    • Reputation: +5211/-1632
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Catholic Faith or implicit faith?
    « Reply #50 on: December 02, 2021, 08:11:54 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    for a while you were defending the implicit faith position as tenable because St. Alphonsus had referred to it as probable. 
    Xavier, you have said many times, on many other threads, that implicit faith is "not condemned" or is a "valid opinion". 



    Quote
    Anyone who reads this thread - its docuмented proof and its irrefutable record - can see
    One thread does not tell the whole story.  On countless threads you have NEVER condemned implicit faith.  You have only said you think explicit faith is more accurate.  Preferring one thing, and not condemning the other thing, means you (on some level) agree with both.  You've been anything but clear, except maybe on this thread alone.  But this thread is meaningless compared to the 100s of other posts you've made on the topic.

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3321/-1937
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Catholic Faith or implicit faith?
    « Reply #51 on: December 02, 2021, 08:17:51 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • XavierSem is like a chameleon, taking different colors when needed. Words have no precise definition to him, so every word that he writes that sounds orthodox, does not necessarily mean what it is commonly understood to mean. Therefore, like the writings of JPII, B-16, the "spirit" of Vatican II, EVERYTHING that he writes has to be thrown in the trash bin. Rat poison is 99% nutritious food, one can't separate out the poison, so one has to throw it away.

    P.S.- In this case the word explicit does not mean the real explicit, he has many qualifiers for explicit. His belief in EENS is a Frankenstein made up of 100's of theories all mixed into a form that can change  by the minute!
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3321/-1937
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Catholic Faith or implicit faith?
    « Reply #52 on: December 02, 2021, 08:21:04 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • XavierSem is like a chameleon, taking different colors when needed. Words have no precise definition to him, so every word that he writes that sounds orthodox, does not necessarily mean what it is commonly understood to mean. Therefore, like the writings of JPII, B-16, the "spirit" of Vatican II, EVERYTHING that he writes has to be thrown in the trash bin. Rat poison is 99% nutritious food, one can't separate out the poison, so one has to throw it away.

    P.S.- In this case the word explicit does not mean the real explicit, he has many qualifiers for explicit. His belief in EENS is a Frankenstein made up of 100's of theories all mixed into a form
    that can change by the minute.

    THAT is why it is a waste of time to debate or ask him what he believes, it is opening a Pandoras box that will bring forth volumes of threads.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24