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Author Topic: Catholic dogma on salvation  (Read 17625 times)

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Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
« Reply #150 on: June 11, 2018, 07:48:03 PM »
St. Alphonsus completely misconstrues the authority of the "de presbytero non baptizato".  This was not a papal teaching to the Universal Church.  Otherwise, a very similar letter condemns as heretical his own teaching that people who are saved by BoD do not receive a complete remission of the temporal punishment due to sin.  St. Thomas excoriates the same Pope Innocent who in yet another similar letter promotes the heretical position that the Consecration at Mass can be valid even if the priest merely thinks the words of consecration.

As for the Council of Trent, the "cannot without" phraseology teaches necessary cause but not necessarily sufficient cause for justification.

I cannot stay alive without water.  True statement.   Does this mean that water alone suffices to keep me alive?  That I can live without also having food?  Of course not.  Same phraseology is used in Trent.
And what makes you think you know the mind of the Church better than he did? Who the heck are you to judge St. Alphonsus? Just out of curiosity, which sede group are you a part of?

Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
« Reply #151 on: June 11, 2018, 07:51:11 PM »
Then he'd be a heretic.  Except that he's not.  NOBODY in the New Covenant can be saved WITHOUT the Sacrament of Baptism.  Even if you speculatively posit the existence of BoD, EVEN IN BOD the SACRAMENT remains the instrumental cause of justification operating through the desire for it.  Otherwise, you'd be a Pelagian who believes that the subjective desire of itself can be salvific ex opere operantis.
Sure. No one disagrees with you there. He did teach that people could be saved without water Baptism


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
« Reply #152 on: June 11, 2018, 07:56:52 PM »
Sure. No one disagrees with you there. He did teach that people could be saved without water Baptism

That's still imprecise.  He teaches that people can be saved without the in re reception of water Baptism, or without actually receiving the water of Baptism.  "water Baptism" is merely synonymous with the Sacrament of Baptism.

In any case, if BoDers would be a little more precise in their language, they could at least avoid giving the impression that they reject Catholic teaching that the Sacrament of Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation by necessity of means.  When you use language like "without" or that people can be saved by a "substitute" for the Sacrament, that is scandalous and undermines Catholic dogma.  Post-Tridentine theologians were careful to state not that people can be saved WITHOUT the Sacrament but that they received the Sacrament in voto; they thought of it as a different mode of receiving the Sacrament.

If you formulated your belief in BoD this way, I would not bother arguing with you but would consider it little more than a polite disagreement regarding a matter of speculative theology.

Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
« Reply #153 on: June 11, 2018, 08:03:55 PM »
That's still imprecise.  He teaches that people can be saved without the in re reception of water Baptism, or without actually receiving the water of Baptism.  "water Baptism" is merely synonymous with the Sacrament of Baptism.

In any case, if BoDers would be a little more precise in their language, they could at least avoid giving the impression that they reject Catholic teaching that the Sacrament of Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation by necessity of means.  When you use language like "without" or that people can be saved by a "substitute" for the Sacrament, that is scandalous and undermines Catholic dogma.  Post-Tridentine theologians were careful to state not that people can be saved WITHOUT the Sacrament but that they received the Sacrament in voto; they thought of it as a different mode of receiving the Sacrament.

If you formulated your belief in BoD this way, I would not bother arguing with you but would consider it little more than a polite disagreement regarding a matter of speculative theology.
Sure. I don't bother to be precise because I've already put several hours into this silly discussion. Again, which sede group are you a part of? Dolan/Sanborn and the CMRI hold to BOD(Dolan has said it's a mortal sin to deny it)

Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
« Reply #154 on: June 11, 2018, 08:49:17 PM »
No, but God is not bound by the Sacraments. ( think of the thief on the cross, we have no evidence that he was baptized) In the Paradiso, Dante points out that God's ways are totally beyond our understanding. It's worth reading over.  
Really? Try using a chocolate chip cookie for transubstantiation. Silly statement that God is not bound by His sacraments.